THE CHAMPION'S CUP

[tman]

I can't even watch them because my client is held together pretty much by hope, so that much magic at once would freeze me! Less magic would mean those with less stable clients could attend or watch.

If it's the graphics that's troubling your client, try turning shaders to lowest before events.  My computer used to really struggle with the amount of magic cast during, for example, Taz's "Dark Mage" events, but putting shaders to lowest disables spell effects.

[Bonifarzia]

Whoever is going to host the cup tomorrow should clarify in advance whether the use of armor (and ranged weapons) will be disallowed or if we stick to the usual (lack of) rules. I can understand if some folks would like to test their new, enchanted armors, though. 

Had no idea that armors became that strong - probably because I've never worn a crafted one 
I really like Boni's idea, so next month I'd try it. Hopefully the Cup will get more fun to play, and attract as many people as it used to!

[Gen]

If I manage to come tomorrow, the rules will be: no armor and no magic

[Magic lag is very bad indeed, and makes the Cup almost impossible to play or watch. The only way to stop it is to disable spell effects, which the casual player can't/won't do. Also, I really miss duel tournaments, and since nobody seems doing them anymore, this might be a good opportunity.]

As for ranged weapons, I don't see anything bad about them, unless I missed some update....?

If I can't manage to come, I'd like whoever will host the Cup to try out these rules, or at least something different to his discretion, because I believe that the Cup is no more fun as it should, these days.

[Bonifarzia]

As for ranged weapons, I don't see anything bad about them, unless I missed some update....?

I thought it is a bit to easy to hit from a distance and focus fire with a group of archers. Also, only few were given q300 bows during some GM-item market. On the other hand, weapon switching is interesting and food is still to strong, so why not...

[Sarko]

Anyway looking at the last Champion cup... Well i do not call that a champion cup Its for me just a cookies eating competition... Far away from the first Champion cup... So all my Congratulation to the best Cookies eater we ever had... (Sorry I dont remember his name)

[Bonifarzia]

I agree that healing with food is one of the biggest balance breakers, but actually, during the last few months this was not the crucial factor. I have observed a damage absorption of almost thousand hit points per hit (!!!) due to high quality armor, so physical attacks were effectively disabled. Thanks to Eonwinds effort to fix task 5713, as well as the major impact of task 5784 on weapon performance, I hope the situation is very different now.

Also, the initial idea of the champion's cup was to encourage teamwork and a common strategy, and I am convinced that with a good coordination of magical attacks it actually was and still is no problem to take out a cookie eater very effectively. It just requires people to work together and stack spell effects properly. The same goes for coordinated physical attacks, but those are really much harder to time.

Considering task 2389, I perfectly agree that fixing food would be highly beneficial for game balance, as it also encourages the production of healing potions. On the other hand, this should really go in tandem with a proper implementation of relaxing sleep (There are lots of tasks discussing the problems, e.g. PS#3861, PS#867, PS#354, PS#4644).

And by the way, congratulations to Karnath, I think his demonstration of various magic effects at least made some eye candy for the spectators.

[Eonwind]

I agree that healing with food is one of the biggest balance breakers, but actually, during the last few months this was not the crucial factor. I have observed a damage absorption of almost thousand hit points per hit (!!!) due to high quality armor, so physical attacks were effectively disabled. Thanks to Eonwinds effort to fix task 5713, as well as the major impact of task 5784 on weapon performance, I hope the situation is very different now.

Also, the initial idea of the champion's cup was to encourage teamwork and a common strategy, and I am convinced that with a good coordination of magical attacks it actually was and still is no problem to take out a cookie eater very effectively. It just requires people to work together and stack spell effects properly. The same goes for coordinated physical attacks, but those are really much harder to time.

Considering task 2389, I perfectly agree that fixing food would be highly beneficial for game balance, as it also encourages the production of healing potions. On the other hand, this should really go in tandem with a proper implementation of relaxing sleep (There are lots of tasks discussing the problems, e.g. PS#3861, PS#867, PS#354, PS#4644).

And by the way, congratulations to Karnath, I think his demonstration of various magic effects at least made some eye candy for the spectators.

as soon as the cooking update will be released the food effects will change, it will still be possible to stack food effects but exceeding will gives malus instead of bonuses
we're also thinking about adding a very small and light effect to consumable items (food, herbal, potions) just to give a visual warning when those items are used.

About relaxing sleep it's quite hard to find a good solution for the spell: forbidding the character to move while the spell is in effect is possible but will make the spell useless without preventing spellcasting at all, maybe reducing its power at higher level is a better solution but finding a good balancing point is not easy task.

On the other hand I want to rebalance the stamina use in combat and spellcasting. At the moment physical and magical stamina are useless and a fighter can goes on fighting endlessly without caring about stamina. Same can be said for spellcasters except mana drain gives a limit on its own.

[Bonifarzia]

Thanks for the insights, Eonwind, this sounds very promising.

Concerning relaxing sleep, I think the best solution may be to cancel the restorative effect as soon as the character performs any action such as moving, casting, attacking or using items. Honestly, that looks still quite useful to me, maybe lowering the effect in favor of much shorter casting times. I hope I am not going off topic, but this one seems relevant to me.

[dadela]

[..] just a cookies eating competition... [..] Congratulation to the best Cookies eater we ever had... [..]

It's been spend only 20 cookies during fight. Please, avoid making offending commentaries.

[Bonifarzia]

Boni has not consumed any cookies, but lots of other food in order to survive a three on one situation, so Sarko probably referred to her. Anyways, she has done well in the early days of the champion's cup when no food was available for healing, so I don't feel bad about it 

[Bonifarzia]

I would like to share a few thoughts after yesterdays champion's cup. I think with the current rules, this game could become quite interesting again, even though healing potions are way to useful right now (which should be no problem to fix). Since armor does no longer negate all weapons, players can actually make a difference supporting their guild also if they are not highly skilled. Magic has become quite  a bit more tactical, as I have tested with a friend: There are spells that effectively allow you disable a single target, and there are even ways to lower resistances, so with good teamwork, it should really be possible now to take down a single warrior like Boni. Keep in mind that archers are great for coordinated attacks now, and that no potions in the world will help you against a well organized group. Close range weapons can inflict heavy damage, but it is so much more difficult to time your attacks with friends. I think that's why mixed groups of warriors, mages of different ways and archers will proof much more successful in future cups, and that the game will then get back to the roots: A group fight where tactics and teamwork can outplay high stats and skills.

[dadela]

Oh dear Boni!
Are you requesting army of hight skilled in variety of ways mages to appear and punch last winner at the next cup, or you're expressing will to to make him or her pin cushion?.. Since army of old grinders you ask to have there; and seems, like before, it could be a only way for silly non-weaponers to change balances in the cup, don't you?.. Klyrosh like me would like to watch this! May be behind magic shield of some kind, may be not. Who knows. May be too much magic Should be gone.  Or may be not. May be she would like to find fresh meat there more than old enchanted and trained one. But there won't be any.

[Taya]

My only concern is that teamwork shouldn't be required in order for a group of mages to take on one single warrior. That's automatically placing weapon users as superior in all regards. A mage should have a chance in 1v1 combat with a weapon user. Five mages should have a chance against five weapon users. They of course should also have a chance against the mages in turn, which was the problem before.

As it stands, the current changes mean that the only regular team at the cup in recent months has quit. I'll probably offer myself out to any team that does want to give it a go in the future, as long as I don't need to guild switch, but I'm also feeling less motivated about taking part, at least until something is done about potion spam. I'd like to say our whole team will come back if potion spam is dealt with, but the weapon user to magic user potential damage differences / ways to reduce those types of damage just don't seem fair.

High level weapon users with optimal equipment, no matter how hard that equipment is to get, should not automatically be superior to high level magic users with the best equipment they can get when facing off in equal numbers.

(Just to note, I know balance is really really hard to get just right and that it's still being worked on, so this isn't a criticism of anyone, just my thoughts on the current situation exactly as it is right now.)

[Bonifarzia]

Heheh, I don't ask for anything, Dadela, the only thing I care about is that people are having a bit of fun 
And yeah, maybe the champion's cup is not the right thing for that, so hopefully people will find interest in other combat games again.

Taya, I agree with most of your points, and I will gladly have more discussions and experiments with you about these. My impression is that a mage can do fine in one on one against a warrior (depends on many factors), and that a group of mages might do far better than a group of close combat fighters. We will see how things evolve as more spells are added.