OOC aspects of the Warriors vs. Prophets of Chaos war

[Elvors]

This thread is for discussing real-life aspects of the war that the "The Warriors" are going to declare on "Prophets of Chaos".
(It is a replacement for the in-character war announcement that immediately got turned into an OOC discussion. I hope that OOC stuff can be confined to this thread.)

I am from The Warriors, and will be presenting our side. I'll try to be as objective as I can, but my allegiance will naturally influence my perspective, if only because I'm talking more to "our side" than "their side".

History of the conflict

Dlayo pit

Initially, I think this started with Asonoh killing people in the Dlayo Pit.
The Dlayo Pit in the arena is one of the two player-vs-player areas in the game. PvP means you can attack, you don't need to challenge.
He was using Flying Stones at level 150. This spell will defeat any player within five to six seconds. I think most victims never saw what hit them.
Then he cast another damage-dealing spell, sending them to the Death Realm, so they'd have a long journey back to the arena and a 30-minute wait until the curse would wear off. Talk about a ruined evening.

I heard Asonoh wasn't the only Prophet of Chaos to do that. (Vannaka has denied this. First-hand testimony on that issue would be interesting.)

Asonoh was told this would mean war, but he laughed it off. (Asonoh has been described to me by a PoC member as "an evil player playing an evil character".)

Other people's reactions

I wasn't entirely convinced that such a war would be appropriate at that time. What convinced me was the almost uniform distate that my in-game friends shared for Prophets of Chaos. The general consensus was: "that was about time!"
PoC have been described to me as cheaters, arrogant towards newbies, powerlevellers, and some stronger words. I don't believe every word of that (after all, it's really easy to start a rumour), but these allegations are certainly a sign that they are very much disliked.
On second thought, most people stated they are befriended with some specific members of PoC. As always, the closer you look, the more details you see.
On third thought, many added "but this has gone to far, and I will kill him/her/kra for this!"
So the consensus that I have been seeing is that PoC in general need a lesson, some likable members notwithstanding.

Camp Banished

The second thing that I found bad was PoC killing people at Camp Banished (the rogue camp near Hydlaa, a bit off the road to Ojaveda). It's the other PvP area in Planeshift.
PoC claim that they are roleplaying a bunch of rogues and thieves establishing a lawless area in Camp Banished.
I can understand that this has aggravated quite a lot of players. After all, the camp is a source of quests and loot. People don't like to be cut off from resources. On the other hand, not being able to go everywhere is actually exactly in line with roleplay: you don't go where you can get killed easily.
However, the way PoC have been doing this isn't in order. Even thugs and thieves don't kill on sight. Not even on their own turf. They are making too many enemies too quickly that way. So this isn't good roleplay either.
Vannaka has claimed people get a warning. If that's the case, the warning isn't done in proper terms: either he meant the signposts (which are plenty, but not everybody reads, nor can every character read), or the escalation from "warning" to "you're dead" was too quick. Any thug will start with threats, then wound, then kill. It's particularly easy in PlaneShift, where you can defeat a player, then need another attack to send him/her/kra to the Death Realm. I'm pretty sure most players will quickly retreat if they are defeated.
In fact, I once observed Asonoh and Vannaka dealing with an intruder. Asonoh killed the intruder without even saying a word. (I don't know what happened on /tell, of course, but if PoC were really roleplaying, at least something should have been on the Main tab. If they roleplay, then only within the guild; outsiders just get to see the powerlevellers.) Vannaka didn't even remark the episode, so I must assume he was in agreement with Asonoh's course of action. (In his defense, it must be said that he was distracted by a discussion with a group of us Warriors, who were standing just outside the camp. Still... if roleplaying were an as vital aspect of Camp Banished as he has been saying, he didn't live up to his statements at that time.)

Counterarguments

Unfair

One last aspect: Vannaka said that PoC are facing an attack of overwhelming forces, and that this isn't going to be fun for either side.
I believe that he is half mistaken: if it weren't fun for our allies, they wouldn't participate.
And if it isn't fun for PoC: well, they're being fed their own medicine there. After all, it's exactly what they're doing with unwanted Camp Banished visitors: a warning, then killing.

Masking

Vannaka claimed that the war cannot be in-character, because any PoC member in Camp Banished changed his/her/kras description to "I am masked".
While I have to admit I didn't check the descriptions, this argument does not hold: they are in the camp on a regular basis, and as any policeman can confirm, somebody always drops the ball and forgets the mask. Besides, my character knows Allola well, since she was about the first character in Yliakum that he met; he had also talked to her just a few days ago in the tavern. He should be able to recognize her from body language and voice, particularly because Allola's situation at Camp Banished was more than she could handle (I'm slightly stronger than her, and she didn't get reinforcements and found herself unable to impress me out of the camp).
I'm pretty sure similar arguments could be made for every other PoC members.

Not in-character

One part is correct: we shouldn't be declaring war on a guild, we should have announced that as a police action in a part of Yliakum where Octarch power does not reach. Sorry, my bad - I had thought Prophets of Chaos were doing this Camp Banished thing officially.
As a remedy, please consider the guild war declaration as a technical OOC vehicle to make the action flow smoothly.

[Ausuna]

I fully agree.

And I'm really sorry that,

on one hand, some people do nothing about it in game and says, "if you go into PvP zone, it's your own fault."

on the other hand, the same people swear to improve rp experience.

Their deeds are not attended to in the game,

but the thread here is closed.

And when we even have not the place to say something, many can only leave game,

or come back to the game and max all their skills,

which is sooooooo good for the rp they're talking about.

~Bless~


Please dont double post just use the modify button

I heard Asonoh wasn't the only Prophet of Chaos to do that. (Vannaka has denied this. First-hand testimony on that issue would be interesting.)

Yes, some other PoC do that too. But they say something before kill you (although kill you anyway) and apologized when they know you are really mad.

So I'm Ok with that so far.

Asonoh is the kind that will say nothing before killing you, but say something after killing you.

What he says? Oh I reported him, haven't I?

*Ausuna giggles*

Others do not kill, but will watch, and would say, Asonoh is my guildie, what can I do?

Like we should all be greatful they do not join him.


But, any organization should be responsible for its member's behavior.

LOL, if you bombed some country, your motherland would be titled as supporter for what?... lol off topic

[Vannaka]

Don't have a lot of time to post right now, but some brief explanations for you...

Dlayo pit

I heard Asonoh wasn't the only Prophet of Chaos to do that. (Vannaka has denied this. First-hand testimony on that issue would be interesting.)

I don't deny that he is the only one to have ever killed someone in the dlayo pit, only that he's the only one that does it regularly and without reason.  I believe one time, and only one time, the prophets had a guild combat excersize, where our assignment was to see how long we could hold the dlayo pit for.  but once again, during the excersize, we made it known that we would engage anyone who entered, and didn't simply sneak attack people without letting them know what was up.

Then he cast another damage-dealing spell, sending them to the Death Realm

It's particularly easy in PlaneShift, where you can defeat a player, then need another attack to send him/her/kra to the Death Realm. I'm pretty sure most players will quickly retreat if they are defeated.

I think you misunderstand the way mechanics work in a pvp area.  It's not like a normal duel where you have the option to spare your opponent's life.  Your character deal as much damage as possible and the enemy is killed without falling to the ground defeated first.

Any thug will start with threats, then wound, then kill. [....] In fact, I once observed Asonoh and Vannaka dealing with an intruder. Asonoh killed the intruder without even saying a word. [....] In his defense, it must be said that he was distracted by a discussion with a group of us Warriors, who were standing just outside the camp.

I cannot speak for others, since i'm not at the rogue camp 24/7, but i never killed a player unless they attacked me first, or ignored at least 2 warnings.  I quite often do wound them after ignoring a warning, with a small spell or two, in hopes that they will flee.  Perhaps the reason the player you refer to was killed by asonoh was because there was an army of warriors gathering just outside the border of the camp... that's bound to cause anyone defending it to be a little on edge.

Also, on a side note, you should be aware that the prophets of chaos have actually been trying to spark a war.  We decided planeshift was getting a little bit dull, and a nice EVEN war would spice things up a bit.  The war certainly has spiced things up a bit, but it turns out it's not in a good way because fighting an even match would mean a chance of losing, and some guilds just can't handle it.

[Prolix]

'I am masked?' Kill all masked people. Start a war? no control over who your opponents can rally to their side.

By the way, act like an insane psychopath, qualify for the true death if you are caught. Sounds like COACT needs to circulate a petition to the Ochtarch for capture and elimination of such people. The arena is in Hydlaa and so within his jurisdiction.

[Dajoji]

Like I said before: players are not to teach other players a lesson. You know why? Because you can't. What? You think that if you kill them a couple of times they will be sorry for being jerks? No. They will just get their fix for attention and kill you back when they get the chance. Being a jerk is a self-inflicted condition and it can only be reversed by the jerk himself. So, good luck with that.

If your intention is to annoy people who annoyed you and ruin their time in-game, it can constitute harassment and it will get you banned. And that goes to everyone involved.

This war will not solve anything and it will not make PS any more fun.

If you want to start a war because you want to enhance RP, just like you would with any other player event, you should take your time to prepare the IC grounds for it and that means working with those you're planning to go against in the first place. Yes, work it out OOC, make sure that the war is fun for everyone, despite who loses and that once it's over, all players will have had a good time.

If your idea is "Oh, let's have a war so we can pwn everyone!" you're off with the wrong foot and all it will bring will be OOC arguments just like this one. If you can't have an event without OOC crap taking over, you should really rethink how you're throwing your player events because you're not doing it right.

[Elvicat]

If you want to start a war because you want to enhance RP, just like you would with any other player event, you should take your time to prepare the IC grounds for it and that means working with those you're planning to go against in the first place. Yes, work it out OOC, make sure that the war is fun for everyone, despite who loses and that once it's over, all players will have had a good time.

If your idea is "Oh, let's have a war so we can pwn everyone!" you're off with the wrong foot and all it will bring will be OOC arguments just like this one. If you can't have an event without OOC crap taking over, you should really rethink how you're throwing your player events because you're not doing it right.

i concure... i for one was in a war in the olden days that was prepered like this, with ooc discussion before anything was started, the war was the sapere magi against the outlaws and from what i could tell most had fun even if i wasn't in on it all the time anyway the end resoult was a pretty ok fight.
Here's some reading for the interested, and if nothing else maybe some guideline on how to do it properly
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26159.0

[Under the moon]

PoC has been advised on rules of criminal conduct at the camp. They have been instructed not to interfere with anyone dealing with the NPCs through quests beyond demanding -reasonable- fees for entry into the camp, and killing those who refuse to pay the fees (injure first, though, to prove they can be hurt). This is realistic criminal behavior, as the rogues own the camp, but the PoC are strong enough to enforce rules. Anyone who attacks the rogues in the camp are fair game, and no RP is needed to attack and kill the aggressor. The camp is not just "a source of loots". Look at it like PoC protecting their buddies. Killing on sight is bad for business, and should not be done if the intruder is not a known aggressor. Some of those you are killing could be possibly be recruited as well.

As for raids on the camp by goodies, this is also realistic. However, criminals standing and fighting are not. At the first sign of a raid, criminals should scatter to the wind. If you are attacked and killed in the camp, your 'masks' could be removed before you fade, and then you are in trouble.

'Good guys' should not be going to the camp to do quests or just to 'check it out'. Crossing the tracks into the bad side of town is just asking for trouble in any situation. Standing right outside the PvP border is also bad RP.

We do not have the ability to easily move the camp right now, as would be the most realistic. A permanent camp would not last long, as the Octarchy -does- have power everywhere. The set camp is a sacrifice we have to make at the moment. All goodies should not 'know' the location of the camp as if it were common knowledge and someplace they visit all the time. Guards would be just as suspicious of those who have ready knowledge of the camp's workings as those who are actually criminals. Anyone who does business with the rogues (in quests) will also be under suspicion.

In the end, use common sense, folks. The Camp is meant to be a refuge for 'bad' characters. If it was not PvP, we would have the same situation we haver everywhere else... players staring at each other giving threats, and neither side able to do anything about it.

If you don't want the risk: "Don't go there."

[Elvors]

PoC has been advised on rules of criminal conduct at the camp.

As far as I can see the picture, the main problem seems to be that PoC aren't executing their part of the deal well enough.

In order of increasing relevance:

• Ominous (and entirely unhelpful/uninformative) "this is a dangerous place, leave it as quickly as you can" /tells. No information on the actual dangers. No clues provided beyond what the game actually gives. That leaves room to interpretation, including unwanted ones. I suggest reworking the conventions on what is being said to uninvited guests.
• Roleplay towards outsiders is limited. Granted it's difficult to get that going if those outsiders are already pissed off OOCly... and I do acknowledge that there has been roleplay when I was there alone, and not of the worst quality either (but still unsatisfactory for the other reasons in this list).
• At least one PoC member blatantly ignoring all roleplay, and killing people without warning. From a roleplaying point of view, it's actually not too unusual for a thug society to have its share of sociopaths - however, those higher up in the food chain usually keep those sociopaths under strict control, via strict punishment (since nothing else will work). I think PoC is not exercizing this kind of control, making the roleplay of the situation far less good than it could and should be.

Currently I think PoC is making some honest attempts at roleplay. (I have been told that this hope is misplaced. I'm willing to risk being wrong on that, as there isn't much I have to lose that way.)
I also think that PoC should put a lot of work into improving their roleplay, so that it will become fun for those outside their guild.
As I wrote elsewhere: be friendly and cooperative OOC even if you're nasty and wicked IC.

BTW I liked the thread that Elvicat linked. That must have been a very nice IC war.
I think many people have an OOC axe to grind with PoC to make it happen in this war - possibly too many to allow such a kind of war this time.
Besides, there is too much OOC mistrust against PoC for that kind of war to work well. If there's a no-potion rule, I'm pretty sure a substantial fraction of PoC adversaries would not believe PoC in sticking with that rule... and buy potions "just in case", and probably use them at the first hunch of a potion taken by a PoC member. Again, won't work this time, like it or not.
Maybe next time. It would be nice if it could happen.

[Vannaka]

If there's a no-potion rule, I'm pretty sure a substantial fraction of PoC adversaries would not believe PoC in sticking with that rule... and buy potions "just in case", and probably use them at the first hunch of a potion taken by a PoC member.

I'm pretty sure Plank does plan on working out some sort of "no potion rule" for whatever this blossoms into, and i'm also pretty sure that PoC would stick with the rule.  PoC members have rarely used health potions at all in the past, and have discovered a new-found hatred for them just recently because certain characters we have had to fight enjoy carrying around 200 of them in their back pocket somewhere.

[Birot]

I must weigh in on this, i consider myself a warrior you know a person who fights with blades, not throwing some magical item thru walls and trees but someone who stands and fights face to face. And as a warrior i would find it stupid not to carry health potions, i know mages carry mana potions so i see no difference, if you want a no potion fight come face to face with me and we battle with weapons till the end, or we just battle potions and all makes no difference to me

[Ausuna]

This is what happened today. I even do not know him.

I do not like where this leads. From now on, I would refrain from posting.

As Dajoji stated,

"If your intention is to annoy people who annoyed you and ruin their time in-game, it can constitute harassment and it will get you banned. And that goes to everyone involved."

I've no problem ignore certain tells from now on. But I'm really confused. Is playing evil much easier, and being evil has a free pass to annoy others.

Probably it's my fault. But next time Ausuna will kill and say nothing more.

[no logs without other peoples' approval  --neko]

[Sktn]

"What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas".
here should be the same, with variations.

this last message don't help at all at the discussion and it's pointless, because playing with logs can be a bit "dangerous" if we all start to post ours, so i will formally ask to the moderator to remove the latest post here because i find it a bit unethical, reminds me of junior high school when the squealer was around.
About the war between the "bad" guys vs the "good" guys, i think that the good are not so good and the bad are not so bad, in fact now i'm starting to doubt which role is playing each side.

Yours truly

P.S: Ausuna, you've forgotten the name of the other char.

[neko kyouran]

Like I said before: players are not to teach other players a lesson. You know why? Because you can't. What? You think that if you kill them a couple of times they will be sorry for being jerks? No. They will just get their fix for attention and kill you back when they get the chance. Being a jerk is a self-inflicted condition and it can only be reversed by the jerk himself. So, good luck with that.

If your intention is to annoy people who annoyed you and ruin their time in-game, it can constitute harassment and it will get you banned. And that goes to everyone involved.

This war will not solve anything and it will not make PS any more fun.

If you want to start a war because you want to enhance RP, just like you would with any other player event, you should take your time to prepare the IC grounds for it and that means working with those you're planning to go against in the first place. Yes, work it out OOC, make sure that the war is fun for everyone, despite who loses and that once it's over, all players will have had a good time.

If your idea is "Oh, let's have a war so we can pwn everyone!" you're off with the wrong foot and all it will bring will be OOC arguments just like this one. If you can't have an event without OOC crap taking over, you should really rethink how you're throwing your player events because you're not doing it right.

PoC has been advised on rules of criminal conduct at the camp. They have been instructed not to interfere with anyone dealing with the NPCs through quests beyond demanding -reasonable- fees for entry into the camp, and killing those who refuse to pay the fees (injure first, though, to prove they can be hurt). This is realistic criminal behavior, as the rogues own the camp, but the PoC are strong enough to enforce rules. Anyone who attacks the rogues in the camp are fair game, and no RP is needed to attack and kill the aggressor. The camp is not just "a source of loots". Look at it like PoC protecting their buddies. Killing on sight is bad for business, and should not be done if the intruder is not a known aggressor. Some of those you are killing could be possibly be recruited as well.

As for raids on the camp by goodies, this is also realistic. However, criminals standing and fighting are not. At the first sign of a raid, criminals should scatter to the wind. If you are attacked and killed in the camp, your 'masks' could be removed before you fade, and then you are in trouble.

'Good guys' should not be going to the camp to do quests or just to 'check it out'. Crossing the tracks into the bad side of town is just asking for trouble in any situation. Standing right outside the PvP border is also bad RP.

We do not have the ability to easily move the camp right now, as would be the most realistic. A permanent camp would not last long, as the Octarchy -does- have power everywhere. The set camp is a sacrifice we have to make at the moment. All goodies should not 'know' the location of the camp as if it were common knowledge and someplace they visit all the time. Guards would be just as suspicious of those who have ready knowledge of the camp's workings as those who are actually criminals. Anyone who does business with the rogues (in quests) will also be under suspicion.

In the end, use common sense, folks. The Camp is meant to be a refuge for 'bad' characters. If it was not PvP, we would have the same situation we haver everywhere else... players staring at each other giving threats, and neither side able to do anything about it.

If you don't want the risk: "Don't go there."