Author Topic: Crafting, leveling, practice points  (Read 2693 times)

mickra

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Crafting, leveling, practice points
« on: May 07, 2010, 02:19:42 pm »
Regarding this and Xillix' advice to stop complaining and offer something better instead.

The problem with skills (I only talk about crafting skills here) is not that leveling is too long. The problem is it's too b-o-r-i-n-g. Why? Plain and simple, because you guys made it lacking any sense, pointless, completely mathematical/mechanical in nature. No feeling, no pride, no sense of achievement. No game. Just try to utter the word 'boring' 300 times in a row, you'll feel what I do about my high-level smelting, aside from my swollen wrist (a small hint: i feel like an idiot).

To raise from level X to level X+1. Stamp 150 blades for this weapon group. Smelt 300 stocks of that. No matter how they all turn out, who cares, only numbers really matter. THIS is the ultimate source of boredom, the mindless ceaseless point, click, drag, click, point, drag, point ... ... ...n process. This is what most people complain about. Mature people, I mean, and it's not about age anyway.

Let it be as long, make it even longer than it is now (nothing like a good challenge!), but please, by the gods, put sense back in it. Craft is about making quality things, so, by the gods, make it quality-based, bind it back to its natural, believable, enjoyable roots.

For weapon-making. To raise from level X to level X+1. Make a qYZ blade. One. Not 150 ones of any q, "any-crap-will-do" things. One blade, but better than I ever made before. Progress, eh?
Use your evil dice to ensure I won't be able to make a blade of such quality in less than 130 and more than 170 tries, no matter what I work on. There goes your beloved 150 number, just don't throw it in my virtual face so blandly. Also make some tiny adjustments to the amount of practice points given for improving things. My alpha blade better than the stock/ingots I made it with? Much better? More practice points. A little bit better? No bonus. Worse? No bonus or no practice points at all (depends on how strong your guys' hate love for us flows).
Also, make practice points non-anonymous: "you gained 0.12 practice points in..." is better than "you gained some practice points in...". Some is not enjoyable, always the same and it doesn't feel like something, it feels like nothing. By hiding my progress from me you don't make me more interested, really.

Then the moment comes when I actually make the blade of that YZ quality.
I take it in my hands (or paws), I feel pride.
I bring it to a trainer smith and give it to him/her/kra, the smith says something ranging from "Not that good, but you'll make better if you keep working. Next lesson now?" to "Not bad, not bad. You've been working hard, I see. Want to learn more?", and the darned training window pops up, and I feel joy. I feel I earned that. By making something better.
I made more practice points in the process than this level requires? Save part of it as a bonus for my next, X+2 level. It won't unlock anyway until the next objective is fulfilled. Or, maybe even better, also make it transferable between similar skills and, if my sword-making bonus practice points amount to something really huge, let me get one level in knife-making instantly by spending my bonus (and, of course, money and PP) on it. It will give me that wonderful, warm and fuzzy feeling of being in control and making decisions that really matter, another reward for all my hard work.

You can only roleplay what you feel, what you care about. Nobody cares about 'x similar operations'. Let me care not about how many times I clicked my mouse button, but about my blade, about my ingot, about what I make with my char's hands. Or paws.

And let it be hard as hell, harder than it is now. Fine! More realism, more commitment and more reasons to stand up to the challenge.

That all being vented, I'm still a great fan of the game, craft included. That's my why, Virginia :)

[edit: typos again]
« Last Edit: May 08, 2010, 05:07:48 am by mickra »
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Rigwyn

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Re: Crafting, leveling, practice points
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2010, 02:54:28 pm »

For Chist's sake, let crafters make something unique and add their own inscription. Let them stick on glyphs or some sort of poisions or chemicals/potions  for added kick.
That would be really cool.

Yes, some eleven-teen year old noob with make a sword called something really stupid like "l33tb0yz antimatter infuz3d h3Ad bust3r !!! --=((goatse))==- YO MICKY B ON-DA MIKE! peace OUT foo ! " In real life people do have the freedom to create truly stupid things and look dumb as a result. The solution to dealing with items that have out of setting  references is to ban them and destroy the item. Zero tolerance.



mickra

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Re: Crafting, leveling, practice points
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2010, 03:10:22 pm »
Rigwyn,

I absolutely support the inscription idea, and if you check this older thread out you'll see my input there, but... it has absolutely nothing to do with leveling and practice points. So please... You're not a crafter, so I suppose you simply don't know what it takes to make it from 84 to 85 in smelting. Or from 36 to 37 in making swords. How painfully mind-numbing and boring it is atm, no matter what awaits you in the end, more and more levels away.

I'm talking about practice and leveling only, not about what additional features some or the other skill should offer by itself. So unless you're suggesting to add 1 more inscription symbol with every new level gained, it's for some other topic, I believe.
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Rigwyn

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Re: Crafting, leveling, practice points
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2010, 04:23:30 pm »
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You're not a crafter, so I suppose you simply don't know what it takes to make it from 84 to 85 in smelting. Or from 36 to 37 in making swords.

What , I need to have level in 85 in smelting or 37 in sword making to express an opinion ?

Peh... I gave up on crafting and smelting well before hitting that point ( in the 20's I think - don't remember ). I know quite well just how boring it is to work on blades and to smelt regardless of which level I hit. Training higher than this would not give me further insight on the matter.

Crafting in PS sucks. I'm sorry, but thats the truth. You sit there all day working on blades and all you get out of it is a higher random number. Yes, you can sell those items with higher numbers for a lot of tria once you can make top quality items.  Thats all they are good for. You pay the game by sacrificing your time and attention for the ability to make valuable items, and then hope to recover your losses later. 

Unless you have autism or obsessive compulsive disorder, this is no fun.

Thats why I say, to make crafting enjoyable, give the crafter some creative freedom. As a customer I'de much rather buy a sword that looks physically different, has special buffs, and a cool name. in fact, I would pay a significant premium if it was work of art.

kaerli2

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Re: Crafting, leveling, practice points
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2010, 05:38:50 pm »
...

Unless you have autism or obsessive compulsive disorder, this is no fun.

...

Heck, I can't stand power crafting...and I fall into what you mentioned above LOL.  :P

mickra

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Re: Crafting, leveling, practice points
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2010, 06:18:50 pm »
What , I need to have level in 85 in smelting or 37 in sword making to express an opinion ?

NO.
All I meant was that your right wrist supposedly never felt as bad as mine does after every next met level. So you may know it in your head, or you may just think you know, but you'll never feel it like that. Quite an experience, I assure you!

My point is: no matter what items you are able to make through craft in the end, it won't be less boring to level in it.

Heck, I can't stand power crafting...and I fall into what you mentioned above LOL.  :P

Rigwyn, see what you've done? It's not about leveling and practice points anymore. It's another part of the bigger problem, not the one I'm addressing. It won't help here. Make another thread about spells and inscriptions on weapons, I'm ready to add my loud 'yes' to yours and Kaerli's yesses.
Or maybe I've got you wrong and you would like to see enchanted named ingots as well?  ;D
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Candy

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Re: Crafting, leveling, practice points
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2010, 06:41:30 pm »
Mickra and Rigwyn both have brilliant ideas about crafting. Please, do something like that (particularly the part about being able to customize your weapons) and change the current, mind-numbing system for it.

While we're on the topic of crafting skills, it'd be nice if the books for 'em were actually readable. Maybe instead of the jumble of "(verb) x (material) to make (result)" in a disorganized mess, it could look something like this:

(Finished Weapons):
Heat x (ore) to make x (molten ore)
Cool x (molten ore) to make x (ingots/stocks)
Hammer x (ingots/stocks) to make (weapon part)

(Next type of weapon, listed in the same format)

Or for cooking, alchemy, etc:

(Finished Dish/Drink/Potion):

(Heat/Simmer/Boil) x (material) in (container)
Slice y (material)
Mix y (material) into (Heated/Simmering/Boiling material)

And then have a section called something like "preparation", that also gives organized lists, ie:

Water
(heat) x (water-related item) into (heated water-related item)
(heat) x (heated water-related item) or y (water-related item) into (hotter/bigger water-related item)
etc

Fruits
(peel) x (fruit) into (peeled fruit)
(slice/core/seed) x (peeled fruit) into (sliced/cored/seeded(seedless?) fruit)
etc

Bringing the ideas that Mickra stated for making weapons could probably easily be applied to the other crafting skills as well. Just an addition to the whole bringing your personal-best weapon to the trainer when you make it, perhaps bringing a sub-par one could result in them telling you off?  ;D
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 06:45:04 pm by Candy »
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Rigwyn

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Re: Crafting, leveling, practice points
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2010, 07:05:52 pm »
Quote
perhaps bringing a sub-par one could result in them telling you off?  ;D

That would be hillarious.. Perhaps even having different reactions based on the NPC's personality and your faction points ( assuming that factions are known to the npc ICly).

I do agree with Mickra that having the NPC reward the player verbally would be a very nice touch.


mickra

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Re: Crafting, leveling, practice points
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2010, 08:19:13 pm »
While we're on the topic of crafting skills, it'd be nice if the books for 'em were actually readable.

Them books make me crazy. I try to avoid reading them unless it's absolutely needed. I'm afraid to even try to express my opinion on that, it would come out as very, very much not PG-13.
That's why I second what Candy said without actually reading it. No matter what is done to the books, it won't make them worse. It's already... no, I better don't  :-X
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scotty110

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Re: Crafting, leveling, practice points
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2010, 02:45:39 pm »
what i'd really like to see also is the crafting books to be more organized than they currently are, right now it's all alphabetical, combining items, hammering, heating, quenching, etc. the problem with that is trying to piece together a single recipe for one of the finished products, it would get worse when you get higher levels and learn how to make things with other metals (or ingredients for cooking/alchemy).

the books should be organized more like an actual recipe book, for example the working with stock book:

Steel smelting/
combine 9 iron ore and 1 coal
or
combine 8 iron ore and 2 coal

heat into molten steel in the furnace
cool 1 molten steel in stock casting for 1 steel ingot
cool 10 molten steel in stock casting for 1 steel stock


then do that for each of the other metals so they're all separate.

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weltall

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Re: Crafting, leveling, practice points
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2010, 03:37:59 pm »
what i'd really like to see also is the crafting books to be more organized than they currently are, right now it's all alphabetical, combining items, hammering, heating, quenching, etc. the problem with that is trying to piece together a single recipe for one of the finished products, it would get worse when you get higher levels and learn how to make things with other metals (or ingredients for cooking/alchemy).

the books should be organized more like an actual recipe book, for example the working with stock book:

Steel smelting/
combine 9 iron ore and 1 coal
or
combine 8 iron ore and 2 coal

heat into molten steel in the furnace
cool 1 molten steel in stock casting for 1 steel ingot
cool 10 molten steel in stock casting for 1 steel stock


then do that for each of the other metals so they're all separate.



we know and we have planned even better solutions than those which are being suggested (like how you see an index in pdf) but it needs time which no one has right now to spend on this. if someone knows c++ he's free to contact me if he wishes to improve this.

scotty110

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Re: Crafting, leveling, practice points
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2010, 10:58:10 pm »
hehe, i just noticed that mickra and candy both made the same comment before i did, guess i should either learn to read more or wait till i've had my coffee in the morning before reading the forums:)
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