Armor & Magic

[weltall]

first of all the different setting argument can be used also by me. so don't point that out. second the dampening is only 5% it's negligible.

[Bonifarzia]

I am not a friend of restrictive classes and mutually exclusive skill trees, and I think it is good to leave much freedom for everyone's choices of character progression.

[...] a concept of a spell failure chance based on the type of armour worn by the caster is likely a nice approach [...]

I think the point Ikon makes in the other thread concerning magic and combat is the most reasonable approach here. An overall reduction in spellpower (damage per hit etc.) is predictable and not favorable in a system where most spells hit their maximum power limit easily. An additive contribution to the probability of spell failure however can be a relevant penalty term.

[Mekora]

Disagree with this idea, yet it would be practical if people wearing a full set of HA would perform magic a good 25-50% slower. On top of that, HA really has to be nerfed again. It is still obscenely over powered, and it, as it is right now, makes dueling fairly unenjoyable.

[Caraick]

  There's no downside to wearing plate 

That is all.

[Tessra]

Adding to something Trav said... currently, a red way mage can cast electrotouch... and NOT shock the heck out of him/herself while wearing or carrying metal items.  This seems to somewhat violate the laws of physics, but then again, they can surround themselves with flaming spires and not be burned too, so, I suppose the catch-all answer would be "it's magic!"

If we're going to have a myriad of magical spells that go against physics, I don't see why we should nitpick on the armor with the spells.  Just examples: Rock armor should slow you down, but doesn't.  Water Barrier could possibly drown some races during casting, but doesn't.  Icy Blast should be very difficult for any warm-blooded race to accomplish without damage to the fingertips.  Necrotouch... skeletal hand coming back to flesh after, yeah... nuff said. I'm not saying this to pick on the spells or magics, as I love most of the spells.  I'm just saying.. IT'S MAGIC... and we shouldn't use it to pick on armor.  It allows for things to be done that couldn't otherwise be done, and allows for certain effects to be circumnavigated.  That being said, I don't see why there isn't a spell out there that would negate the weight of the armor entirely 

[Phantomboy86]

Dont add to my statement with the express purpose of disagreeing with it, that isnt adding at all, that'd be subtracting.

There IS a spell that reduces weight, its called Ant Weight and its in Brown Way. The reason your own magic isnt affecting yourself is because its YOUR magic. You're willingly make it not screw you over. Rock armor expressly states its WEIGHTLESS. Unless im remembering correctly, nothing about water barrier states its going directly in contact with your face so that you breathe it in.

None of this will ever get resolved though unless some settings dev has something in the settings docs about armors relation to magic, till then, have fun dealing with people who cannot be harmed due to their HA without any sort of consequence to anything else.

[thalaric]

Lots of games and settings have made justifications for why magic users can't use armor, but they usually don't stand up to intense scrutiny. E.g. if metal negates magic then why don't enemies wearing armour get spell resistance? Or if you are unable to make finite gestures in heavy armor doesn't that preclude swordplay and archery also? I always loved how Gandalf wielded a sword, though the archtype thereafter lost any martial ability. I think he could have worn armor if he wanted, but must have had his reasons.

Just an interesting tidbit, there's an article[1] that says the biggest drawback of heavy armor is fatigue. This gels with my own experience wearing plate for re-enactment. It's not a question of whether someone can run around and do crazy stuff wearing full plate - they absolutely can. Armor when worn correctly is comfortable and manoeuvrable (I have climbed a tree in it). The drawback is it quickly becomes hot, tiring and if you are wearing a helmet you lose visibility.

Each character should have to decide through cost benefit analysis if it is worth it. A warrior magic user might, but a roguish mage probably wouldn't. The trick is to reflect that in game mechanics and set limits so that focusing on one grants more mastery than focusing on both. It's not a 50/50 thing though, which means you suck at both, but more of a 70/70 thing. You can gain proficiency fairly quickly, but after the low hanging fruit it is mastered you get diminishing returns. That should go for all skills.

[1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14204717

[Bonifarzia]

[...] the biggest drawback of heavy armor is fatigue. [...] it quickly becomes hot, tiring and if you are wearing a helmet you lose visibility.

That summarizes it nicely. Once mental and physical stamina will be relevant factors in the arcane and martial arts, they could provide an intuitive and powerful mechanism to reflect the differences between wearing heavy, medium, light or no armor.

[Caraick]

Agreed, Bonifarzia. However, it would be important not to neglect the restriction of movement that heavy, full-metal plate imposes, as well.

[thalaric]

Bonifarzia, I agree wholeheartedly. Though, let us not forget that each individual piece of armor interlocked in such a way as not to hinder free movement.

I dunno, I guess when we directly contradict someone we pretend they never said anything and address a different person instead. That way we can speak from authority without the need for reasoning or reference.

[Chessire]

In DnD there is the concept of Concentration, when a caster is hit while casting they do a concentration throw to decide whether their spell is interrupted or not. Maybe something similar could be applied here, but using dexterity. When a caster is hit (by any type of attack) they pass a dexterity throw to see if they can keep casting under these cirumstances. Since HA reduces dexterity conciderably we already have a good reason for mages to avoid HA.
On the other hand, if someone wants to use both magic and HA no matter what they can still do it and train till they have great enough skill in magic and HA to make the penalty more affordable but without negating it.

[verden]

In my consideration of various takes on this subject, it would seem as though, in PlaneShift, it is important to consider the existing system as a whole. Meaning that it may not make sense to cap or limit individual skills such as HA but to consider it from the concept of Realm Balance. So that someone who works on HA, Crystal Way, and Agility would have very different possibilities and limitations from someone who focuses LA, Cooking and Charisma. The magical Ways that are already part of the settings provide a starting point for Balancing the Realms. That's all for now, thanks to all for keeping the drama low key in this post and your perspectives.

[novacadian]

In DnD there is the concept of Concentration, when a caster is hit while casting they do a concentration throw to decide whether their spell is interrupted or not. Maybe something similar could be applied here, but using dexterity. When a caster is hit (by any type of attack) they pass a dexterity throw to see if they can keep casting under these cirumstances. Since HA reduces dexterity conciderably we already have a good reason for mages to avoid HA.
On the other hand, if someone wants to use both magic and HA no matter what they can still do it and train till they have great enough skill in magic and HA to make the penalty more affordable but without negating it.

This seems like a nice solution to me. 

- Nova

[tman]

I think if you're looking for a disadvantage to make HA less powerful movement speed is an important thing to consider.  Then again this probably has less to do with the armor itself and more with the weight.  I think movement speed should be effected by both weight carried and armor worn.  After all, it doesn't make sense that a character can run full speed while carrying 150 kg but at 151 suddenly you can't stand up anymore.  I'm not suggesting anything too dramatic, maybe a linear increase up to 10% speed reduction if your inventory is completely full.  Also maybe 1% penalty for heavy boots, 2% for legs and 2% for torso.  Perhaps half as much for medium armor and little to no penalty (besides weight) for light.  This makes sense realistically and could add a new angle to gameplay.  If you're a thief or assassin you'll be encouraged to wear light armor and not weigh yourself down with a full inventory so you can (try to) outrun anyone chasing you.  Unarmed civilians would have an advantage of being able to outrun armored attackers (unless their inventory is full... miners would be particularly vulnerable).

Anyway, getting back on topic.  I do think that heavier armor should reduce either casting speed or probability of success at least a little bit.