Hi everyone,
I know some of you may have read my post regarding Knives and Daggers here :
http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37912.0, but I thought I'd expand on the points I brought up there, and create a more comprehensive discussion on the subject of the unbalance in the combat system currently in PS. The goal here is not to whine and complain, but rather to try and highlight a few imbalances that I see in the system, and give practical solutions, where I can, that I feel would help make the system better, and more realistic. I don’t give out directions or complain without presenting a way that it can be fixed, or how it can be done, so I’ve tried to do my best in being constructive in my criticism, and providing reasonable solutions to any issues.
Most importantly: If any of you know me, you know I LOVE this game, and I don't want to be heard like I'm just complaining and whining. All I'm doing is trying to voice a few problems that I think are present in the system, and see if anything can come out of it. I appreciate everything that the Devs have done with this game, and I'll say again what I've said many times: Nice job, Devs, keep up the great work
Sections1. Weapon Usage, Damages and Damage Types- Swords
- Daggers/Knives
- Ranged2. Armors- Light
- Heavy3. Weapon Training- Maximum Levels
- Basic Weapon Training1. Weapon Usage, Damages, and Damage Types
---Swords---The first of two weapons that I'll look at here is swords, focusing specifically on Claymores and Longswords. Now, I feel somewhat qualified to talk about sword usage, because I used to do fencing for a few years back when I was a bit younger. I fenced foil and sabre, and also dabbled in the historical fencing stuff for a little while, with a few two-handed weapons, rapiers, and other antique swords. Unfortunately, we don't really have an equivalent to a rapier in PS, but we do have sabres. Now, for any of you out there who've used an antique sabre or broadsword similar to those in PS, you know that in most of your strikes, at least with a sabre or broadsword, are done with the edge of the blade in a slash or cut. However, you're also making stabs with the point of your blade with the shorter weapons, excluding falchions. Now, it seems all too obvious to look at the slashes and cuts as, well, slash damage, and the stabs as pierce damage. Every armor has different resistances to slash and pierce, and it would seem only realistic to include both types of attacks, at least for applicable swords. System messages could be structured like this: Player X slashes Player Y on the torso for 133.45 damage! Player Y stabs Player X on the arms for 124.68 damage! And so on... Following with this line of thinking, depending on the area of the person attacked with a different type of attack, the attack could be easier or harder to block or dodge. For instance, a slash at a players feet would be much easier to dodge than it would be to block a slash at the players torso. This would, at least in my opinion, make the combat system much more realistic, especially for swords in particular.
Back to the specific subject of swords, and my focus on claymores and Longswords. These two weapons are similar in a few aspects, the most paramount being that they're just flat out huge. I don't know if any of you have held a claymore or a two-handed longsword, much less tried to swing one, but you immediately find out that it takes two hands just to properly hold the weapon, much less use it effectively. Even if you factor in superior strength and size of some races like the Ynwnn or Kran, you're talking about handling two 7lb swords that typically are around 55 inches (140 cm) long. Longswords tend to run a bit smaller, being as long as 4 feet (110 cm), and weighing up to 4 pounds. What you have to understand here, is that these swords are
NOT designed to be wielded in pairs. It's just not possible to run around in full heavy armor, swinging two claymores, and expecting not to collapse from the weight. Even forget the armor, and picture you're Rambo-esque in terms of strength, it's simply
not possible Claymores are always two-handed weapons, and require a very strong user to just wield the weapon properly, even with two hands. I'm making the assumption here that the Longswords included in Planeshift are both two-handed, and one-handed weapons. Even then, what you need to understand is that one-handed longswords are not designed to be used in pairs. Think about holding two very heavy, unwieldy PVC pipes, and then going and trying to take someone on with them, it's just not going to happen. One-handed longswords are designed to be used with a shield, and never as a paired weapon system. The only possible exception I can see to this is a really, and I mean
really buffed-up Ynwnn in very light armor walking out with two one-handed longswords, and perhaps lasting longer than a few seconds before a wiser fighter finishes him off. People, my main point is this: Claymores and Longswords should not be allowed to be equipped in two slots simultaneously. Feel free to run around like a headless Kikiri with your pair of broadswords, however difficult that would be, it's still very possible to do so, but doing the same with a pair of Claymores or Longswords just won't work.
---Daggers/Knives---Now comes the weapons I've got the most in-game experience with, and have done the most research on. I can't say that I've even gotten to mess around with a pair of daggers, per se, but I have done a bit with knives, though not the medieval type that would be in Planeshift. A large portion of this section will simply be re-stating what I've already covered in my earlier post, but if my goal is to create a comprehensive reference on the combat system's shortcomings, I've to to stick it in. Historically, medieval daggers aren't the kitchen-knife-esque type things commonly portrayed today. Medieval daggers ranged anywhere from a foot to nearly two full feet in length, meaning that these blades were hardly your average Swiss Army Knife. Fighters who had trained with daggers for any period of time learned that daggers were
not weapons like the axe or club, meant only for slashing and bashing the living snot out of your enemy. Daggers were meant as smaller, more precise blades that would be much easier to stab in and out at your opponent quickly, while giving the lightened weight that enabled fighters to dodge and parry strikes with greater speed. Dagger users would be especially good at stabbing their blades through the joints and cracks in plate armors. For a foot-and-a-half blade, going straight through a thick plate chestpiece just isn't possible, unless the wearer was completely incapacitated and lying prone on the ground. The torque and power needed to penentrate though thicker plate, or even half-plate, just would be impossible to achieve on a moving, upright opponent. Without stealing too much information from the Armor section, plate and half-plate armor is weakest at it's joints, where the plates either overlap, or are cut off. These are the areas that anyone, especially a dagger or knife-fighter, would be aware of, and would likely target the majority of their attacks. Currently, I'm unable to do any damage on a maxed HA user, even with maxed dagger skill. Again, this is the Dagger section, not the HA section, but the problem with daggers currently is highlighted in it's unfair struggle against Heavy Armor. Something needs to change here, daggers would be significantly less effective against HA than say, a mace, even I'm not delusional enough to pretend otherwise
But my point is this: Daggers need to be able to do damage against plate armor, for the sake of realism and a realistically balanced combat system.
Additionally, daggers are currently classified as slash-damage weapons. I don't need to expand on everything stated earlier, but as I've said, daggers are not designed for hacking against armor, they're designed as stabbing and piercing weapons, and should inflict pierce damage, rather than slash, or slash and pierce, as a sword would (and should).
---Ranged---Here comes the section that should be the easiest for me to explain, and the easiest for everyone to see, likely, many of you already have a complain regarding the ineffectiveness of Ranged. I can't honestly say that I've tested Ranged against a maxed HA user, but the imbalance with Ranged is focused on it's usage against NPC's. I've currently got a mid-50's skill in Ranged, and I'm already beginning to regret spending the tria and time on training it. Even at maxed Ranged, which I have tested with a player's help, damaging heavily armoured NPC's, such as Maulbies or Dlayos is impossible.
Zero damage is inflicted on these opponents, even after expending hundreds of arrows in bloody stance, regardless of hitting in the head, foot, torso, whatever. Take the Maulbernaut for example, what you've got is the biological equivalent of something like a carnivorous elephant with anger issues, only with a coat of fur instead of the thick skin. Firing iron-tipped arrows from a master archer with considerable strength, he's aiming for the head, neck, or upper torso, and you better believe that those arrows are gonna do some serious damage, especially if you're hitting the head or neck. Right now, at nearly 60 in ranged, with a full q bow and in bloody, I can't inflict any damage on weaker NPC's like a tefu, trepor, or the like. Out of all the weapons and damages I'll talk about, I know this would be the easiest fix. This issue is also intertwined with the current grossly over-powered NPC issue, but that's another rant for another day, I've only got so much space. Either way, my main point for this section: Ranged should have greater effect on NPC's, period.
2. Armors
---Light Armor---I’ve only got the space to discuss two armor types, so I figured I’d go for the two that are the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of imbalance: Light and Heavy.
The most important thing in regards to leather armor was the movement and flexibility that it provided, which gave a huge advantage in terms of weight and agility over other armors. Small blade users weren’t the only users of LA, either, it was not unusual for a swordsman to be wearing a set of well-kept leather armor, if engaging in a smaller-scale conflict or a skirmish. Leather armor simply was lighter, more flexible, and allowed the wearer to be much quicker and more agile than a wearer of any other armor type, period. Leather armor could be travelled in, whereas plate or heavy sets of mail could not be worn when running really any distance. LA was designed for speed, and due to it’s weight and thickness, it would not have the same ability to stop a sword or blade that mail or plate would. The LA user’s best defense against a swinging blade was to either block it with their own blade, or to use thick forearm bracers to deflect the blade off at an angle. LA might be able to take the edge off of a moderately powerful sword strike, but a powerful axe blow would leave the user with no option but to parry with their own blade, or dodge the incoming blow.
Currently, LA has realistic defensive qualities in terms of slash and pierce defensive values, but aside from the look (
) there’s no advantage to wearing it other than RP purposes. A very simple solution to this would be to have other armor types subtract from a wearer’s STR, and heavily from their END and AGI, whereas LA kept the stats either at, or very close, to the current levels. This, in addition to even training levels which is discussed later, would provide a suitable recompense for users wearing different armor types, and also serve well in terms of creating a realistic combat system.
My main point of this section: There needs to be a fair consequence for users wearing different types of armor, for sake of balance and realism.
---Heavy Armor---Following alone with my proposed solution for the stat reduction for different armor types, Heavy Armor would be the greatest draw on the STR, AGI, and END for a wearer. Let’s remember that knights wearing plate armor needed ladders, stairs, or even small winch systems just to be able to mount their horses for battle. All that, and they still needed the assistance of a squire to mount up, and even just to put the armor itself on. The main point in this: Heavy Armor was just that
Heavy Armor. Heavy armor was a series of heavy metal plates layered over each other to form a very effective defense against slashing weapons. Frequently, plate would be worn over a shirt of plate mail, giving a second layer of protection against slashing damage of swords and sabres. Aside from the massive weight of the plate, and greatly incumbered motion, a massive weakness of plate was the joints, or places where plate would be thinned or left out in order to allow the wearer some degree of motion. These joints provided the least protection, and as such, were the targets of most fighters’ attacks.
However, HA also is greatly overestimated in it’s defensive stats, because it ignores the fact of these weaknesses. While the slash, blunt and pierce values are more or less, correct, they ignore specialized weapons like daggers and ranged, which would be much more effective at finding the joints and seams in the plate. Because daggers are still counted as a slash weapon, they’re completely useless against HA in the current system. To give a practical example, I tested a group of attacks with a 300q dagger pair at maxed skill against full q50 Heavy Armor, also on a maxed user. With the heavy-armor user in Normal stance, and I in bloody, I was able to inflict an astounding
.09 damage on someone's
foot. However, against a user of around 50 skill in Heavy Armor, I'm able to inflict moderate, yet still unfairly low, damages.
My question is this:
What is changing as the user ranks up in Heavy Armor? If I'm able to damage the user at a lower skill level, that shows that the daggers are penetrating the plate at it's joints where Caraick would be attacking, and I'm able to do damage to the wearer. However, against a maxed user, that utterly vanishes, and he/she/kran is totally invincible to my daggers. People:
The plate itselfis not changing, if I'm able to do damage on the armor once, I can do it again even if the user is more skilled The user's skill is the only variable that is changing, the plate itself is not changing, meaning that if I'm able to do damage on the plate at a lower skill, nothing should change at a higher skill, except more blocks and dodge, and perhaps less overall damage, but not
NO damage at all! That's just plain silly, we know better than that.
That’s my main point of this section: Heavy Armor is unfair in it’s resistance, especially to specialized weapons like daggers and bows, and needs to have a fair penalty for wearing and fighting in it. (Stat. reduction)
3. Weapon Training
---Maximum Levels---Currently, there is a bugtracker post with regards to imbalance in maximum trainable levels, and I also known that the subject was touched upon at the recent Dev. Meeting with the players, but again, this is a comprehensive post, and it needs to be included. If you’re confused as to what I mean by Max. Levels, I’m referring to the maximum level that a weapon, armor, or magic way can be trained to. i.e., swords train to 100, LA to 60, CW to 150, etc. Compounded with the imbalance that I’ve talked about with various weapons and damage types, the fact that axes can train to 150, and swords only to 100 gives axes an unrealistic, OOC mechanic advantage over any weapon type that trains to 100. Swords at 100 is not treated as a “maximum” weapon rank, it’s treated as 100 in that weapon skill. This means that 100 in axes would be equivalent to max swords in terms of stat levels, even though axes max out at 150. That gives master axe users a full 50 levels of damage greater than a sword or dagger user who’s maxed in their weapon skill.
The same is true for armors, and because the new system has granted different armor types greater resistances against certain damage types, the maximum training levels throws the scale even more off balance. The fact that LA cannot train to 100 completely cripples any LA user, and gives a HA user again, a completely OOC-mechanic advantage of being able to train his or her skill many levels higher than a MA or LA user. Again, this completely tips the scale in the combat system, and
needs to be fixed if there is to be balance.This same issue is also applied to the issues in the magic system, but again, that’s another rant for another time, I just don’t have the space
My main point here: All weapons and armors need to train to an equal level.
---Basic Weapon Training---Warning: New Idea Alert!
This is the last section of my post, and I know that while the rest of my points may have already been slightly known, I don’t think there’s been any major discussion about simple weapon training. The way the system works currently, an NPC trainer allows you to train to the next level by acquiring practice points by getting hits with the weapon, armor, or magic. However, I think that if someone was training say axes, by continuing to use the axes, he/she/kra would become more skilled with the weapon, just by using it on their own, without a trainer, per se. However, the guidance of a specific trainer for that skill would allow the person to train much faster, as they’re receiving much more direct instruction.
My solution to this is a new Weapon training system, one that combines the current one, and the concept explained above. A player could train weapons as they do normally, and would have a set amount of practice points that they would need to acquire after buying the skill level training from the NPC trainer. However, after capping out on their practice points for a weapon, and a player reaches the next weapon level, he/she/kra should be allowed to continue gaining “learning points” with the skill. Learning points would be a similar system to the practice points we have already, by getting hits with a certain armor or weapon, the player would also receive “learning points” Learning points would be represented by a third bar on the stats and skills window, and naturally, would fill up much more slowly in comparison to practice points.
The point of this system would be to allow players to continue advancing in a weapon skill without the need to see a NPC trainer. This would be especially useful at the higher levels, where players use their weapons for hunting and sparring, not necessarily grinding to make the stats higher. Because it is reasonable to assume that someone learns a skill by using it, the person would continue to develop in their skill simply by utilizing the skill or armor stat. This concept could be applied over the whole spectrum of PS skills and jobs, from magic to metallurgy. That’s my main point here, I’m not bashing the current system, I think it’s pretty okay the way it is, I’m just suggesting a way to make it even more realistic, which is the goal after all, right?
Conclusion
My goal in all this is not to give the Devs grief, it’s not to be a complainer, either. I’m trying to give a comprehensive list of what I feel is wrong with the combat system currently, and where I can, propose ways to fix it, or make it more realistic. Like I said before, I’ve got some practical knowledge in a few of the weapons areas, and I’ve tried to present the information as best that I’ve experienced it and researched it.
I hope that this can help with bringing this game along to it’s final product, and I welcome any comments, criticisms, or feedback.
Thanks,
CD
EDIT: The system has been changed, all stats/magic/skills now train to equivalent levels!
