Author Topic: Turn-Based Combat and Quicktime Events  (Read 2455 times)

Suno_Regin

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Turn-Based Combat and Quicktime Events
« on: January 29, 2014, 02:18:35 am »
Note: Please read all the way through before commenting (take notes as you read if you have to). This idea needs thorough reading before productive criticisms can be given, unless the comments are unrelated to the actual suggestions and more related to the state of the game and what can be done to improve it. Thanks.

This is something that I'm migrating to the forums from Gossip chat because we were all, at the time, very overwhelmed with the various other topics being discussed at once. I feel this is important enough to make a post about because it's something that needs to happen in order to inspire a forward-thinking mentality, at the very least. I'm not saying that the system mentioned in the title would be the end-all system for PS's future, but it's something that PS could do very well, and most importantly, it will attract players of the 2014 era.

Now let me explain a little bit about this. There are three paths that can come from the ideas soon to be mentioned: pure turn based, pure quicktime, or a hybrid. Should the game adopt a pure turn-based system, what will happen is as follows. (Note: each idea requires a combat overhaul; combat is the selling point of most MMOs and needs to be addressed.) Turn-based combat will allow for a system much like that of common RP fights; a player and a mob (or a player and a player) will each take a "turn" executing a limited number of actions based on a treshold that dictates how many actions you can take per turn, much like Dungeons and Dragons. Move, attack, cast, etc.--whatever can possibly be done by the player--will be executed in a certain time before switching to the next combatant's turn.

Why would we go with turn-based combat, or any of these systems? It's simple. PlaneShift does not have the technology to support the combat systems of 2014 games. PlaneShift was on par with everything else 7 years ago, but today, we face the dilemma of being unable to attract new players due to what they find today compared to other games on the market. Turn-based games and quicktime events are still being used today in many popular RPGs, and these also allow for a more personal interaction with your character's actions as opposed to merely pressing a button and watching his or her hand hammer down until something dies. Turn-based combat will allow for an easily executed, scripted number of actions to be performed by the NPC (similar to what we have now, but more in depth) once certain requirements are met. If a boss NPC has a doomsday attack that he will not perform until he is threatened, he may execute that by spending a number of turns "charging," and that would be the make-or-break point for the player (or group of players) to take down this boss before it's too late.

Moving on, a pure quicktime event system would work as follows: combat is driven purely by the NPC or opposing player, not moderated by turns. What this means is that there are many, many choices available for the player to make. I envision this as entering a combat mode (similar to how turn-based combat would have to work) where your character's model will be surrounded by three or more "paths"; depending on the path the player chooses, the complexity of his or her actions will vary. There may be a simple path available when fighting a rat for slashing it through the eye, which would require you to press the W, A, and D keys on your keyboard at a slow rate; as a result, you would not collect the eye. Another path may have your character punching and kicking the rat until it wears down, which would require a quick combination of W, A, D, E, F; if you failed to finish in time or pressed a wrong key, the rat would attack you, requiring that you press another quick and spontaneous sequence that determines whether you take damage (or perhaps how much damage you take, depending). This type of system would appeal to those with quick reflexes and skill, as well as those who wish to personalize their character's kinds of responses and fighting styles. You could choose from an array of different "styles" created by the developers that determine the many, many paths available for quicktime combat, meaning that one style you choose will offer 7 different paths than another style that offers 7 unique ones to itself, thus allowing magic users of a certain Way to play just as differently as someone trained in sword fighting or a mix of both.

As for the hybrid of these two systems, quicktime events would have to be determined based on equal skill. There is a turn-by-turn basis, but only to be executed in the way of one person attacking and one person defending. Each person would get a list of options for avoiding a certain attack based on the pre-determined path that the attacker has chosen for his or her next attack, and the defender would then choose from a list of available defenses against that certain attack and "compete" with the attacker. Whoever presses their buttons quickly and accurately enough succeeds, and then the combatants switch roles, much like RP fighting. The first person to successfully execute everything wins by default, determining the skill. Training would allow you more time to execute things effectively, and possibly reduce the number of button presses necessary; even the most skilled player, at this point, could defeat an unskilled one if the unskilled one's levels were vastly higher.

The result of all of these systems would be that combat is more engaging. Combat will require a special kind of skill and incorporate individuality into the ways in which you can engage others. Roleplay will be able to mesh with combat because it will be your character in the mix, doing what your character is able to do, as opposed to watching your model hammer something repeatedly until it dies (and whatever little footwork and timing tricks are already present in combat).

These are not end-all systems, as I said before. These are things that we as a community must discuss due to the outdatedness of PlaneShift. We will not attract new players unless we have a system that is appealing for the 2014 era of MMO player. We may be able to sit here and say that things are fine, or that we should just worry about the PP vs. tria debate, but ultimately, we are the only ones playing this game, half of that because we experienced at least some of it back when it was still relevant. CrystalSpace does not offer the technology available for in-depth combat while using the current system, but it could certainly execute turn-based combat and quicktime successfully with very little effort outside of animations. These are also combat styles more familiar to RPG players, which is the leading producer of roleplayers in an MMO setting, as well.

As a community, I ask that we all give these systems and others some serious thought; we cannot go on like this, especially with our current population, and expect the game to succeed even when it is finished. We can say that it's pre-alpha, but all we're succeeding in doing is building onto the current system that was only relevant 7-or-more years ago and not today; the system needs some sort of overhaul to make it more interesting, not just simply more fair or rewarding, to attract the niche players who enjoy these kinds of systems much like the niche players who enjoy roleplay at all.

Thanks for reading to the end, if you have. I'd like to see what others have to say now that this has been formulated into a coherent idea.

Pakarro

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Re: Turn-Based Combat and Quicktime Events
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2014, 07:39:39 am »
I read it. And I don't agree. Evolution (also of ps) should be in a forward direction, and not backwards. I don't prefer to fight one ulber in 15 hours... :)

Better address shortcomings of the present system.

Just my opinion, though...
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Suno_Regin

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Re: Turn-Based Combat and Quicktime Events
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2014, 07:46:46 am »
Then at least explain what we can do with our current system that would appeal to any reasonable person from the 2014 gaming era. Something that this technology will ever be capable of.

Bonifarzia

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Re: Turn-Based Combat and Quicktime Events
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2014, 08:40:51 am »
Quote
...Combat and Quicktime Events
?
Makes me think of ... ;D

 
On topic: It is certainly not wrong to discuss where the game could go. But getting either of these systems done is something that would take a very long time, I assume. I think it is more interesting for the dev team to make small improvements on the current system that sum up to a better game experience. E.g. the overhaul to NPC behavior using NavMeshes, group behavior (tribe objects), spell casting, or taking the decision to flee, makes things already a bit more interesting. Yes, PvP is nothing else but a game of precise timing and movement. But at least changes to stamina rules did add a bit of tactics to that.
So where could we proceed? I like the QTE concept you mentioned, it works well if there are either several choices of different actions or nicely animated scenes as you proceed. The latter cannot be the way to go here, as animation is a lot of work and the production pipeline (file formats used etc) for PS seems to make it even much more tedious.
I don't know about adding more complexity to combat rules... you probably know that there was a GSoC project dealing with a new combat system, which made some nice progress, but in the end, it turned out to be very difficult to merge. If you don't, maybe this article is interesting:
http://194.116.72.94/pswiki/index.php?title=Combat_enhancements

Suno_Regin

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Re: Turn-Based Combat and Quicktime Events
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2014, 06:47:01 pm »
I was thinking that the current combat system, if anything were to be overhauled, would be used for different means, to not seem wasteful. Sports, for example, could make great use of this timing system, especially by activating stances and running up to perform an action in allotted time before getting the too far away message (running to kick a soccer ball and timing it so that you actually kick). It just doesn't seem adequate for combat currently.

I'll read that link over when I get a chance. :) I myself don't know the capabilities of the engine, and while I know that animations take a long time to do, adding animations only to the system we have currently would, I feel, be a step in the wrong direction.

Zalya

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Re: Turn-Based Combat and Quicktime Events
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2014, 02:04:06 am »
Personally, I love the idea of a turn based system. It would allow for much more in the way of fun, and RP in my mind. At least in a turn based system you could actually type a response in a mechanics fight. Honestly though, I don't see any sort of overhaul happening any time soon.

The great thing about PS though, is that it is different from most other MMO's. It needed focus on combat as its defining trait. Other parts of the game can be fun, and equally as rewarding, and they won't require a complete overhaul of the current system.
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Eonwind

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Re: Turn-Based Combat and Quicktime Events
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2014, 08:40:32 pm »
IMO the current system doesn't need to remade from scratch, the google summer of code project http://194.116.72.94/pswiki/index.php?title=Combat_enhancements has many features that will current system do a huge step forward.