Author Topic: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content  (Read 4539 times)

Glaciusor

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Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« on: April 29, 2014, 01:14:26 am »
I was thinking a bit about some things I've mentioned before, but now I'm interested in what people think about it.

Currently, there's no reliable way to direct aggressive NPCs to specific players in a group, nor are the buffing or healing spells particularly well oriented to group combat. Perhaps this should be changed some.

Currently the only AoE heal I know of requires you to master Blue Way, perhaps a few weaker ones should be added to BlW and CW, and maybe other Ways if they make sense. As well, regenerative spells (HoTs) would also be very useful for group combat to place on tanks or other members that happen to be being attacked or afflicted with a DoT.

I'm unaware of any reliable way to focus attacks on a single player. For those familiar with WoW, I'm referring to threat management. We have heavy armor and shields, all we'd need is either a special ability (which as far as I know may be in the pipeline but I'll mention it anyway) that can generate threat (a taunt) and perhaps AoE threat generation. Stance should also factor in; typically defensive stances in games generates more threat so if a tank goes defensive and casts flash, they should be able to generate more threat than another character using flash I think; this approach would mean casting should put a player in a stance or treat them as if they are in normal stance, but without the attacking warnings. Perhaps there could be a buff which increases the amount of threat you generate (probably at least one for each Way), one that can be cast on any friendly target.

And then we get to buffs. Some can be cast on friendly players, some can't be but it won't cast it on you if you have something else targeted (gives you an error message), then some cast on you regardless of what is targeted; these should probably be cleaned up and refactored to make them consistent, and reconsider which ones should be able to be cast on group members (while leaving some as perks for picking a certain Way). Group-wide buffs are important and encourage people not to just focus on the Ways that deal the most damage. Perhaps a master Red Way user can boost everyone's strength, while a master Brown Way user can boost defenses.

Finally, can we get a res? For quick-thinking, high-level CW healers it should be possible to revive someone if they've not yet gone to the Death Realm; the description of CW even says that this should be possible. This makes sense especially with role-focused characters in a group. This would probably be one of the draws to having a CW healer with you (where BlW would be for the massive AoE healing).

With these various types of abilities added/modified, group combat will be a lot more practical, and a lot more attractive as well. This will further increase how people focus on their skills and should help keep people from trying to become "master of everything" if they find they like a specific combat role better than others, and since players can pick both a weapon and a Way you could get some very interesting combinations when you factor in role specialization.

I also find that good group combat opportunities can be both a lot of fun, but also can work towards playerbase cohesiveness; most of the people in my raid group on WoW I didn't know when I started, and we're all pretty good friends now. This is also not to mention the doors that are opened to further development, things such as dungeons and raids (stone labyrinth runs, anyone?), smaller events that can be held in separate instances, world bosses that can drop rare and sought after loot that only spawn once every few hours...
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Choppa

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2014, 01:20:46 am »
Why?

Glaciusor

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2014, 02:15:18 am »
Why not?

What's the point of having a group option, with difficult enemies and such, in a cohesive game such as PlaneShift, without grouping mechanics properly baked in? It seems like the next logical step, and could dramatically improve PvE in the game and the experience of those who enjoy PvE combat.
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Bonifarzia

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2014, 11:24:55 am »
Keep faith with your healing abilities! There is a very nice low realm AoE spell.
Healing over time: Get some food, but beware of indigestion.
Attracting baddies? I don't know if there have been improvements in AI response to specific targets or groups. Standing close to a creature and repeatedly casting some fast debuff or attack spell should work anyway.
I fully agree that more cooperative game play is highly welcome. I think players will get more creative once even tougher enemies are available, or whenever team work really helps to progress more conveniently with any task.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 02:13:33 pm by Bonifarzia »

Glaciusor

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2014, 03:09:56 pm »
Right, there are some spells that let you do certain things (though I completely forgot that CW spell was AoE XD). I just meant, it's not very widespread and a few either don't exist or you have to kinda trick the system like the tanks having to run right up to every creature and trying to fast debuff them, and hope the rest don't run off to the casters because one of them decided to spam meteor or energy arrow/machine gun.

My thoughts were more about fleshing out a few key things common to other group combat systems to make group combat here a bit more organized - not having every player doing everything, which aligns well with skill set specialization. Really, a taunt spell/ability and a way to increase threat generation are the only must-haves, the others are just improvements on that to make things smoother. Examples of such spells might be "Death's Grasp" for DW or "Inflame" for RW; Flash may also be a great AoE threat grab for CW.

Just a final note, because players pretty much have to fend for themselves and fulfill every role, nearly everyone learns CW, and you'll have muscular mages in heavy armor so that they can take a hit without becoming food or a splatter mark on the ground. Without such a high necessity for this, players will probably resist specialization a little less.
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Bonifarzia

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2014, 05:12:14 pm »
Really, a taunt spell/ability and a way to increase threat generation are the only must-haves (...) Flash may also be a great AoE threat grab for CW.
I really like to use dazzling light for that, as it attracts anything in a wide range - lots of fun in the expert gladiator pit  :D 

Glaciusor

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2014, 07:02:15 pm »
So I forgot another spell... I've not played in far too long >.<... dazzling light is what I had in mind :)
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bilbous

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2014, 08:33:38 pm »
That didn't seem to work the same way last time I tried, neither did darkness. Perhaps it was due to a half dead npc client.

Glaciusor

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2014, 03:07:02 pm »
Yeah... some area of effect spells are a bit wierd/broken. I've not used dazzling light in... *thinks for a bit*... no less than 2 years ago, but I remember the AoE version of energy arrow I completely forgot the name of (shows you how much I used it) doesn't work in a proper cone; nothing between you and the target is hit, and often times things behind the target aren't hit either. Assuming it *does* hit everything properly though, the issue is that it's not a proper taunt; it won't necessarily grab enemies attacking other targets to yourself.

I'll probably be able to give this a shot soon anyway, likely on the weekend where time is only bounded by the end of work on Friday, and Sunday night. I actually have a use for Glaciusor in group combat interestingly enough; I'll be able to test the "fast debuff" thing as well as dazzling light's effect.
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Bonifarzia

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 03:23:10 pm »
I'll be able to test the "fast debuff" thing as well as dazzling light's effect.
The latter works fine for the former.

Hit detection with missile shower and some other "conical" attacks has been broken for a long time due to some bug (radians vs degree, maybe?), but I think that was fixed (far?) more than a year ago. Yet I have the feeling enemies are sometimes missed even if you shoot something right next to them. But that does not matter much for this topic, as there are several spells that hit everything in an AoE around the targeted enemy. What really could and should be tested in a group is whether beasties will run "through" passive warriors to punch a ranged attacker who grabbed their attention, or if they just attack any group member alike. I don't know.

Glaciusor

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2014, 07:20:11 pm »
Huh, never actually thought to test that behavior. I'll try experimenting and see what comes up.
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bilbous

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2014, 12:09:52 am »
Critters seen through the view port may be in a location other than where they seem. Just because they look like they ought to be affected doesn't mean they actually should.

Kaerli_Stronwylle

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2014, 04:51:42 pm »
As someone who has a LA/squishy (base stats), yet high level, Azure mage among his stable of characters, I'd like to speak to a facet of magical combat that has not yet come up in this thread, and that's kiting and range control.  While there are rooting spells in PS at the moment, they seem to be of extremely short duration (or at least they were when I last tested them); this means that kiting at the moment either requires one to be mounted, or to get the NPCs in terrain where they have to hesitate before making their next move.  With all this, it's possible to drop an Ulber with only L50 AzW + a couple dozen levels of LA w/ Q300 leather.

This does raise two questions though:
1) is this sort of kiting gameplay desirable?
2) is there a reason that rooting magic does not have a significant (10-15s minimum, preferably 30s or up) effect to it?  That right there would be a huge balancing force tipping the fight in favor of squishy-yet-smart mages over big, dumb NPCs with proverbial sledgehammers.

snofishbukblade

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2014, 10:33:12 pm »
Very interesting thoughts. Question: Have the OP's concerns been addressed?

The OP said specializing in combat is hard to do in Planeshift. The OP stated that because there's no good threat management then all players must learn defensive skills and wear good armour. This reduces their ability to specialize. The OP also stated because the way spells/skills are made (or used?), it's difficult to use them effectively on other group members. This similarly causes group members to learn as many skills as possible and to turn away from specializing.

I want to add specializing helps us to distinguish ourselves from other players. This assists us in roleplaying because we're RPing a unique character. In combat, these roles can be: rogue, warrior, wizard, archer, spellsword, healer, etc. It's not as fun when we -all- have to play the same ambiguous role. This is NOT to say playing a jack-of-all-trades can't be something attractive.

So how effective is combat specializing in the current version of Planeshift?
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bilbous

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Re: Some thoughts on spells/skills with regards to group content
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2014, 11:29:45 pm »
I think that the many duelists over the years have taught us, if you learn to dance well enough the critters never hit you with melee attacks. This gets complicated by their magic abilities as you cannot dodge a spell. Now I have yet to meet a critter whose top speed matches mine so as a spellcaster you can run/walk-cast any critter. As long as they keep running to try to catch you they cannot cast a spell on you. Using a mount make it a lot less dangerous as you are that much faster and can give yourself a bigger buffer. As long as they can't close on you they can't hit you, either.