Author Topic: First week in Yliakum  (Read 3813 times)

Denes

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First week in Yliakum
« on: November 10, 2012, 02:05:02 am »
Purpose
   As a newcomer, I’d like to share some of the insights I gathered during my first week as a citizen of Yliakum, in the hope that some of them come as a fresh, pure perspective might be valuable to the community.
Background
   Back in the Nineteen Nineties I used to play “Miracle Adeptia Guns Urrus Sorrate” (a role-playing game much like AD&D) as a kid. Around 2005 I played on a Lineage C2 private server for somewhat less than a year. So I’m no expert but I have some idea about MMORPGs and I have an idea what 2d6 is, unlike young people with alike intrests.
My plan
   After 15 minutes of reading the official website, I decided to give PS a go to relive the fun of RP-ing. My plan was to come out with a plain old simple grunt and advance him towards being some sort of knight, an engineer or an architect. Krans fit the bill perfectly. My choice was supported by the fact, that it is usually easy to RP a character like that and on the combat field every party needs someone to take the hits.
Start off
   Installing the Windows client was pretty straightforward although my VGA driver needed an update. Later on my client randomly exited quite frequently which finally became a permanent error as I strolled to into the Arena. (wasn’t sound related as I turned that off) I overcame by using the x86 binaries instead of the 64bit ones. (I didn’t file a bug report since I didn’t know where to find the relevant logs to attach or there is a “/debug=verbose” or similar argument to the binary)
   Character generation was intuitive enough. I paved my way by choosing both parent as architects (This one seemed odd for asexual reproduction, but there might be details in setting I don’t know. Anyway I treated them as one.) to give the prodigal son some family inheritance to live up to. The training ground was very helpful and brief. I’d expect it to expand with the latest implementations, but either way it is fine.
   My first thing was to get my char a proper gear. The second was to look for something to do relying on the “A letter from a friend”. This on, the possibilities rose exponentially. At first I ran into some technical difficulties and the unability to find the NPC in the Arena. Secondly on my 2nd quest I’ve been instructed to fetch lamp fuel from Ojaveda. As I had the in-game map, I knew where to leave the city. I spent 2 hours getting there . I didn’t know that monsters won’t attack until provoked and the sign posts were not definitive in some cases. So I did some turn-backs, but I was on the right track all along. I’m happy to have found the maps on planeshift.net after a while, but till than I spent hours searching for one in-game. (I don’t know whose responsibility it is since players may say, that it is not their job to maintain the signposts or the integrity of the world ie players have to find their way under the given circumstances, while devs could argue that players have everything to help each other out: by drawing maps or escorting newbies and so on. Now I think it is basically my fault for not asking either side for help.)
2nd step
   After familiarizing myself with the game itself, I took time to revise and do further readings about the PlaneShift universe. That basically meant the official website, wiki and the most recent portion of the forum. Since I started everywhere with reading the rules, I ended up felling that I ended up in some sort of virtual dictatorship. Don’t get me wrong… I like rules. They prevent chaos from happening. But having myself reminded to them at all corners is somewhat disturbing. (I wonder… How do they know, that my intentions are to create a bot to rule their most beloved world and troll their forums? ) Anyhow wiki is a bit outdated and that makes me proud to be a participant in an ever-changing alpha testing.
Quests
   Hot topic and opinions greatly differ. Since the ~4th day in game I feel like my char was an errand boy with a rodent exterminator’s skillset. Quests usually involve travelling over great distances. I understand that there is no prospect for teleports. I also understand that having players prove their determination is crucial for their progression. But… Having players run hours for quests can be temporary at best. I gave the problem some though and didn’t come up with any perfect solutions, although I believe, that we player-testers are responsible.  Here is one mentioned from previous forum posts: Let’s have a simple game in game. Possibilities are infinite, but for example playing for education points could involve beating an NPC in a board game of choice (minding the 1n-nn target age of course) like chess. In Lineage this was implemented to fishing. It relied on reflexes and I hated it so much, that I cheated with using a bot. On the other hand I remember when my father had his first mobile (M-bat). It had a game called something like Bot wars. I spent hours of programming virtual robots with a (as far as I can remember) ReallyRISC instruction set like: turn->direction; move (forward); sensor->if enemy is in front of me do this else jump that; go to xy instruction; shoot (front); on a max 16 instructions (4bit) and a 2d board with 3 bots. (It also had a random element, but I think you get the point already) It would be a win-win to utilize the players to generate the AI or the MOBs (I know it is a long shot) like this. For example in PS I could imagine my char as an engineer who designs the logic of automatic harvesters with rock evasion and rodent extermination. The concerns of the artist community should be addressed in the same manner (I guess). You might think that logic like the previous is far from the world of PlaneShift. I did so too, until I encountered a quest of deciphering a text. Not knowing what the quest reward was I decided to utilize my OOC self and applied letter frequency probability. I regret this decision, because my char: Denes would not have had any way of knowing that at all and the reward item was a musical instrument of some kind. Before that I had another quest requiring me to answer a question. I kept giving my (entirely wrong) answer to the NPC and he kept saying that he doesn’t understand what my char has been talking about. I almost filed a complaint, before I realized my mistake. Still I believe the response could have been more elaborate.
I’m still clinging on the win-win idea. Since engineering relies on mathematics, I could imagine a quest to gather statistics for the dev crew. Say for example I could count the PCs leaving from Hydlaa to the Ojaveda Road from 7pm to 8pm GMT+1 for starters. I could upload the data to some sort of spreadsheet for further analysis. (Even if it’s no help at all I’d rather be doing that, than running back and forth all the time)
NPCs being able to move maybe more realistic, but further the tortures one has to endure to get by.
Furthermore I couldn’t find the way to tell if an NPC is giving a quest for a certain faction. That is annoying and unintentionally against my RP wills.
NPCs in general talk understandably and always have interesting background stories to tell. I had a minor glitch leaving an NPC before it could finish the story, but /help got me out of the trouble. Some quests seem to be outdated but I’m ever proud. (Getting broadsword crafted right after finding a pair of bracelets for the guards doesn’t seem fair and how am I supposed to produce carrot juice?)
Economy
As a pure warrior/barbarian I found my char lacking of money despite all the rat intestines he got. And this is all I’m saying about combat, because I know that it is far from being the first priority in game. I’ve been advised never-ever to sell glyphs by an experienced player. I took the advice, but now I know I was wrong. I know if I was a magician I’d be very-very thankful for being able to buy spells from merchants. So the smaller the community is, the more we have to give each other. Back to money problems: no kidding I needed a side-job. I can only guess but if it is intentional than it is genius. I have had to come up with a side-kick and involve Denes in RP even more. I chose mining as the basis for a lot of items to support my progression in training. Usually there is a seller’s market if I’m lucky to have the right characters online. Mining is sometimes referred to as a … Let me quote a response I got in reply to an auction message: “i offer a bag of boredom for the highest bidder”. That comment maybe true in some context, but I prefer to think of mining as a sacrifice on the altar of self-progression and common good. Another player told me, that there were better things to do on PS than mining wishing me all the best. Despite the previous there is a bigger problem than not recognizing the importance of gathering basic materials. So far I could only hear my own voice’s echo in the auction channel. There are two options I can think of: The freshly started cars are all expert RP-ers (and/or chars of players already involved with PS) and hang out by the tavern to make friends, or there aren’t any and I’m the only freshman here. /who usually describes a number of online players between 30-40. That is all kinds of “Less than expected” if I take the GMs, the experienced players, the distance of places and the variety of skills in account. Don’t get me wrong. I’m happy for all the possibilities, but it leaves me with no real chance to meet a master of a certain profession I might need. Bottom line: We need more players. (Am I bold or what to target the top of the food chain as a newborn?) As for the how, I can’t be of any real help, but I hope that some of the readers of this post can do more. Maybe a “wholesale” type of warehouse could hold the key to a workaround. Imagine a warehouse where you can place bids or offer items for sale in a permanent manner. You’d leave the money required to buy or the items you wish to sell, and on the next occasion you could check if you were successful in buying/selling. My personal target would be to feed crafters with minerals till they make mediocre to superior items publicly available / buyable.
Players
I’m happy to have learnt, that all players and GMs are very kind and helpful. This could be derived from the fact that PS is a magnet for such (I’m proud again), or maybe they realize: the more – the better (for now). I can’t think of any bad experiences (you know my IC name so I could expect consequences), but if I really-really had to say something than it would be the clear distinction of RP-ing and lvl-ing. Those aspects should be mixable (I too am tackling the idea…).
There also could be a coaching system to help the newcomers settling in and keeping the elderly busy. Whilst this previous might be a good idea I don’t see how it could be implemented.
Final words
So! Excuse my journal like post, but I needed to speak my mind. I can take all the constructive criticism. If there is any idea worth something we should elaborate and file a thread in the wish list.
If you think I’m a n00bAss and should leave to whineland back where I came from, please do tell and elaborate so I can learn from it.
Denes

PS:
Weather you think I’m a waist of space or a valuable contributor please remember:
I only wrote this to help.
I found all the topics satisfying which I didn’t cover. (Especially the Death Realm is perfect for its purpose)
I only wrote this because I care.

Illysia

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Re: First week in Yliakum
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2012, 03:09:17 am »
You seem sincere so there is no problem with trying to help by pointing out things. In fact, you are right about Kran parents. However, some things are just things that are hard to get around in Planeshift and bugs that stop you from playing the game is one of those things. I'm glad you have yours resolved now. Right now I am locked out of the game and there doesn't seem to be much I can do to get around it.

However, in this game, you do have to rely heavily on other players but with such a small base it is very difficult. Yes the game needs more players but that is a very hard thing to actually accomplish. I would suggest that you make certain divisions between your RP and your OOC support of your RP. It is nice to be able to actually provide goods to other players, but if you can't find buyers, just RP without the items and don't waste too much time trying to mine to have something to sell. Try waiting until some character actually asks you for a mineral before you try to mine. Or try to come up with unique goods that don't require you to grind to get them. One of my characters sells her own potions and goods but only some of them are things she can craft, the rest are just RPed.

Also, maps are available at the library but I'm pretty sure the easiest way when starting out is to follow the roads when possible. I personally have not seen any maps in game that will tell you specifically how to navigate from Hydlaa to Ojaveda. However, one option is for players to make their own landmarks. I did it in the city of Amdeneir by using books as makeshift signposts and it helped me to navigate the city much easier.

Oh and everybody feels like an errand boy at some point. They way I dealt with it was to do only a few quests at a time and to not do any that sent me any farther than Ojaveda. Then I would work on the quests that had steps in the city I was currently in and I'd put off the other steps until I happened to be in the right area to do those steps. I stopped going too far out of my way for an individual quest.

I don't know what to say about bots, but, in a way, I don't think it would work since planeshift attracts just enough trolls to where that could be quite problematic. It's more of a "history of the game" issue than a "does the idea work well?" issue.

Overall, I think everyone just finds their way in planeshift so some people will spend all their time RPing, some never leave their crafting stations, some RP and grind, and many other variations. You'll just need to find other players that play Planeshift in a way that you would like to play it as well. I would gladly help but as I said, I can't get in game right now so sorry. :(


Also, it is hard to play a character as sticking only to one path. Most warriors craft, most crafters learn combat. It's just one of the things that is being worked on. I would just say find a craft to do OOCly so that you can make money and then RP the warrior part when you can. RP in Planeshift can be very independent from the mechanics but that can be a good thing at times.


Roled

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Re: First week in Yliakum
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2012, 08:54:59 am »
Hey Denes- thanks for this thoughtful feedback.  I can't speak to the tech stuff, but I am glad at least that some of our olbie and midbie rpers were able to spend some time IC and ooc with you- I would never have made it past a month without that kind of help. It's a good reminder, especially with our low numbers ig...
Looking forward to meeting you ig!

There's an upcoming Book and Arts Faire (see events on the PS Forums for GMT times) on Nov 17th which I hope will be fun and enable your kran to meet some others you can rp with and who can help you develop.  Since architecture isn't a trainable skill, you'll have to rp it and that could be fun- Roled and Lattia could use a house, and the Knowledge Seekers of the Ojaveda Campus of the University of ylikum will need someone to do renovation of our new Guild House sometime soon...  ::|

See you ig and welcome. Again, thanks for your thoughtful insights!
Roled Rolak
Professor of Magicks
Knowledge Seekers :whistling:
"RR is a PieSexual" ~ Monala

LigH

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Re: First week in Yliakum
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2012, 11:10:39 am »
Also, maps are available at the library but I'm pretty sure the easiest way when starting out is to follow the roads when possible.

Well, even though they are not available 24/7, but the Explorers "took the job" as guides for the Octarchal Society for Progress, you will find their tent to the right of Harnquist's forge, next to the billboard. And even if they are not there, you may find other people giving you a guided tour. Certainly a very important experience!

In general ... roleplaying is the point of the game. You may level skills, you may solve quests, you may learn crafting — but you really should develop your character, especially regarding its personality. You are an actor on a virtual stage, playing your role using your character; so first, find a role for your character to play.

The game has been in development for a decade and will be in development for many more years. And that does not only mean the presence of maps, that also means the implementation of different kinds of game mechanics. You may use what is already implemented. You may pretend what is beyond your current degrees of freedom. You may help getting more details implemented.

Get used to the game and to the community. With a bunch of good will and patience, you may enjoy being here. After a month or two, you may see the first week in a different angle.

But your report is certainly useful and very appreciated. As much as we are already are used to the status quo, some of us may have lost the sense for your point of view already.

Gag Harmond
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The Royal House of Purrty

Rigwyn

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Re: First week in Yliakum
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2012, 08:48:14 pm »
Hey Denes,

You make some valid points, however the game is not perfect and is still evolving. There are some disconnects between the game and role play that I don't think will be resolved in the near future. That's just my personal opinion based on my experience with the game.

I've found that the most enjoyable role plays, for me at least, were the ones that focused mostly on character to character interaction. While its good practice to do only what your character would do regarding quests, development, and so on, there will be major snags along the way if you take that route too seriously. Personally, I would focus on just obtaining whatever items and resources you need for your character by whatever means, then just role play from there. While its not ideal for one who wishes to play strictly, it is more efficient.

Regarding money and the gathering of items, you can always barter for the things you need with those who are playing. This eliminates the money problems from the game and can serve as a means for casual role play and the establishment of your character with the community.  For example, when I played as Rigwyn, I sometimes gave new players goods like weapons and money in exchange for spying, dirty deeds, and some other subtle tasks. It gave me an idea of their character's alignment, their ability to role play, and also introduced them to fellow players - helping them to become established. This is something that established players should do IMHO.

I see that you've ramped up rather quickly in 4 days or so. Kudos to you for that.

Whisper Bless,
Rigwyn



Denes

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Re: First week in Yliakum
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2012, 04:26:10 pm »

Thank you all for the warm welcoming. I’m going to address the topics what we’ve been talking about, but first I’ll give you some insights about my intentions regarding my main and only: Denes. (I should have had my IC and Forum name separated. I should have thought that through, but at first I haven’t been planning on posting serious stuff... My real name is Rezső btw and Dénes Csolt well could have been a medieval Hungarian name. Dénes is a still existing first name while the family name (genus Csolt (Solt in Latin)) is not used any more as far as I know. Anyhow you can refer to me as Denes. I will do the same) This I may not do under normal circumstances. I normally would let it play out in the game, but here it is for the sake of better understanding:
I intentionally chose a strange name, so others would know that ICly I’m from a remote corner and OOCly I’m a newbie. In the transition from newb to midb I ideologized a full grinding-ramping (quests, lvling, mining and lots of them) start phase to gain items, stats and skills thus a little notability. With time and effort giving more and more space for more intellectual and social activities. Translating this to IC it is the development from a caveman (simpleton in a social sense: suspicious to strangers and baths in the fountain) to a respected open minded citizen (whether it manifests as an noted in architecture or recognized as a pair of sharp and steady blades to rely on) I’m on the first steps so Roled you probably wouldn’t want to meet Denes just yet, unless of course you are recruiting apprentice brickies or want to show off with your rat eye collection.
Getting back to my main point here: As I believe it is our responsibility to define a part of the work the dev team does, it is in our best interest to support them with ideas. I want us to share our premature ideas (I’ll take the newb side if no one else does however I’m greatly biased by my choice of character). We may think of it as a preprocessing before it gets in the ticketing system (aka: wish list) as I strongly believe that PS is much more than RP (in AD&D sense) and imagination.
Bout client problems Illysia: Would you care to elaborate? Do you think a feature resulting a debug output would help? That and many more inputs could lead us to a troubleshoot guide of some sort.

Before I first departed in the direction of Ojaveda I did check the booth you mentioned LigH. This is how I learnt, that there were chat commands (but that is another problem). I was in no mood for waiting (common trait for newbs I guess. We want all and right now it is in our nature. Let’s work on channeling it in the right direction) an explorer to log in. So I followed the road as I would do in RL. When I got to the crossing on Ojaveda Road 2 (close to the trepors) none of the signposts mentioned Ojaveda (I had no idea that they lead to the same place) and NPCs grew bigger and stronger by the road (Deneses thoughts: Yarrow turned into cutthroat? Wtf? Don’t eat me alive I’m too noob to die like this!).

I think we can all agree that quests need more diversity. I’m not against low level jobs in general for a newb, but mopping the floor would certainly come as a refreshment after an exhaustive training session for the virtual marathon. Since none of you like the idea of game-in-game (or simply don’t care) it is probably a dead end. Any suggestions? Rigwyns self made quests sound very promising. How would you make olbies interested in doing so? How do you find newbs? Have you tried to coach them (part OOCly)? How did that turn out?
Is there anything we could do in-game to help devs (if statistics wouldn’t)?

As for the economic stuff: I did try to barter. I wanted to exchange my glyphs to grunt gear. The good glyph merchant asked me what I wanted precisely, so he could look into it. I still have no idea what to ask for (cept uba swards maybe). So I have my glyphs stashed while a young magician might be crying her eyes out under a tree somewhere.
I think some of you got me wrong about mining. It is good that I needed to take on a side job and the balances there don’t need change. It can be easily related to real life (where you take a job for living and progression). It provides crafters and I can save money to buy better gear so I can slash monstros faster so I can lvl up fasta and mine more for the crafters. Wait! I can’t get better gear. Nobody sells ‘em. No problem. I can be patient till Oja market, but please don’t pity me in the meantime! Respect the work I’m doing for myself and the community. If you want to do something for me bring a campfire and some food to the grindig site. Huh? So practice empathy on your pets, because it is killing both my IC and OOC self. Newbs should be grinding (not just minerals but all kinds of stuff) for the whole thing to work. My only regret is that I’m flowing money away from PCs every time I buy from an NPC, and selling (almost) everything while rat tails might be just the one valuable for a midbie and he also grinds to get them. What are your opinions about the “wholesale” idea?
The attraction of new players could be tricky indeed. My path was google -> best open source games -> UFO AI -> PS. What was yours?
Denes
PS: Question marks address everybody.

Illysia

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Re: First week in Yliakum
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2012, 07:47:51 pm »
Hmmm... While I understand your RP plan, I don't think it will be a very fun way to play in Planeshift. It is more fun to mix more roleplaying in with your grinding. Also, it helps with the overall RP atmosphere as it cuts down on the amount of people that don't seem to RP very much. It also helps build up your notability to RP more, even in the beginning, since that will make other characters notice your character more than selling, harvesting, or mining.

Also, I would say that you are right about RP in Planeshift being more than RP in a AD&D sense. I am not familiar with RP in an AD&D sense but RP in MMOs is most definitely different from other forms of RP and Planeshift is different from other MMOs that have RPers. However, I would say that it is the openness of the possibilities that make it different and not the need to grind to actually progress. For instance, I RPed one of my characters as cooking long before the cooking system was implemented. I started her off as being a decent cook and left the cooking progression in her backstory. Even though I eventually stopped to quickly grind her skill in cooking up to the level that I RPed her at, I would often skip the cooking mechanics and just RP it even though the mechanics existed for it.

You aren't bound to the mechanics in this game and I admit that it can be both a good and a bad thing. But, it leaves a lot of flexibility for picking the path that will help your tell your character's story more efficiently. There are times when actually having some mined goods is useful, but at times they aren't crucial to the story. In Planeshift, I would always suggest picking the option that can save you more time for character and story development. For instance, sometimes strictly RPing crafting can take up more time than it would take to go over to the crafting tools and make something via mechanics. It really depends on the circumstance and sometimes the two will even overlap. I often RP while I mine. My poor character gets quite a few lumps from it too. :)

However, on defining Dev work: I can tell you that, most likely, the Devs already know most of the stuff that needs fixing. The problem is that they don't have enough people jumping in to help work things out. You can't change or fix anything without the manpower to do it. For instance, the Settings team is currently working through the Knowledge Seekers guild to try and get player submitted books into the game; however, in order for the Settings Dev to carry out that project, they need players to actually submit books. The same goes for getting new art, new code, and quest changes in the game. More players need to contribute or start signing up to be Devs to see more change.

However, players can definitely do quests and such from within the game as regular players and help without contributing. However, that is harder to pull off since you need more people to actually participate. The player run areas are a good example of what happens if you don't get enough player support. But, I wanted to have my apothecary character send out other characters out to gather ingredients for her at a fixed price per ingredient. It works to a certain extent but it rarely seems to get very big. Although I think that Indygo had the most success in such things recently. It seems he got a lot of players trying to help his character find a lost book of sentimental value.

On the Economy: Planeshift has always had an unstable economy and a fluctuating playerbase, so trying to apply real world economics to it is always going have a lopsided result. That is to say that the economy has been shot longer than it is has been in order. Right now: there is too much tria coming into the system from NPCs>> prices are inflated as a result>> people turn to doing everything themselves to offset the time spent and the cost>> there is little demand for surplus goods because everyone can get stuff themselves>> You turn to doing everything yourself since doing it to supply others doesn't do much good anyway. A complete overhaul of the economy is required to get a more naturally working economy and I don't see that happening any time in the next 10 years.

Also, the point of Planeshift is not to make you grind, it's to give you a platform for RPing. (Mind you, it is really really good at making you grind) So the grind should be minimal as it takes time away from other more meaningful character interactions and story development. I guarantee you that a lot of the wars and RP plots of the past would not have been as effective if they were constantly broken up by long bouts of grinding. But I do agree that it has its place... just a minimal place. :)

The way I found Planeshift was that I was looking for games online and I found Planeshift. Once started playing, I just hung around for the last 7 years... Good grief I've been hanging around here for a long time. ::| But planeshift was my first MMO... well, the first 3D MMO.

Oh, before I forget... my issue preventing me from getting in game is actually before I can get the client up. It is more of a windows issue. I get an error if I try to open any Planeshift application. The problem with PS and troubleshooting is that there are always new bugs that require different fixes than the last set of bugs. Knowing how to fix the old bugs sometimes helps but often doesn't help. Unfortunately, it always takes a community effort to corral our bugs.

(Sorry if there were English fails in this post but I'm not quite feeling well enough to do my normal 200 revisions of what I wrote.)