can't believe how hard you made this game for new players

[Korumak]

Couldn't you have given your son stuff to hold for your alt from your main? I suppose that would have been too OOC and pragmatic but then again did you really think of an IC reason for that particular Enki to help that dwarf or did you do it just for the OOC ( and perfectly justifiable ) reason he was your son?

He was running a dwarf and has his heart set on a battle axe, I didnt have one none of my alts did.  Secound of all I'm part of a guild that helps thoes new to the city, so thats the IC reason for my character to help the dwarf, and there is also the OOC reason as well

If you go through the tutorial and trash the character out of hand you are wasting resources. Perhaps it should be that any new character on an empty account ought to be sent to the tutorial instead of just the first character of a new account. Then again, unless it has changed, which it might have, if you create a new character before the first one gets out of the tutorial it too will be started in the tutorial. This way with a new account you can get 4 characters to go through the tutorial.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Nope the secound point your correct with "One tutorial, till completed" and any new till you complete there in is granted the tutorial until one character completes the tutorial.  The point being, a new user tends to finish the tutorial to see the game.  He doesn't think. "O maybe none of my other characters will get a tutorial if i don't finish it. and thinks a head to get extra characters lost in the tutorial"  They play the tutorial to see how the game works, get a feel for it, then enter the social part, and test it out in game.  Its usually after an hour or so the sit back and decide on a few things to get serious with a game.
Every RPG computer game I played before PS was either Every new character went through the tutorial or got the option of skiping it.  Or skip it and get the end result resourses.  Not a 'you where robbed before entering the city no tria for you'

As far as Valentineaaron:
As far as the rats go... yeah quite a bit better since the adjustments.  I'm speaking of one seeing it through a Raw new player's eyes, and a relitivly new players eyes. I am only pointing out the Stand alone VS Forced RP argument.  I think it should work both ways.  If someone didnt want to have to ask certian questions the game needs to be able to accomidate it through either NPC interaction etc.  not Rely on other players to provide all that information.
I literaly sat down with him at his computer, made all the adjustment so that he saw all the chat rooms,  he had his heart set on a dwarf with a battle axe and his first question was "Were do I buy one" well in character it was "Where is the weapons store" which of course promted the 'trip to Ojadveda' to get him his battle axe.  At no time was there an NPC to give him the information, to explain guilds, to explain gossip, to explain... you see the point, it required intereaction, meaning PS fals short on the "Being able to stand alone" so players who are used to getting that information from NPC's get completely lost, let alone joining a new type of enviroment, where everyone isnt hostile in OOC settins.

Planeshift is complex, its not as simple as most games... heck I'm still learning a tone of 'basic stuff' and i been doing this for three weeks?  I got time, most new users dont have the time/patience, so hence the "So hard for new players" not everyone has the time and effort to try and peice meal how everything works from other players, scattered forum posts, guides that quickly get outdated, and remembering it between gaming sessions, when things even on that level change a lot.

See my point.

[novacadian]

See my point.

Yes, very well explained. The idea about allowing the option to enter the tutorial with alternate characters is a great one. Heck, why not just offer a third option of Just give me the tutorial kit. 

- Nova

[valentineaaron]

Ah Korumak you make a good point about starting the game.  Friends in my guild have seen that issue as well.  It is very hard to start out the game and no what you are doing.  I talked with someone in game about setting up a booth where new players start (like the explorers booth there) but one that is more like an information booth or tour guild kind of thing.  it would give out valuable information that a new player will need (including of course OOC things that can be put in paranthesis so it's understood they are OOC)

[Korumak]

I can see how that might be helpful to some of them... we are kind of stuck with a lot of catch 22
Writing a manual is nearly impossible as by the time its done, things have changed rendering the manual, almost obsolete.  It takes for a Tehcnical manual, for say, In my own experience my "D-Star" manual, takes a 4-5 hour conversation with a person to about 100 pages.  Took me over 2 months to complete, revise, spell check, graphics, flow testing, first readers, repeat.  Something as complex as plane shift, I'm guessing with access to all of the "Secret" data, I'm guessing 3-4 months, before the first vision of it would hit the web, already since I been here, they have added music, and magic resistance.
Would I love to have an accurate manual of all of the game commands, all of the procedures on how to do this and do that, and all of the gaming controls, or how difficult which monster was to kill, so i could gage my progress that way? Oh heck yeah.  I'd even print it out and put it in a three ring binder every new version and it would probably be thumbed silly by the time the new version came out.
But thats just me, I'm the techno geek, give me data, procedures specifications, and turn me loose.

The problem you run into with a "Booth" is one keeping all that info current takes almost a small army.  Look at the responses for the games official wiki.  Let alone why stop to read a bunch of books when people around you are throwing spells, wandering around and having conversations.  But it does give me an idea.  What about a main tunnel.  It would have to be up to the DEV when they redo Hydlaa's map again.  Guilds could set up booths (those with guild houses) along either side of it for people new to the game that are interested in, the In game and out of game information about the different guilds.  It could be literally be a tunnel from the higher levels.  Drop an NPC there to be the newbie helper to point out once again basics, website, forums, wiki and the guilds.

That way with the booths, guilds can leave say an guild email address to handle people OOC who are interested in setting up an in game meeting with a character to work it out. For one it would give us guild folks access to an email address we can send basic 'set up you chat to this' 'right click the white diamond to show the guild icons' etc those kind of directions, and thus for guild newsletters what ever that particular guild needed/wanted.  And secondly Give IC information about the guild and OOC information, thus Evil characters can go to Evil guilds etc.  It also might help smaller guilds who are looking for new members too.

[valentineaaron]

You are talking about specifics to a minute detail though.  When you first start a game you aren't really interested in every little part of the game mechanics and every piece of data about what goes on in the game.  It could just be the most common asked questions new players have to help them along. 

[Korumak]

Thats the thing about a manual.... you can dig into it as much as you want.

In the ham radio field, some "Hams" like to judge a radio about how much they can work out by not picking up the manual and just play with it.  Planeshift cant really be played like that, well yet.  Then it boils down to a "Guessing game." In theory a tutorial is only supposed to teach / show the minim to get one started.  There still working on that point.

At this point in time there shoving the "Missing holes" of information on to us the player with an "Excuse" of 'Ask another player' in a forced RP concept.  Or "Go check the forums".  I've personaly bumped into quite a few players that don't want to use the forums, or the wiki and not join a guild.  I met someone just a few days ago, been playing PS for a month, and had no clue there was even a buddy list, or a quick spell bar.  Let alone how to bring it up.  Asking a tutorial to do all that... well a bit much.

I'm hoping for the next version they will disable "Basic Chat" and selct the others and show the full menu, as well as add a "Show quick spell bar button to it" this should save a lot of "Basic questions, basic set up stuff" that it looks like you where asking for.

[valentineaaron]

I do agree with you that the unwillingness to just give out certain info is rather annoying.  I'm still learning some things about the game because they just don't want to give it out, such as the equations used for combat and crafting.  It's kind of silly to keep that info secret (not like we shouldn't be aware as players what we need to do to be succesful or not)

[thalaric]

The worst part is people already know. Either from observation or because they were told by someone who has access. Either way, those who know have a substantial advantage over the rest of us (until it's spilled on the net).

[BoevenF]

Apart for the actual difficulty of maintaining a game manual with such structural evolution, I believe the whole point is forcing the interaction between players. Even in guilds some questions are... role-played, I think. That's the beauty of this game. If there are not enough players willing to share their spare time to help, well, that's a problem.

[valentineaaron]

I don't have issue with having to learn things that are IC info.  That makes sense.  But it makes no sense to keep ooc info so difficult to get.  Even if you have to change it often just a basic bit of info would be so helpful.  For example some info on game mechanics.  How combat works and the way the system calculates chance of hitting and damage done.  The defensive stats and why they matter.  I have played this game for over six months now and just recently learned about what the damage modifiers really do in the game such as slashing, same for the armor ratings.  And let's not mention the importance of quality to defense and damage.  It's all well and good to have that info available for programmers who can understand it but they should also simplify it for the rest of us who aren't that well versed with computers.