Author Topic: Better 3d object handling!  (Read 973 times)

Saadow Leon

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Better 3d object handling!
« on: August 23, 2003, 06:20:24 pm »
Honestly. I love the concept behind planeshift, but for the Crystal Blue release, I beseech you to consider at least making a beta of either an LOD (Level of detail) or a fog cancling system. I dont know how the engine handles its graphics and 3d objects, but the way Quake used to do it was that anything that wasnt in the players view wasnt drawn.

Basically what Im wishing for is the ability to log onto planeshift like everybody else, but actually be able to walk and move at a resonable rate. The most lag I experience is from how the client handles its graphics, even at the lowest settings.
\"We cannot enter into alliances until we are familiar with the designs of our neighbours.\" -Sun Tzu

Keldorn

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« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2003, 06:31:36 pm »
Trust me, they know what they are doing.
LOD, fog, all of it is being worked on. If it\'s for Crystal Blue, wouldn\'t know. Wouldn\'t be surprised if it wasn\'t.
m.vanes

Evanchild

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« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2003, 06:54:07 pm »
it is planeed for chrystal blue but probibly won\'t happen.
teenmethod
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Drilixer

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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2003, 03:07:27 am »
this has been discussed many times but... according to the devs the current lag problems is not due to what you described... and they are highly against fog...

boonet

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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2003, 05:10:28 pm »
We are not against fog for a question of principle. Let\'s try to clarify a bit this question:

1) you can get an increase in framerate by rendering less objects on screen.
2) you can have less objects to render on screen by applying a far clipping plane = past a certain distance from you the objects are simply not drawn.
3) when objects beyond the clipping plane (=not visible) travel through it because you are getting closer to them, there is a visible popping effect = those objects appear suddenly out of thin air, with an effect that is not nice to see.
4) to hide the popping around the clipping plane, usually a fog layer is applied: it conceals the point where the objects appear, but the objects are still being drawn, even if covered by the fog.

This said, why don\'t we have fog in MB?

a) because the clipping plane was not working or implemented or efficient when we released it, so we did not have to hide points where objects were appearing.
b) (very important) because fog had to be drawn in a second pass over the already rendered houses, thus contributing in reducing even more the framerate.

Of course there are plans to solve these questions, and the CS team is steadily progressing in order to have a viable solution. But what I\'d want to make clear is that adding fog is not the magical solution to the fps problem, and that we\'ve been considering its implementation (with all the correlated features) in MB: if it\'s not there it\'s not because we simply ignored the existence of it, but because of precise technical reasons.

Saadow Leon

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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2003, 05:23:00 am »
Okay, thank you very much for all of your answers, I can see now thats why they wernt using fog in the MB release. Its just, I want to get to the bottom of why I cant even walk in a straight line- Im running on a decient XP computer, and both my old computer and new laptop do run the MB engine, its just the question of functionality- and I wasnt sure what the lag was, but it didnt seem to be netlag. I experienced similar lag in games like gothic until I had fixed the fog option on it, and changed some render options. The other idea was a LoD, a level of detail- they use such technology in JKII JO- the farther away you are, a lighter poly 3d object is used.  Just a thought. Its good to know it wasnt just dropped or anything- I had sent an email to some staffers a time back about this and the way I got my answer kind of lead me to believe they were moreso concerned on play mechanics then graphical functionality- but of course everyone has their own style of building things.
\"We cannot enter into alliances until we are familiar with the designs of our neighbours.\" -Sun Tzu

Vengeance

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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2003, 07:12:24 am »
Also I personally just think fog sucks.  I see it in a game and I think \"Oh their engine had performance problems.\"

We all agree that CS has performance problems in MB, as documented in at least 1000 posts here, and we all know the CS dev team is working on fixing them.

Let\'s just see how things improve with each new version...

- Venge

Fish

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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2003, 02:13:50 am »
I really only played with a crystal space engine little bit.  But it occurred to me that the popping effect that Boonet describes in point three in his discussion might be mitigated by having a second object with far less polygons.  The second object is designed to look like the first object at a distance.  As you get closer instead of having it pop it substitutes the low resolution object for the real thing.

I?m kind of out of my depth on this one but the logic seems sound.  In the OpenGL standard there is a method for changing the size of a texture by using multiple images at half sizes.  I don?t see why the same method couldn?t be used for an object to substantially reduce polygon counts.
Doing things just for the halibut.

Drilixer

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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2003, 02:47:33 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Fish
I really only played with a crystal space engine little bit.  But it occurred to me that the popping effect that Boonet describes in point three in his discussion might be mitigated by having a second object with far less polygons.  The second object is designed to look like the first object at a distance.  As you get closer instead of having it pop it substitutes the low resolution object for the real thing.

I?m kind of out of my depth on this one but the logic seems sound.  In the OpenGL standard there is a method for changing the size of a texture by using multiple images at half sizes.  I don?t see why the same method couldn?t be used for an object to substantially reduce polygon counts.


lol *amazed* how do you know that?

boonet

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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2003, 03:56:00 am »
Fish, you\'re talking about object Level Of Detail (LOD), which is an even different issue. This helps reducing the polycount of far objects, getting more or less the same visual result from the player point of view, but having to handle less things inside the engine. The \'popping\' I am describing (sorry if I\'ve chosen the wrong word) is the effect of things appearing suddenly in the middle of the sky when crossing the far clipping plane. It\'s a totally different issue. In fact LOD is something that CS guys are working on right these days (and some experiments showed it works and helps a lot ;-) ), but it\'s totally unrelated to clipping plane/fog questions.

Multiple textures resolutions at different distances is called mipmapping, and that is already in MB and working.

Drilixer

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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2003, 03:58:09 am »
Quote
Originally posted by boonet
Fish, you\'re talking about object Level Of Detail (LOD), which is an even different issue. This helps reducing the polycount of far objects, getting more or less the same visual result from the player point of view, but having to handle less things inside the engine. The \'popping\' I am describing (sorry if I\'ve chosen the wrong word) is the effect of things appearing suddenly in the middle of the sky when crossing the far clipping plane. It\'s a totally different issue. In fact LOD is something that CS guys are working on right these days (and some experiments showed it works and helps a lot ;-) ), but it\'s totally unrelated to clipping plane/fog questions.

Multiple textures resolutions at different distances is called mipmapping, and that is already in MB and working.


\"mipmapping\".. who comes up with these names?  That\'s awesome!

derwoodly

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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2003, 11:16:10 am »
If PS can put out a game that does not have distant objects \"pop\" into view you will be one up on the other MMORPG\'s  that I have seen.

What game does not have this feature?