Author Topic: Alternative Medicine  (Read 3930 times)

Parallo

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Alternative Medicine
« on: September 29, 2007, 12:14:10 pm »
So whats your take? Should the FDA, or your local version of it, allow people to market drugs without proper testing? Should anecdotal evidence suddenly become valid? Could market forces actually make real medice come out on top if unregulated? Chinese medicine, homeopathy, supplements. Anything! We need a nice serious discussion here again.
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hitancrias

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2007, 02:29:00 pm »
Personally I don't believe in alternative medicine and would probably never want to buy them. That's why I want alternative medicine to be clearly distinguishable from regular ones. Besides that, I don't think that alternative medicine are all that bad. Their big advantage is that they don't have any side effects (no cynicism).  If the placebo effect works, alternative medicine can be preferred over regular ones for low-level illnesses like flu, eczema or nauseousness, or to substitute pain killers. I also see no harm in their use where regular medicine don't provide a solution.

For serious illnesses, they should not be allowed to compete with regular medicine for obvious reasons. When the outcome can be so dramatic, people should not be allowed to become the victim of their ignorance. In the Netherlands, alternative healers are obliged to send people with life threatening deceases like cancer to the regular doctors, and they are prohibited to advice people to stop with regular medicine. Besides that they can freely advocate their own treatments, and I think it's good like that.
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Zan

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2007, 02:47:32 pm »
Market drugs without proper testing, definitely not. Anything that is shown to be harmful should not reach the market. Anything that is 'shown' not to work ... is another case since scientific testing is often still very biased. As long as it isn't directly harmful, I see no right for the government to forbid it's marketing. People should not be protected at the cost of removing their options, just because someone in charge thinks it is a bad option. They should be aided in making the right options for themselves and everything that is needed to do so should be available.

The FDA stands for western biomedical products, whatever it approves gets the label 'medication' and supposedly makes one better. If they could broaden their perspectives and understand that there is more to healthcare than treating the symptoms, now that wouldn't harm. I'm all for promoting 'alternative' treatments and general health aids like vitamin supplements, etc. Especially because it gives the poor people a chance to 'enjoy' these services as well through health insurance.

The problem however is inside the alternative medicine itself. There is little to no regulation, it's not so much about science proving or disproving the therapy has an effect. The real issue is that as long as something is 'unofficial', read: not approved by the government ... anyone can go around claiming to be an alternative healer. Some of those people are very capable and can definitely help people improve their lives .. even if it's not in the western way of thinking. But others are complete quacks that just see an easy way of scamming a few people out of their money.

As long as those bad apples can't be weeded out ... alternative medicine will never be officially accepted.
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Parallo

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2007, 06:46:03 pm »
People should not be protected at the cost of removing their options, just because someone in charge thinks it is a bad option. They should be aided in making the right options for themselves and everything that is needed to do so should be available.

If something is for sale alongside regular medication it lends it creditability in the eyes of the public. Generally people don't differentiate between the various options and therefore without the advice of a doctor take whatever they please viewing them all as equal.


If they could broaden their perspectives and understand that there is more to healthcare than treating the symptoms, now that wouldn't harm.

What do you mean by that? All I get is that they should treat the cause but outside of 'chi' and 'bad energy' I can't see what you're getting at.

I'm all for promoting 'alternative' treatments and general health aids like vitamin supplements, etc. Especially because it gives the poor people a chance to 'enjoy' these services as well through health insurance.

Sounds like dupping the public. Especially with the 's around enjoy.

As long as those bad apples can't be weeded out ... alternative medicine will never be officially accepted.

I hate to sound pessimistic but I doubt they will be. The only way would be to grant alternative medicine 'doctors' with licinces which is pretty much the government endorsing them.

For serious illnesses, they should not be allowed to compete with regular medicine for obvious reasons. When the outcome can be so dramatic, people should not be allowed to become the victim of their ignorance.
My opinion articulated perfectly.

In the Netherlands, alternative healers are obliged to send people with life threatening deceases like cancer to the regular doctors, and they are prohibited to advice people to stop with regular medicine. Besides that they can freely advocate their own treatments, and I think it's good like that.
I love that policy and had never heard of it till now. A very sensible people it would seem... In spite of the weed. (Joking! Couldn't help it, sorry.)
I suggest the statue of Laanx gets turned into a statue of Parallo <3. An NPC could never replace the huge hole he left in my heart when he died  :'(

Zan

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2007, 08:04:56 pm »
If something is for sale alongside regular medication it lends it creditability in the eyes of the public. Generally people don't differentiate between the various options and therefore without the advice of a doctor take whatever they please viewing them all as equal.

I think people who refuse to take the advice of a specialist when it comes to matters of health won't be much better or worse off in either case. In fact, I'd say a lot more harm can usually be done with regular medicinal products being taken without consulting a doctor than most alternative products. Of course that is the reason why most medication can only be gotten with a prescription. All in all, alternative treatments tend to have less side-effects than regular ones, leaving the actual effect aside.

Either way, what I'm getting at is that we should make knowledge available, from all sides and information clearly accessible for everyone. Sure that's utopic and in reality people with money problems will always be screwed but if I had the answers to poverty I wouldn't be hanging around these forums. I also agree with what Hitancrias said, being able to distinguish between what has been shown to be effective and what hasn't been shown to be effective by science.

If they could broaden their perspectives and understand that there is more to healthcare than treating the symptoms, now that wouldn't harm.

What do you mean by that? All I get is that they should treat the cause but outside of 'chi' and 'bad energy' I can't see what you're getting at.

What I mean by that is that western medicine has a rather narrow scope on the concept of illness. They focus on the physical issue, practically ignore the mental one and completely ignore any possibility of an energetic concept. A lot of alternative methods see the three combined. Now if an alternative healer tells you they can treat the physical component better than western medicine .. I'd call him a liar. At that same note if a western doctor, specialist or whatever stands still to look at the whole, instead of just that one thing a patient has been diagnosed for, he gets a lot of respect from me.

We were once asked what we understood under "healthy" in a class. Most people answered "not sick", which is our western view on the matter. That professor elaborated on that with saying that being healthy is about a certain standard of living being attained. A person diagnosed with fatal cancer can easily feel very healthy when they wake up on a given day (this is assuming they are not put on chemo or radiotherapy). While a person who has no diagnosed illnesses whatsoever can still feel unhealthy and unwell. Health in the west is about symptoms, alternative medicine's view on health is more often about a state of living.

I have experience in both areas, I work in the western biomedical science field and I have an interest in alternative medicine, especially the oriental views. I'm not going into detail about either on here. I'm just saying that both sides are better off learning from eachother, not trying to compete with or invalidate eachother. Both regular and alternative medicine have their negative topics, just like they both have things that are good and do help.

Sounds like dupping the public. Especially with the 's around enjoy.

I put those apostrophs there so that people could fill in the meaning of that sentence to their own desire, you obviously have chosen your meaning. ;)

I hate to sound pessimistic but I doubt they will be. The only way would be to grant alternative medicine 'doctors' with licinces which is pretty much the government endorsing them.

I agree completely there. The only way to make alternative medicine better regulated is by losing the alternative part. For that to happen a lot of bias needs to be lost first and then a whole lot of research needs to be done along most likely resulting in a load of additions to our current scientific knowledge about the human being.
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Parallo

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2007, 12:32:18 pm »
Either way, what I'm getting at is that we should make knowledge available, from all sides and information clearly accessible for everyone. Sure that's utopic and in reality people with money problems will always be screwed but if I had the answers to poverty I wouldn't be hanging around these forums. I also agree with what Hitancrias said, being able to distinguish between what has been shown to be effective and what hasn't been shown to be effective by science.

I'd be wary of that. It reeks of the teach the controversy approach to teaching creationism. If you have clearly contradictory messages coming from each side and say its showing people the differences then that means that to the average person it seems like there is a controversy and the scientific concensus is split 50:50.



What I mean by that is that western medicine has a rather narrow scope on the concept of illness. They focus on the physical issue, practically ignore the mental one and completely ignore any possibility of an energetic concept. A lot of alternative methods see the three combined. Now if an alternative healer tells you they can treat the physical component better than western medicine .. I'd call him a liar. At that same note if a western doctor, specialist or whatever stands still to look at the whole, instead of just that one thing a patient has been diagnosed for, he gets a lot of respect from me.

We were once asked what we understood under "healthy" in a class. Most people answered "not sick", which is our western view on the matter. That professor elaborated on that with saying that being healthy is about a certain standard of living being attained. A person diagnosed with fatal cancer can easily feel very healthy when they wake up on a given day (this is assuming they are not put on chemo or radiotherapy). While a person who has no diagnosed illnesses whatsoever can still feel unhealthy and unwell. Health in the west is about symptoms, alternative medicine's view on health is more often about a state of living.

I have experience in both areas, I work in the western biomedical science field and I have an interest in alternative medicine, especially the oriental views. I'm not going into detail about either on here. I'm just saying that both sides are better off learning from eachother, not trying to compete with or invalidate eachother. Both regular and alternative medicine have their negative topics, just like they both have things that are good and do help.

I think we have a fundamental disagreement in our premises. I would take the view that everything has a naturalistic explanation and that mental is a product of physical. We have phsyciatric doctors for mental illnesses anyway. I don't see how the energy and all that could exist without a mechanism. Also, what I'd take from the anecdote is that being healthy and feeling healthy are different things.
 

I put those apostrophs there so that people could fill in the meaning of that sentence to their own desire, you obviously have chosen your meaning. ;)

I'm a bit of a cynic :P
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Zan

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2007, 02:26:07 pm »
The thought of alternative medicine contradicting science is merely based on ignorance. I see no relation whatsoever with creationism. Science knows how evolution and the creation of the universe occured, so it is valid in saying that creationism did not occur. It does not know how some alternative medicinal techniques can work, it still says they are not working. Do you see the essential difference?

Your view of everything having a naturalistic basis is dangerous. You create causality where there is a clear correlation. Causality is something very hard to prove. To me there is no point in saying that one or the other is the basis, they are all responcible and they should all be treated for an optimal result. Also keep in mind that the scientific knowledge of hormonal and electric signaling that occurs in our brains, which is your naturalistic basis, is in a very very early stage at best. In other words, we haven't even begun to comprehend how a minimal change can affect who we really are or what all is possible.

Which brings me to your second point ... who says that energy has no mechanism? I'd claim it has a very distinct mechanism. In the orient the knowledge of the energetic body has existed far longer than our western medicine. It's been studied, shared and investigated by so many people who dedicated their lives to it. A system that everyone agrees on has been developed, which has been worked out in great detail. Then that knowledge seeped over to our world and from our scientific view we turned a system that makes complete sense to so many into 'magic'. That's exactly the bias I've been talking about in my previous posts. Eastern medicine is simply written in a different language, that of meridians, chi and chakras. But over here they tend to take it all literal, instead of trying to translate it into a western scientific viewpoint. It's the same as reading the bible literally, instead of seeing it as a book about morals.

I know there have been some studies that suggest that the chinese meridian concept, which lies at the basis of accupressure, accupuncture and a lot of other eastern medicinal methods, does have a physical mechanism. Most of the accupuncture points lie on highly innervated locations in the body. Meditation and accupuncture, heck even massages have been shown to cause widespread physiological changes, not only in our brains but throughout our bodies. Alteration of the magnetic body, that is created by our electric and ionic processes, by use of strong magnets have been shown to cause changes in our physiology. Many possible explanations have been hinted at, none really investigated in depth.

Take it from me, Parallo, the scientific community is very biased and, just like the larger community, it has trends. These trends ensure that science moves in a certain direction and everyone who wants to go in a different direction will usually be 'destroyed' by sheer peer pressure, not always because there is no proof .. but often because their peers do not want to see the proof. This is why I am confident that alternative medicine can become scientific, if the community only drops it's bias and really tries to investigate how it works. I'm not naive enough to believe that this will be happening any time soon though.

Also like I already said, not all alternative medicinal practices are good in my eyes. There is a lot of 'fraud' going on because of the lack of regulation. I'm a cynic too ;) But a cynic who keeps an open mind and does not discard something based on a lack of knowledge.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 02:30:58 pm by Zan »
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Parallo

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2007, 02:46:26 pm »
Its like creationism because there are two sides and only one can be right. Presenting both on an equal place creates the idea that there is 50:50 chance of each being right and that there is an actual controversy where there is a majority of scientists saying they have no effect. It says they are not working because the same effects can be had with a sugar pill. All that I hear standing for alternative remedies is anecdotal evidence. It cannot be repeated in a satisfactory fashion. If you would applying the criteria that it has to be proven to work before you say it works a bias then fair enough.

The naturalistic thing, sure, we don't know enough yet but the way it apperars is that the mind and body are the same entity. And the claims about energy; well you see when I say that what I mean is that we know veins carry blood because veins and blood exist. There is no conclusive proof of any physical thing transporting 'chi' or 'energy.' If there is please link me to it because I am actually open minded. I just happen to think that science is the best way to establish answers.

I'll look at any proof and every single person that I have discussed this within the scientific community would too. The fact that you would paint with such a wide brush is something I take issue with. I have yet to see any decent studies on any of these modalities which showed any effect.
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Zan

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2007, 03:52:04 pm »
The naturalistic thing, sure, we don't know enough yet but the way it apperars is that the mind and body are the same entity. And the claims about energy; well you see when I say that what I mean is that we know veins carry blood because veins and blood exist. There is no conclusive proof of any physical thing transporting 'chi' or 'energy.' If there is please link me to it because I am actually open minded. I just happen to think that science is the best way to establish answers.

Exactly! The mind and the body are the same entity, as is the energetic body ... the problem of the western world and also your problem is that you're taking things too literal, too narrowminded. Mind, body and energy are three different points of view on the exact same thing. Don't stare yourself blind on the words energy and chi. Why insist on distinguishing them from eachother then? That's what I'm trying to say here ... we should work towards uniting the different viewpoints into one, take what's good from all of them, drop what's bad or confusing and create a larger total picture.

I have the feeling that you idolize science and scientists. It can definitely create answers but not nearly all answers and not always correct answers either. I am a scientist because I believe in science, without doubt but I also keep it's flaws in mind and there are plenty. Which is only normal because science is still done by humans and we all know we're flawed :P

In this case, the scientific community simply has barely bothered to look for answers. It prefers to write things off as false even before investigating. If they actually do experiments it is only based on the effect, not the possible underlying mechanisms. And I won't deny that the effects that can be obtained with alternative medicine are most likely inferior to those with western medicine. But that does not mean alternative medicine is useless or doesn't work.

Cleaning your house with a vacuum cleaner is a lot more effective than using a broom, yet still almost any house will have at least one broom around. Both have their limitations and sometimes the situation calls for an alternative approach.

Let me ask you some questions ...

Why do you feel that alternative medicine and western medicine contradict eachother? I don't understand how you got the idea that they are opposites? I find them to be complementary, if anything.

Also what bothers you about me 'painting with a large brush'?


Since you want proof I bothered to look up some articles quickly, like I said there aren't many and I really don't feel much for reading them in-depth on a sunday afternoon but here they are.

Study on accupuncture
Second study on accupuncture and herbalism
example of western and alternative treatment working together
Study on herbal medicine
...

there is a lot more where that came from too.


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Parallo

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2007, 04:14:05 pm »
That is very interesting but from the amount I've seen of things like this not working I'd prefer a meta analysis showing effectiveness across the board rather than in isolated studies. Often you have a group of researchers setting out to prove something and they disgard the negative studies and seek to publish the ones showing effectiveness. Often you get lack of proper procedure in alternative research which can't be identified just from the report. There was alot of that in psychic research anyway.


As for the questions:

I see them as being different because one works whereas the other doesn't.

And as for the brush, I'd say that not every scientist ignores evidence for things. In fact I'd say the opposite. Thats the point of science. Without looking at evidence and drawing conclusions from it it would be a fairly dull job :P

a disclaimer: If I sounded or sound annoyed or anything at any point, I'm not. You're a good friend and I missed you by the way.
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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2007, 05:04:37 pm »
I'd prefer a lot more than just a meta analysis, a whole lot more, starting with fundamental research into the underlying mechanisms, which I'm still convinced of to be there. If I had a few billion dollars up my sleeve I'd consider starting with that all myself but sadly I'm poor and without a job right now :P Treating all different branches that fall under alternative medicine as one is not the way to go either. Also what you said is true, but works just as well the other way around. Sometimes a group of researchers is out to disprove something and they disregard the positive studies. That's one of the main weaknesses of science we always have to be aware of. No matter what, scientists are human, humans are biased.

I obviously disagree with alternative medicine not working but I'm going to stay away from that discussion, everything I'd like to say about that I've already said. Still difference does not necessarily equal contradiction.

I see what you mean with the brush comment now and I agree with you. I took an extreme point of view to counter what I saw as an opposite extreme point of view, coming from you. Reality can be found in the middle, as always.

I never got the feeling you were annoyed by the way. And I hope you didn't get that from me either ... neither of us is going to convince the other here, simply because we lack knowledge. That's alright though, I liked this discussion .. it's been a while since I had a good mature discussion. Best way to learn, not only about eachother but also about yourself, if you ask me. Now I'm going to leave it at this though, no point in arguing eachother to death. Oh and don't worry, just because we have different opinions doesn't mean you can get rid of me :P I'm still tying your behind down as soon as you think about leaving again!
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LARAGORN

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2007, 05:31:11 pm »
"...Alternative and herbal medicine has been around for centuries. In fact, there have been numerous cases of evidence showing that herbal medicine has been in use as far back as the Neanderthal period some 60,000 years ago. Other evidence of using herbs for medicine have appeared in cave paintings that are estimated to have been made between 13,000 and 25,000 BC. Most of our modern day synthetic prescription drugs have been based on natural substances and capabilities found in plants.

Now, many people argue that herbal remedies and medicines are not valid, because there have not been enough scientific studies performed to prove or disprove claims. Herbalists, people who specialize in herbal medicine, feel that a lot of the attempts to discredit herbal remedies and cures are brought on primarily due to money.

Pharmaceutical companies are not able to patent a natural medication, so the wide spread use of these herbal remedies would essentially put them out of business. Since they would be unable to corner a market and charge outrageous amounts of money for prescription only medications if herbs were too widely used, they must create synthetic versions in order to remain in profit. And they must discredit herbs for use in various medical treatments, in order to keep people buying their prescription medications instead..."
The rest of this article found here;
http://www.herbalmedicinekit.com/2007/05/25/intro-to-herbal-health-care/

Here are a few more links to some interesting reading;

http://www.planetbotanic.ca/fact_sheets/fact_sheets.htm

http://www.expresspharmaonline.com/20060331/research02.shtml

Here is a page with a few good links to more info;
http://www.katolenyardley.com/Resources_HerbalMedicine.htm


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Parallo

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2007, 07:06:41 pm »
No, no, no! Not this big pharma stuff! I'm sorry but I'm really not in the mood for conspiracies. I'd go insane!

Anyway I agree totally with you Zan about wanting more. I meant I'd prefer it to the few links to stand alone studies you gave me. I also agree with pretty much everything else you said. Also, are you not still in college? You're not ment to have a job if you are :P
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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2007, 08:13:07 pm »
lol, Why is it that anything that says a bad word about mainstream anything is labelled a "conspiracy" ok ok no insanity inducers today.

Although it will be difficult to talk about this without bringing up the suppression of info, I will try. I do think we do need more regulation of natual health products and practicioners, but it needs to be done correctly. This is no small task as the costs of unbiased research will be gigantic and then some, as already said.
I would always preffer to have something that mother earth has provided for me than something made in a test tube, but as it is now that is not always an option. Availability and regulations are limiting factors for most in my corner of the world.
Shoot I have to go, but will finnish this later....

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Zan

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Re: Alternative Medicine
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2007, 10:03:42 am »
Nah, I graduated this year Parallo ... hence the job looking.
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