AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH

[Foresteer]

Granted on windows security.. they make a fine OS (dos) and a descent GUI for it (windows) but thier software for said os/gui isn\'t very safe... if you get windows and use other programs fo the e-mail, web browsing, FTP, web development and get a good firewall (kerio is a great one) your actualy quite safe

[miLosh]

 FYI i dont know alot about mount points, and i didnt know what exact model monitor i was running or cd/dvd drive. I\'d count myself as pretty computer literate, but not in that area of expertise.  If linux was as simple as windows, i would install it ASAP, but im not going to risk blowing out my monitor because i chose the wrong driver and its sending invalid input to it.  Im not saying linux sucks, im sure once you\'ve set it up its alot better, but saying its as simple / easier to install than windows is
1) Distorted by the fact you are very competent with computers and
2) wrong.

correct me if im wrong, but humans do not have a micro$oft gene build in right now - or do thay? i have to update my biology teacher...

seriously, even how windoze works has to be learned. you did not know from birth how to install a driver - nor that you need one at all - how to probably run regedit.exe or setup your screen resolution in the control panel. you had to learn this all as i had to learn what a mountpoint is, or how to start xf86config.

and, the times are over where you could blew your monitor with a wrong setting. not speaking about gentoo, there you make everything at our own (because you want it so) but looking at suse, redhat and the like, there is really no big difference anymore to setup a windoze system. and, it IS easier. my dad - sick after 2 years of using windoze - got a suse 9.2 from me for christmas. he is definitely no pc genius, but interrested, yes. he was able to install everything on its own, set te graphics settings, install additional programs and setup adsl, email. and you know what? after he was finished with installing suse, all devices where configured, even the TV card - he did not have to install one single driver for anything. how much simplier can it be?

now here\'s a quote from a recent call i had with my mother (she uses dos/windoze since 1992):
mom: hello son, can you help me? my firewall does not start
me: yeah so right click on the icon and say start
mom: i tried that, but it says that i have not the right installation medium choosen
me: ehm, so deinstall it and try again
mom: okay, just wait.....
mom: it says it cannot find the installation medium, can we go to netmeeting and you fix it?
me: ehm sorry mom, im quite busy in two irc chats right now, let us do it later
.... some talk about life in general.....
mom: hey son you know what? i dont know why, but the firewall has started now when i tried to open iexplorer. its a miracle, i wanted to deinstall it and now its working....
me: sighs reliefed....

well, you see this is how it is with windoze - either it works, or it doesnt. if it does not work, a \'normal\' user as you call them has no chance to fix it. why? because micro$oft never wanted you to fix anything. that is different with linux. yes, you need to know something about your OS, but in reward, a \'normal\' linux user can fix most of the problems on it\'s own.

And lastely, microsoft propoganda ministry?  Just as much as you\'re from the naive linux zealots group.  I dont like mircosoft, but i keep an air of objectivity when i attack them instead of just attacking them for the sake of it.

no, your words sounded exactly like coming from micro$oft. don believe me? well, here\'s a link to a document micro$oft has sent do his partners, unfortunately i have it only in german, maybe you find someone to translate it or google for \'linux partner brosch\':
http://plexus.shacknet.nu/plexus.php?section=ebookz&down=linux_partner_brosch.pdf

i did not ment to offend you, but you used the same type of exaggeration about how hard it is to use linux like im used to hear it from micro$oft.

[miLosh]

Originally posted by Foresteer
Well when a Linux GUI doesn\'t let you do what you need.. you exit the GUI and use the base text mode yes?
......
idiots XD its just the shell/gui of DOS learn dos and 99% of your windows problems vanish into thin air

how much does this help you if the graphic driver does not work or \"KEY: blablabla cannot be found in registry\"?
with win95 you where maybe right, but todays windoze problems have mostly todo with the gui, windoze so to call. dos can save you nothing, most \'administration tools\' you need are not running in dos (\"this programm cannot be run in dos mode....\" - sounds familiar?\")

[ramlambmoo]

 no, your words sounded exactly like coming from micro$oft. don believe me? well, here\'s a link to a document micro$oft has sent do his partners, unfortunately i have it only in german, maybe you find someone to translate it or google for \'linux partner brosch\':
http://plexus.shacknet.nu/plexus.php?sec...tner_brosch.pdf

i did not ment to offend you, but you used the same type of exaggeration about how hard it is to use linux like im used to hear it from micro$oft.

Well you use the exaggeration about how stupid windows is and hard much it crashes that im used to hearing from a linux zealot.  Oh wait, thats right, you are one.  Seriously, i dont work for microsoft (lmao oxymoron- work for microsoft heh heh) but i just get pissed when people bag them for no reason.  Ok they make a whole lot of bad products but they\'re not that bad.  
Um i dont speak german, and trust me i dont think a translation will do any good, going by google translator or babelfish (try putting a sentence in english, translate it to german and then back again, and you\'ll see what i mean ).  Im sure Microsoft do exaggerate how much effort linux is, just like linux exagerate how bad windows is.  Thats because they\'re opposed to one another.  Tell me with a straight face that linux people\'s dont exagerate how easy linux is and how much of a pain windows is, and ill tell you with a straight face that windows ME is a good o/s.  

 seriously, even how windoze works has to be learned. you did not know from birth how to install a driver - nor that you need one at all - how to probably run regedit.exe or setup your screen resolution in the control panel. you had to learn this all as i had to learn what a mountpoint is, or how to start xf86config.  

Yes but it\'s all there.  You goto help and say \"change screen resolution\" and it says ok goto control panel and do this and yardy yarder.  When you\'re installing linux it dosnt tell you how to use mount points and what not or which screen your using.  Ok, you can go to an internet forum but thats not much help if i\'ve formatted my computer is it?  Im talking from my own experience with linux here.  Ok, if i spent quite a few hours reading up on the subject and going to forums and boards and discussing it then I could have figured it out, but guess what?  I dont have the time to do that, nor do i want to.  Win XP says hey, we know what monitor your using and all your hardware, you just click next next next next next.  OK windows crashes a bit- meh.  So shoot me.  When i get around to figuring out linux and mount points, ill give it a try, and im sure ill transform into a linux zealot boasting how much better my life is, but win xp does me fine for now.  

well, you see this is how it is with windoze - either it works, or it doesnt. if it does not work, a \'normal\' user as you call them has no chance to fix it. why? because micro$oft never wanted you to fix anything. that is different with linux. yes, you need to know something about your OS, but in reward, a \'normal\' linux user can fix most of the problems on it\'s own.

Wow, it either works or it dosnt- amazing powers of deduction.  FYI, ive never had a windows error i cant fix.  I get a crash maybe once every..... meh 5 days?  So i just go back into the program and it works.  Thats the trade off i pay for not having to worry about screen drivers and mount points and partitioning my hard drive and making sure i have linux versions of everything and getting used to a different word editor etc etc.  I dont doubt that linux overall once installed is a better o/s- but for me, and i suspect a large portion of everyday users, the benifits just arnt great enough to justify a change.  Theres a reason why windows has over 90% of the maket- because its simple.  And in a world of idiots, thats what gets you 90% of the market.

[miLosh]

Im sure Microsoft do exaggerate how much effort linux is, just like linux exagerate how bad windows is.  Thats because they\'re opposed to one another.  

not quite - you are right, it may sound to people not as \'religious\' as i am in this point like an exageration when i speak about micro$oft  - and windoze in particular - about beeing bad. the reason i call micro$oft bad, is that they are closed-source, and money driven (thats why i spell the \'s\' in micro$oft with a dollar, in case you didnt notice). that in mind i will find thousands of points to argue why windoze is bad. i admit that, im spoiled, im a fanatic, i simply hate micro$oft for the fact that they make software not to help people but themself.

alright, i think i explained know why i will never admit that there is a good point in windoze

Tell me with a straight face that linux people\'s dont exagerate how easy linux is and how much of a pain windows is, and ill tell you with a straight face that windows ME is a good o/s.  

*miLosh makes a straight face and says: linux people tell others that linux is easy and windoze is a big big pain - for they are right

truly, i do not like much to work with suse for myself, but i was quite impressed to see how simple the installation is meanwhile. put the cd in, choose what type of system you want to have (multimedia, developing, gaming, all together) and 2 hours later you have the system ready. you do NOT need to install any driver or configure them - you do NOT need even to open the buildin help system (which is by far more useful than the one on windoze, sorry) and you do NOT need to mount your cd\'s manually. this times are over, as for suse, linux is getting more userfriendly that i could ever imagine 8 years ago when i started with it.

but, i have to admit, this works only with more or less well known hardware. if you use some exotic piece of hw, you do need to know how to compile a driver by hand. yes, that sucks. but whom to blame for it, linux? or maybe the hardware manufacturer who has an exclusive contract with micro$oft and do not want to publish drivers for linux? you will blame linux maybe, but the linux community is doing a great work in reverse-engineering even the most exotic hardware to have it run on tux - i admire that.

Yes but it\'s all there.  You goto help and say \"change screen resolution\" and it says ok goto control panel and do this and yardy yarder.  When you\'re installing linux it dosnt tell you how to use mount points and what not or which screen your using.  

you really need to update yourself about the actual state of modern linux distributions. go and get yourself a suse live cd, you will never have to choose a mountpoint if you do not want to. and the (online) help system is at least as good as on windoze, i find it even more usefull for it helps me also if i have problems with a particular piece of hardware - sure windoze help can help you here?

Win XP says hey, we know what monitor your using and all your hardware, you just click next next next next next.  OK windows crashes a bit- meh.  So shoot me.  When i get around to figuring out linux and mount points, ill give it a try, and im sure ill transform into a linux zealot boasting how much better my life is, but win xp does me fine for now.  

as i said, modern distributions know as much of your system as windoze does, only that the distributions do not send this information to their manufacturer

Theres a reason why windows has over 90% of the maket- because its simple.  And in a world of idiots, thats what gets you 90% of the market.

i doubt that. the reason is, micro$oft has a hell lot of money, can run big advertisments and buy every software company they like to have it develope windoze only software. and this is the main reason why my mother did not change to linux. everytime i tell her: well, if you do not want this error, change to linux - she answers me: i would like to, but all my software is running on windoze.

as for wordprocessors, openoffice is at least as good as office xp - though not yet as stable (but it will be, even more) - and differs not much from it. you can even edit .doc files. as for other software broadly used on windoze (no, not solitare) it looks different. as long as they do not start to port their software to linux, linux will always be called a \'freak\' system.

[ramlambmoo]

you really need to update yourself about the actual state of modern linux distributions. go and get yourself a suse live cd, you will never have to choose a mountpoint if you do not want to. and the (online) help system is at least as good as on windoze, i find it even more usefull for it helps me also if i have problems with a particular piece of hardware - sure windoze help can help you here?  

I tried installing um lindows i think it was (they\'re called linspire now to stop getting sued) so perhaps i should try again with a more friendly, up to date linux distro.  But at the moment i cant see myself downloading the 1 gig or so, since i only had 128 ADSL.  Ill do it eventually, but meh~
Oh and have you updated yourself with the windows distributions?  Cause if you\'re basing your knowledge on something like ME, and im talking about XP, well theres your problem lol.

but, i have to admit, this works only with more or less well known hardware. if you use some exotic piece of hw, you do need to know how to compile a driver by hand. yes, that sucks. but whom to blame for it, linux? or maybe the hardware manufacturer who has an exclusive contract with micro$oft and do not want to publish drivers for linux? you will blame linux maybe, but the linux community is doing a great work in reverse-engineering even the most exotic hardware to have it run on tux - i admire that.

Most probablly true, but meh? Im a computer user, not a corporate activist. Im not going to boycott windows because of their shoddy practicies with hardware manufactures.  90% of the population dont care why it dosnt work- the fact remains it dosnt.  But im sure as you said it will get better as the work progresses.  I admire them for their work, but my admiration dosnt make my computer work unfortunatly.

as for wordprocessors, openoffice is at least as good as office xp - though not yet as stable (but it will be, even more) - and differs not much from it. you can even edit .doc files. as for other software broadly used on windoze (no, not solitare) it looks different. as long as they do not start to port their software to linux, linux will always be called a \'freak\' system.

Dude, even i could make a good word processor.  Just gimme delphi any version and a week.  Truth be told, i use notepad for most of my work.  Thing about word is, im used to it. Im sure openoffice can do everythig word can do, but it\'s just a bit annoying to go through the familiarisation process again.

 i doubt that. the reason is, micro$oft has a hell lot of money, can run big advertisments and buy every software company they like to have it develope windoze only software. and this is the main reason why my mother did not change to linux. everytime i tell her: well, if you do not want this error, change to linux - she answers me: i would like to, but all my software is running on windoze.

Yeah, that and its simple.  Oh, did i mention its simple?  Microsoft didnt start out with a stack of money, it got the stack of money by making simple o/s for stupid people.  Now it\'s just more effective because they make simple os for stupid people and run huge ads about it and pressure software and hardware companies to comply.

*miLosh makes a straight face and says: linux people tell others that linux is easy and windoze is a big big pain - for they are right  

*ramlambmoo makes a straight face....: Windows ME is ..ummmm.. its ARGH I CANT DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It goes against all logical, ethical and religious ideals that i have.  Besides, i said tell me that linux people dont exagerate the truth.  They are right,- to a degree.

[miLosh]

unfortunately you are right in most points, there are not much people around who care about \'computer ethics\' so to say and they wont change to linux as long as companies do not start to make software and drivers for linux.

fortunately, companies like suse, err. novel and redhat are working hard to achieve this goal and i am pretty confident that some day linux will reach a state of popularity as windoze does today and will be usable too by the remaining \'90%\'

the thing about openoffice is, that they forked from staroffice some 3-4 years ago and its not only the word processor, its a full suite as officexp is. the most unstable part of it to me is the spreadsheet program (->excel) for if you click on the wrong point, it crashes. i only can hope that this will change soon.

and you are wrong, micro$oft did not get rich by making a very easy OS - apple had a GUI OS long before bill did even dream about windoze. its the simple fact that he was the first to make an OS not bound to a specific hardware model, but usuable by any so-called IBM-compatible pc. yes, that was a masterpiece he alone achieved, no doubt with that. pity only, that even before he  bought dos from ibm for 50k $ he was fanatic against opensource - there\'s a movie called \'OS Revolution\' explaining pretty well that fact. bill did always deal with software only for one purpose: to make him incredible rich....

[Foresteer]

Originally posted by miLosh

Originally posted by Foresteer
Well when a Linux GUI doesn\'t let you do what you need.. you exit the GUI and use the base text mode yes?
......
idiots XD its just the shell/gui of DOS learn dos and 99% of your windows problems vanish into thin air

how much does this help you if the graphic driver does not work or \"KEY: blablabla cannot be found in registry\"?
with win95 you where maybe right, but todays windoze problems have mostly todo with the gui, windoze so to call. dos can save you nothing, most \'administration tools\' you need are not running in dos (\"this programm cannot be run in dos mode....\" - sounds familiar?\")

thats because they have DOS counterparts that dont need graphics

most of your windows myths that your \"linux clutists bible\" is built on are relics of win95/ME (98 was actualy pretty ok) and dont apply today.. so sorry try again! lets go to our next contestent

i mean i COULD use linux if i felt... but why would i want to? the only thing i ever use my PC for is gaming, emulation and the occasion mp3 (yeah i said it you RIAA corporate whores!! \\o/ )

On gaming linux offers me nothing.. or at least nothing that windows doesnt have only better or the same without having to \"ok open emulation using code mount at using ... not working? did you install , , , and ? this game has those dependancies you know... jeez this is so simple is it not?! how can windows people and everybody not get it?!\" soo Basicaly linux is like early chemistry.. you had to remeber every chemical and how it reacted to every other chemical on memory.. same with linux dependancies.. you have to remeber each of them, what needs them (and since every script kiddy in the nation/world feels they become \"3l33t\" by writing a linux code that list grows daily) and how each dependancey reacts to another dependancy

i mean like i said i have the techincal and other knowledge to use linux. but why would i want to? only emulation has a FEW linux counter parts... so for me linux is just a novelty OS :/ a trinket just in the name of open sorce (which is cool.. but offers (almost) nothing to anybody who does code to an insane degree develop seriously big stuff that needs such a technical OS or just use a browser)

now i only have a descent understanding of linux so correct anything you feel i have said wrong

[miLosh]

thats because they have DOS counterparts that dont need graphics

i would really like to know how you edit the registry within dos - with edit?

On gaming linux offers me nothing..

well, our beloved planeshift runs on linux? hehe

but i got your point and you are right. for closed-source games linux is not the OS to use for one can hardly find a game which runs nativly on linux. again, whom to blame for? there are companies who port there games to linux, like untreal tournament (cant think of the name of the company) because they understand that this is what linux needs.  

yes, i do play also alot of games and i do boot windoze for exactly the same reason as you do. but i do not play all the time, i have a network to care about (all linux/unix), i program, surf in the internet, am quite a time in irc and so on. i do this all on linux, windoze is just booted if i could not resist and got a closed-source game not running on linux.

i mean like i said i have the techincal and other knowledge to use linux. but why would i want to?

if you have the technical knowledge, than exactly this could be one reason to run linux - for it lets you know your system, something very important to me, what bill gates do not want you to. concerning the whole TCPA/TCG shit he said: future systems running windoze will be like another machine in the users multimedia park, we do not want to have them thinker around the system.

in plain words: your future windoze will be nothing more than an XBox with wordprocessor.

i mentioned what i am doing on linux. i seldom dare to go to the internet on windoze, for i do not have any avir programm nor firewall installed on it - i do not want to be dragged in the \'cyber-paranoia\'. so, security is a big issue, i hope you do not argue on that point with me. stability is another one, memory management the next point, windoze lacks a proper memory management, it has not the multitasking abilities im used from linux and it has a lack of network capatibilities. if i need an ftp client i have to download it, if i need an irc client i have to download it, tools like nmap and so on need an additional socket driver to be installed and so on and on and on....

so to me, there are plenty of reasons for using linux and only one for using windoze

and yes, it gives me a good feeling to use an opensource OS rather than a closed-source blackbox.

[Foresteer]

actualy i believs its regedit.exe XD but its been a while since i have had to do that from dos so it may have changed (i spent 6 months just in dos trying to fix this totaly fried nuked win 95 system given to me O.O... how somebody could screw widows and CMOS up that bad i\'ll never know)

True about the black box.. i am very unpleased in the direction windows is taking... bill gates just used to be one of the nerds.. but now hes gone all corporate like the MPAA/RIAA, gas companies etc. :/ i\'d still use windows 98 or hell even 3.11 if i could

I do honestly hope linux gets better... and perhaps less complex... because i like doing technical things... but not every time i open a wordprocessor \"ok now to open the porcessor partition drive C:\\ run C++ write and compile a word processor mount in make new directories debug defragment recreate file system to accomidate new progam and run! its that simple \" so i like linux for beng so technical.. but i hate it for being so technical ALL the time XD at least the last release i used was :/

and PS isn\'t enough to make me use linux as gaming im sorry its not even a whole game yet (someday!)

EDIT: the thing i like about windows is its a simple or complex as you want it to be (most of the time) you can change and tweak and ramp up the technicality of it or just KISS

[Tarachnul]

as i said earlier the main reason i prefer linux over windows is because of security issues(which btw you agreed with me on)

i mean sure if you use firefox/mozilla (respectively as they are different despite both being made by mozilla) as your browser get a decent antispayware prgrm and a good anti virus protection program(are they protecting against anti viral tools? sry had to say tht ) and have a good firewall your in ALMOST as good of shape as if you were using linux but  the thing is(though you should have all of these despite the price) they are EXPENSIVE(except for firefox/mozilla and anti spyware programs such as ad-aware se and spyware search and destroy)

i mean Nortan anti virus is how-much?

the only halfway decent free firewall (that ive found) is zonealarm and its still a pain in the ass....(unless of course you go for zone-alarm PRO only how many dollars extra)

and the newest version of xp is freaking expensive(not to mention the amount of memorey it takes up nor my various other quibbles with it)

im just sixteen i cant afford all that crap(i spend all the time during which i should be loooking for a job playing games (like Planeshift:D)
 
i run sytems with linux and with windows(the later only because i game so much) and i personally have found windows lacking a great deal in the security department...unless that is you actually have money in your wallet :rolleyes:

sorry if im ranting again

regards

-Tarach

[Foresteer]

one word... kerio beat norton hands down.. and just get an IP blackholer.. windows or not they cant even see you IP.. much less connect to it and if they cant connect then they cant do squat.. natively without tools though windows is a horrible excuse when it come to security.. but it can be locked down VERY tightwith the right tools and know how (blackholer stops IP scans from seeing you.. you are a \"black hole\" on the inernet.. pings go in and never come out and kerio keeps a list of ALL connections even the sites you go to! and whenever your browser comes up or a pop up it asks if you wan to allow block or ban from connecting forever  so its a good 1-2 ounch on security)

zone alarm is kiddy crap i took me a re-format to finaly get it off my system for good XD

security can be free and easy.. like all web hunting you have to invest time (finding the good free stuff) instead of money for the free stuff

EDIT: i will grant most linux users (as most of them are younger it seems) Windows is like the fighting game genre.. if you wherent there at the start then its hard to become \"l33t\" at it i have been fiddling about with microsoft since 3.1 and dos 5.2.. so for somebody without all the experience many of the errors seem insurmountable and changing OS seems like the only way.. but to you that error which is undefeatable is to the older windows users old hat.. so just like in fighting games you gotta pick up the oldest one you can find and practice from there (seriously soul caliber owned me until i played street fighter for a few years.. then i breezed through it XD ) however learning and owning multiple OSs is a good thing... just dont get to caught up in one over the other.. windows is the all around.. good at everything.. though not as good at certian things as other OS (linux has windows beat at the hardcore coding tools.. MAC has the graphics tools.. windows has stuff almost as good, but still no contest)

[Kwip]

Ack! I can\'t believe I forgot the most important rules of online conduct in a mutliplatform environment, never mention Windows, or Microsoft, in the same sentence/paragraph/post/thread as Linux XD

[Foresteer]

Originally posted by Kwip
Ack! I can\'t believe I forgot the most important rules of online conduct in a mutliplatform environment, never mention Windows, or Microsoft, in the same sentence/paragraph/post/thread as Linux XD

Hell its usualy not safe to mention them on the same forum.. PS forums being the only exception to the rule so far (and the only forum where the thread wound itself down in a educational civil way where people learned something.. normaly windows v. lnux ends in both parties going \"w3 r0xx0rz j00 suck0rz!!\" and leaving more fanatical then before)

[Kaseijin]

which is better...depends who you are.

i like linux....it\'s no gaming machine....but for programming..exploring and expanding knowledge of how computer works it\'s great

my dad uses his comp for AutoCad.... linux fails to provide any decent alternative...and installing linux just run wine to run AutoCad is just bizzare and stupid....so ofcourse i am going to advise my dad to stay with windows...

my mum uses comp mostly for internet....and linux would be just a bit too confusing...cause it offers too many options...so i advise her to stick to windows

bottom line is if you are a computer enthusisast....get linux....if you are a computer user...who is not sure what a driver is ...and don\'t know what compiling is...what libraries are......and frankly don\'t want to know cause you have more important stuff in your life....then stick to windows.

i like linux ....but i am a bit annoyed by religousness of its users...they are fanatical.... a lot of them iconize Linus.... which is just weird.  If some tells me \"I\'ve been with Windows for 10 years and i am happy\"...i would say \"I am glad\"... i wouldn\'t scream \"How can you say that ...windoze suck...get linux\" If the system satsfies the users needs then it is a good system.

Windowse is less secure cause of following things:
1. It gets attacked more, hackers when they discover a bug windwos will exploit it, while once they find a bug linux, will try to correct it... In they minds their are hurting Bill Gates (who pretty much doesn\'t give a rats ass about it), in reality they are making life difficult for a lot of common people.
2. Most of linux users know how to use linux properly...they know when to log on as root when not...how to organize software, cause most of linux users are computer enthusiasts and they care about this stuff. A lot of Windows users are computer illiterate..and use the system carelessly...if you gave those people to use linux...they would mess it up.
3. Open source does lend  itself to more frequent security updates... once again it\'s the users responsibility to stay current.