Knives and Daggers

[Hipie_Froboz]

The weapon system really needs a fix. After reading this, I think training my new char with daggers would be stupid. I also agree that HA should have a penalty for wearing, and also maybe a amount of time needed to put it on or take it off

[verden]

HA should be open for piercing damage, such as from a dagger.

[Caraick]

HA should be open for piercing damage, such as from a dagger.

 

There ya go     but in the current system, K/D are still slash weapons only...   

[Everybody]

HA should be open for piercing damage, such as from a dagger.

That could work, but to make it more realistic, the damage needs to be all or nothing. The attacker either slips in the cracks, or deflects off harmlessly. If the attack gets through, it should be as if the heavy armor wasn't there. If it doesn't get through, then it should be like there was no attack. Contrast this to blunt weapon damage, where even if the attack doesn't really pass the armor, it still does partial damage. Accuracy should be everything for a piercing attack. Strength should be the biggest factor in a blunt attack. Slashing weapons should be a hybrid of both.

[verden]

the damage needs to be all or nothing. The attacker either slips in the cracks, or deflects off harmlessly.

Yes, exactly.

[Caraick]

*Shameless resurrection of topic*


I'm looking forward to seeing how the GSoC developers' work influences the effect of daggers and knives, with new combat cases and such.  Seeing how the new maximum levels, while helping some,  have not been sufficient alone to make daggers a viable weapon against any armor aside plate, regardless of skill level in the weapon.

[Gillis Norone]

I fully support all of the problems mentioned above.

What I'd really like to see are different kind of daggers. There are so many different kind of swords that are different in the damage they do. With the daggers you don't have any choice at all.

I never tried to use knives, as they're even worse than daggers.

[Bonifarzia]

*Shameless resurrection of topic*

I think that's justified here and now.
Especially with respect to this:

Special Effects
   

• the idea here is to make some attacks have less power but have a chance at a special effect that will affect the outcome of a battle
• ...
• ignore a percentage of armor 

I think above is the most important point for daggers.
Considering that dual wielding may and will be implemented in some way,
I would guess that a light weapon class will certainly benefit from this as well.

[Caraick]

I think that's justified here and now.
Especially with respect to this:

Special Effects
   

• the idea here is to make some attacks have less power but have a chance at a special effect that will affect the outcome of a battle
• ...
• ignore a percentage of armor 

I think above is the most important point for daggers.
Considering that dual wielding may and will be implemented in some way,
I would guess that a light weapon class will certainly benefit from this as well.

If I read through the combat enhancement goals correctly, I'm hoping that light weapons, in particularly knives, or daggers, are given a chance for critical damage, or other similar weapon classes, like Ranged, or perhaps hammers.  Either way, I'm really excited to seeing how the enhancement is going to affect the damages of K/D. 



With regards to what Gillis said: You're absolutely correct.  The only practical use currently for knives is as a shiny, sharp paperweight.  They've got the exact same delay as daggers, with no benefits besides a much lower slash ratio But, I'm trusting that this problem will be fixed sometime in the future, as recently, we continue to see new types of swords, axes, maces, and bows with slash and delay that are affected by their names and buff.  Seeing as how every single other class has got varied slash and damage ratio, I'm hoping that dagger and knives will altered sometime soon™.  [/list]

[Bonifarzia]

... recently, we continue to see new types of swords, axes, maces, and bows with slash and delay that are affected by their names and buff.  Seeing as how every single other class has got varied slash and damage ratio, I'm hoping that dagger and knives will altered sometime soon™.  [/list]

My feeling is that even with the current combat system, there are other relevant weapon stats than slash(/blunt) and delay values, even though those are all we players can actually see. Chances to block or avoid getting blocked are certainly very important, and ranges should be an essential weapon property.
Now I wonder if the hard limit of delay 1.5 is still needed, because it leaves less space for those knives and daggers to have their stats improved by "loot" modifiers. Anyways, with the "combat enhancements", such effects might get much less important.

[Perlam]

the problem of the damage daggers does is not due to the damage it does itself, but to the fact that HA is unbalanced....

The armor system needs rebalancing, all weapons work like they should work

[Aensor]

When working on rebalancing armors just changing some values wont solve the underlying problems though. It could serve as a quick dirty fix for better gameplay experience but there should be a bigger redesign in the future such as eg. +Dodge for LA or reduced Attackspeed for HA etc..

[Mekora]

Yeah... I'm going to have to agree with Perlam on this one. Maybe Daggers are under-powered, but right now HA is a bigger problem.

[Caraick]

My feeling is that even with the current combat system, there are other relevant weapon stats than slash(/blunt) and delay values, even though those are all we players can actually see. Chances to block or avoid getting blocked are certainly very important, and ranges should be an essential weapon property.
Now I wonder if the hard limit of delay 1.5 is still needed, because it leaves less space for those knives and daggers to have their stats improved by "loot" modifiers. Anyways, with the "combat enhancements", such effects might get much less important.

I think I can agree with you there, and again agree on the point that with the new "enhancements", such effects might be made less relevant.

 

the problem of the damage daggers does is not due to the damage it does itself, but to the fact that HA is unbalanced....

The armor system needs rebalancing, all weapons work like they should work

Here, I think I can agree with you half-way, Perlam and Mekora, you're absolutely right that currently HA is strongly overbalanced. If you're not wearing HA, you're in trouble if you're fighting someone who is.   However, there's a couple changes that I'd still like to see to the K/D weapon class, and also a few others. Most notably, I'd like to see daggers changed to a pierce damage, and have the pierce value be substantially higher than 1.5.  The settings team did a nice job with setting resistances of various armors to different types of damages, and I think that if the pierce resistance value on HA could be set slightly lower, which would allow for weapons like daggers and ranged to have a greater, more realistic effect.  Though again, I'd like to re-iterate where I agree strongly with Bonifarzia here: I'm really looking forward to the combat enhancements, and their effect on light weapons classes.

When working on rebalancing armors just changing some values wont solve the underlying problems though. It could serve as a quick dirty fix for better gameplay experience but there should be a bigger redesign in the future such as eg. +Dodge for LA or reduced Attackspeed for HA etc..

I think either of those are fine ideas to help balance light weapons and armor, I've suggested something similar in my post on the combat system, somewhere around here   Perhaps something akin to this will pop up when we see the combat enhancements.  However, I agree with you 100%, I'd love to see some detrimental effects to wearing HA, and perhaps some small perks of wearing LA: Quicker movements, easier dodging, etc.