Clues about Planeshift?

[Dali Llama]

Lots of good stuff here! I like the idea that the players need to help craft the storyline as they perform quests and what not. The devs have enough work to do without creating an entire world-encompassing storyline. However, since they know the game, and future plans for same, much more intimately than the player-base, they could at least craft the overall outline of where they see the game going for the players to then submit to them possible plot twists, quest ideas, et cetera; some of these player ideas will be doable, some won\'t.

I especially like the idea of keeping up with which player did what and noting that in either the library, spawning NPC dialog or something along those lines to help generate the further story. I also like the idea of unique quests and unique rewards. There is nothing sadder than seeing a game (DAoC jumps immediately to mind) where every player and their sibling has the same cloak, the same sword, the same Wiz staff, and so forth, because everyone has done the same quests for the same rewards. To me that cheapens the quest, the reward and the overall storyline.

XpYtZ had some great thoughts about quests and the lack of need to use an overall world-encompassing plot vehicle to accomplish plot twists and turns. Smaller quests that would add interest and keep things moving along nicely without one having to run all about the world in meaningless travel to do \"courier\" and \"bring me\" quests for little or no reward would be just what the doctor ordered. Trust me, I can explore the game-world I\'m in all on my own--I don\'t need some daft quest holding my hand through Orienteering 101...  

Something else that might go a long way toward realizing some of the ideas in this thread would be for the players to actually sit down and think about what part they want their character to play in the world based upon reading what characters and occupational specialties were available. Also, taking a good long look at how one plays an RPG and what they expect out of the experience would facilitate matters. They need to decide what kinds of skills they think they might wish to have to accomplish that character model/personality.

I realize you cannot even get most players to read a !@#$ FAQ before downloading and firing up the game and filling the noob threads with the same questions that have been asking since time immemorial (for every game they\'ve ever played, I might add... sheesh!). Be that as it may, if they would come up with a backstory for their character before creating it, they would have a much firmer grasp on the character and the world it is to live in.

Regardless of a storyline or overall plot, without the desire of the players to role play, there can never truly be a fulfilling game. Certainly we can all role play on our own, or with a guild of like-minded players. Be that as it may, it will take all of us making a concerted effort to help further the game plot to accomplish what is wished for in this thread.

Just my random thoughts on the matter, take them with a grain of salt...

Cheers!
Dali, a.k.a. Miago in-game

[Kiva]

Lots of good stuff here! I like the idea that the players need to help craft the storyline as they perform quests and what not. The devs have enough work to do without creating an entire world-encompassing storyline. However, since they know the game, and future plans for same, much more intimately than the player-base, they could at least craft the overall outline of where they see the game going for the players to then submit to them possible plot twists, quest ideas, et cetera; some of these player ideas will be doable, some won\'t.

You have to keep in mind that the devs - Darkmoon, to be precise - is still the one who sits down and writes tens of thousands of NPC responces, and he is also the one making all the quests and the rewards. Players will never be able to help with that. They just do the quests and say \"Hey, I help making the world\", where they actually just play the plot that was created a long time ago by Darkmoon. If they find some secret quest, then it\'s Darkmoon\'s work. If they help save the world, then that\'s also Darkmoon\'s work. Nothing that you do in any RPG happens because you do it. The plot of the story is always designed long before you\'re even allowed to be a part of it, and the only way you are a part of it, is by deciding which way to get the ultimate goal done.

As for this whole thread in general... I mean, come on. Find a hobby instead of slicing up every word you find, trying to discover the secret meaning of life, the universe and everything. Thinking about a game is okay, but this... This is just overkill.

[Kuiper7986]

this was supposed to be a \"fun\" thread. I just wanted to know if anyone came up with weird ideas but instead this thread came out fairly serious, though I don\'t know why...

[Dali Llama]

Originally posted by Gronomist
You have to keep in mind that the devs - Darkmoon, to be precise - is still the one who sits down and writes tens of thousands of NPC responces, and he is also the one making all the quests and the rewards. Players will never be able to help with that. They just do the quests and say \"Hey, I help making the world\", where they actually just play the plot that was created a long time ago by Darkmoon. If they find some secret quest, then it\'s Darkmoon\'s work. If they help save the world, then that\'s also Darkmoon\'s work. Nothing that you do in any RPG happens because you do it. The plot of the story is always designed long before you\'re even allowed to be a part of it, and the only way you are a part of it, is by deciding which way to get the ultimate goal done.

As for this whole thread in general... I mean, come on. Find a hobby instead of slicing up every word you find, trying to discover the secret meaning of life, the universe and everything. Thinking about a game is okay, but this... This is just overkill.

I\'ve read many, many of your thoughts and rebuttals while I\'ve been researching this forum and PS in general, Gronomist, and many of them are pretty negative as a general rule. Lighten up and have some fun with us instead of being such a naysayer all the time... . And I already have many hobbies; thank you very much for suggesting that I get another though... . I don\'t know why you have such a low opinion of players in general--some of them are pretty creative when they have an outlet, just as you and the other developers can be.

I\'ve been developing for years, Gronomist (not games, but all kinds of commercial software), and I have been following the evolution of Crystal Space for many years as well. In additon, I have played literally tons of RPG\'s, some good, some bad and some worthy only of being thrown away, truth be known. All I was trying to say is that since this IS an open source game, and since it IS early on in the writing and buildging of the engine and storyline mechanics, that in this instance it would be a perfect opportunity for players to contribute if they wished and help lighten the devs workload somewhat.

Just because the devs have always \"sat down and written tens of thousands of NPC responses, and always make all the quests and the rewards\" to paraphrase your remark from above doesn\'t mean they are the only ones with a word processor (and in fact some of them should not give up their day jobs according to some of the games I\'ve played over the years). Further, just because the reason you allude to as a way of justifying this remark is more or less: \"that\'s the way it\'s always been done\", I still put forth that it doesn\'t have to be that way if the devs decide to use player input instead of having to do it all themselves, Darkmoon in this instance, as you point out.  No one is trying to steal the dev\'s thunder, as it were, we\'re just trying to offer innovative alternatives, which, after all, are the lifeblood of any new game coming out in today\'s market. If you just want yet another EQ clone, so be it. But an open source, free game where the players help contribute to the quests and storyline is a singularly unique concept, don\'t you think? Obviously others thought of it before I did, but I wholeheartedly agree with them that it is doable to some extent.

Granted, not every player is able to program, or do convincing art for models, textures, meshes, et cetera, in 3DMax or whichever graphics program CS\'s designers are using. By the same token, not all of them can craft a creative, believable storyline. Nevertheless, that doesn\'t mean they\'re a bunch of idiots who can\'t write a plot or decent quest given a chance. I have seen many, many player submitted mods in various games that convince me thoroughly of this.

No one is trying to discover the meaning of life here, Gronomist, although I am a member of Folding@Home and SETI@Home... lol. We are all just stating opinions on things, which is what forum boards are for. Whether or not you agree with those opinions is irrelevant. It still gives you no inherent license to rain on anyone\'s parade for having an opinion or calling any given opinion \"overkill\"...  . Having said that though, those are your opinions and you have the God-given right to express them.

And to me, Kuiper, analysis and debate in threads such as this one are fun, fuel player interest, stimulate thought , boost player morale (well, when they don\'t get shot down all the time, that is... rofl) and are just very interesting in general. It\'s primarily the threads titled \"HEEEEEEEEEEEELP ME\" or \"WTF?!?!?!?!?!\" that I rarely bother to read. In fact, most of these should be removed to the \"I\'m an idiot and too lazy to use a search feature\" thread for my part--which is probably why I\'m not one of the moderators. I have a very low tolerence for those who ask the same questions someone else ask just a post or two ago. Instead of trying first and foremost to seek and find the answers themselves, they would rather just ask someone else to tell them how to do something. As Bill Ingval would say, \"If they\'d been carrying their sign, THEN we could have helped them\" because we would know going in they were stupid!

Cheers!
Miago

[Xordan]

Originally posted by Gronomist
You have to keep in mind that the devs - Darkmoon, to be precise - is still the one who sits down and writes tens of thousands of NPC responces, and he is also the one making all the quests and the rewards. Players will never be able to help with that. They just do the quests and say \"Hey, I help making the world\", where they actually just play the plot that was created a long time ago by Darkmoon. If they find some secret quest, then it\'s Darkmoon\'s work. If they help save the world, then that\'s also Darkmoon\'s work. Nothing that you do in any RPG happens because you do it. The plot of the story is always designed long before you\'re even allowed to be a part of it, and the only way you are a part of it, is by deciding which way to get the ultimate goal done.

Darkmoon didn\'t create my guild. He didn\'t create the history, although I suppose he gave the setting And he certainally won\'t create the path that my guild will follow. You don\'t seem to see that the devs only create the shell of the world. Sure, there\'ll be a storyline in the game, but that\'s just a very large general outline. The players dictate how the game\'s history runs, by roleplaying. That is the whole point of an RPG. If there\'s a large conflit between the guilds, then that becomes a part of the history if we RP it well. The devs don\'t make that, they just make the oppertunity for it to happen. You seem set of PlaneShift being your normal Hack \'n Slash mmorpg, just like most of the other ones out there, which is what it will become unless the players \'take control\' as such of the ingame happenings.

Originally posted by Gronomist
As for this whole thread in general... I mean, come on. Find a hobby instead of slicing up every word you find, trying to discover the secret meaning of life, the universe and everything. Thinking about a game is okay, but this... This is just overkill.

If you don\'t like it don\'t post, and let us get on with it. A mod should know better than to critisize others for having what we might see as fun.

[nobuo3317]

Wow. All these points are excellent. I wish more forums had message boards that were full of such long posts like these. I may not be contributing at the moment, but I AM eagerly awaiting the next release. Anywho, I hope some of y\'all have posted on the board for what you want to see in the game, cuz I especially would want the fight or flight aspect in the game. I would love to have an MMORPG where I actually had to defend my hometown, and if I didn\'t maybe I\'d become some kind of social outcast or something.

[Mezasa]

I really like the idea of a NPC remembering accomplishments!  Also having quests spawn off of other quests and UNIQU REWARDS. That would be simply, amazing. No game (at least not that I have played) has ever had a quest only ONE person could do.  If the ideas in this thread made it to the game, we would have a awesome game, but I see a flaw with the database thing. Imagine who much space it would take to store THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of quotes and scripts!  When this game gets popular, it would be very hard to store 5k - 20k character\'s accomplishments.

I just love the idea of defending your hometown. What game was that, BTW?

[Kiva]

Darkmoon didn\'t create my guild. He didn\'t create the history, although I suppose he gave the setting And he certainally won\'t create the path that my guild will follow. You don\'t seem to see that the devs only create the shell of the world. Sure, there\'ll be a storyline in the game, but that\'s just a very large general outline. The players dictate how the game\'s history runs, by roleplaying. That is the whole point of an RPG. If there\'s a large conflit between the guilds, then that becomes a part of the history if we RP it well. The devs don\'t make that, they just make the oppertunity for it to happen. You seem set of PlaneShift being your normal Hack \'n Slash mmorpg, just like most of the other ones out there, which is what it will become unless the players \'take control\' as such of the ingame happenings.

Well Xordan, whether you like it or not, your guild\'s game-related actions will always be limited by the possibilities ingame. Such as, you can\'t take over the world. You can be big, mean and nasty and kill all the players but that still doesn\'t entitle you as the owners of the world, simply because the game isn\'t programmed that way. Your guild isn\'t able to control NPCs either. So your guild doesn\'t have any affect whatsoever on the predefined quests and stories of PS, it only affects some people who\'re playing, but they aren\'t the game. They\'re just users of the game.

So you see Xordan. No matter how much you try to tell yourself that your guild is mighty and powerful, it can never be as powerful as you might want it to be. The game mechanics limit it.

(I\'ll add some more - if I remember it - later, when I get home...)


[Edit: Too tired... maybe later.] *Sigh*

[Xordan]

You\'re not seeing my point at all. I know that it\'s impossible to take over the world, as there would always be somebody there to resist, always an opposite. I forget about \'game mechanics\' when I\'m playing. They are meaningless. Via roleplaying a person can do anything they want, it doesn\'t matter if the game supports it or not. Just because I don\'t have a big flashing title above my head saying what I am, doesn\'t mean that I can\'t be it. You don\'t seem to be able to grasp that. When I play, I am that person in the game, not the person sitting infront of my PC. There is no game when I\'m playing, only the world, so only the world and the people in it can limit me. I can\'t jump off a 100 meter high cliff and survive... because the impact kills me, not because my hp is only \'103\' and I take \'104\' damage.

And my guild can become as powerful as I want it to, as there are no game mechanics when I am playing, only the limitations of the reality that it exists in.

[Androgos]

Originally posted by Mezasa
When this game gets popular, it would be very hard to store 5k - 20k character\'s accomplishments.

In technical aspects: HELL NO!
Have you seen the MB database? more than 250 000 accs (included linkdeads ), very many having atleast 1 crystal and stuff like that

The MySQL can take it, it won\'t be a problem

[Dali Llama]

Originally posted by Mezasa
I just love the idea of defending your hometown. What game was that, BTW?

I think the game you\'re thinking about is WISH, Mezasa. That\'s the only one I can think of off the top of my head where you had to defend your hometown. I\'m sure there are others, but that one jumps immediately to mind.

Originally posted by Androgos
In technical aspects: HELL NO!
Have you seen the MB database? more than 250 000 accs (included linkdeads ), very many having atleast 1 crystal and stuff like that.

The MySQL can take it, it won\'t be a problem

You go, Androgos! From a purely database standpoint, Mezasa, Androgos is, of course, correct. The data we are talking about storing here is miniscule when compared to real-world data that is stored by corporations every day about their accounts.

Some of the questions in this regard are: would the devs wish to code the game mechanics to handle this kind of data I/O. Would they be willing to entertain changing the storyline to include these kinds of issues into it. What we are discussing here can certainly be done, from a technical standpoint, but would require careful thought because of all the objects (NPCs, books, quest clues in different game locations, et al) that would be impacted by such changes. Would they be willing to go to that extra effort to make any of this happen? Who knows, only the devs could succinctly answer such questions.

And Gronomist, I realize the game/engine mechanics, as they exist at this moment, were not coded with these things in mind. Be that as it may, those same mechanics could be changed by simply adding objects, classes, data values, or changing existing ones--that\'s one of the benifits of working with an OOP language... .

You are complely correct in that there is nothing a player can do from an RP standpoint that is not allowed by the game/engine mechanics (other than in their mind,). However, what we are saying is that the game mechanics can be changed to accommodate things as the developers wish that to be done if the technology is capable of getting there from here. I say this last because our visions constantly push, and even outstrip, technology many times in our zeal to have the bestest, biggest, brightest game going...  

Since we appear to have reached an unfortunate stalemate with this tread, I shall back out of it now as it is turning into an argument of semantics at this point and therefore moot.

Cheers!
Miago

[Mezasa]

Really? Man, I figured it would be really expensive, but that\'s cool that it isnt!  Do yall think this is possible? Devs... Oh devs, I have a question.