Forum Mentality

[Karyuu]

No reason at all? I highly doubt that. If you could please point me to an undeleted post that included \"flaming\" for no reason at all, I would appreciate it. Common (valid) reasons include frustration over seeing the same thread topic pop up a billion million times, PLing, and misunderstanding of the PlaneShift goal, among others. I think in such cases people have every right to give a bap on the head of the \"offender.\"

[Kiern]

To be serious for a moment...

Originally posted by Pestilence
If it\'s 10 to one it\'s no longer a discussion if the 1 is also a newbie.

I do have to agree with this, but I haven\'t seen any of it recently?  I remember this used to happen all the time to the point of being ridiculous (back with seperot and company), but haven\'t noticed anything too bad now (some guild threads seemed to be getting there, though).  Then again, I don\'t read many posts.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Karyuu
No reason at all? I highly doubt that. If you could please point me to an undeleted post that included \"flaming\" for no reason at all, I would appreciate it. Common (valid) reasons include frustration over seeing the same thread topic pop up a billion million times, PLing, and misunderstanding of the PlaneShift goal, among others. I think in such cases people have every right to give a bap on the head of the \"offender.\"

http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=18337&boardid=13&styleid=3&sid=940ea204c61f8bf2180ad3d0a3359209&page=3

[Karyuu]

I have different forum settings, so the link doesn\'t load as it would for you. Perhaps mention the specific post(s)? The thread seems to be a heated discussion, not a flamefest, to me.

[Pestilence]

hmm disagree with thaat. In that thread people keep saying \"stop whining becuase there is a wipe it\'s only a test\".

Now I don\'t mind that much if you think that but if the same people want a wipe becuase of \"cheaters\". It\'s clear they want the wipe for GAME reasons and not becuase it would interfere with the \"Test\".

People aren\'t listening to what the other says. It seems to be irrelevant. They just throw \"It\'s only a test\" around like they didn\'t just say they wanted a wipe becuase it\'s not fun without and it\'s a crime to think without one it could be fun aswell or it isn\'t needed for fun reasons..

[Karyuu]

I don\'t see how it\'s hypocritic. Getting rid of cheaters or bugged accounts is part of the testing phase of the game. They go hand in hand. Why is it so bad to want the wipe for both bug fixes and getting rid of those who have used exploits? Perhaps I have misunderstood?

[Pestilence]

The problem here is that it\'s

A. not cheating if it\'s only a test. I mean how can it be if it\'s not a game?

B. It\'s the job of testers to find exploits and see how far it is bugged.

C. For testing reasons it would only be better to have people at different levels as fast as you can so you know even sooner where the bugs are at the higher levels.

So why have people character wiped when it\'s obvious noone has even come near maxing things like sword or axe? The only reason I can think of is that it wouldn\'t be fair to the ones who played fair, but thats a game reason, not a testreason.

And if you say I want a wipe becuase \"game reason here\"

And someone else says I think it would only ruin the fun if you do.

You can\'t say \"you can\'t nag becuase it\'s a test\", becuase the wipe so far as I have heared has nothing to do with \"testing\"

Then you are just ignoring someone becuase you don\'t want to hear it and then there is no discussion.

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by Pestilence
The problem here is that it\'s

A. not cheating if it\'s only a test. I mean how can it be if it\'s not a game?

One cannot be blamed for finding an exploit, but one can be blamed for continued use of it. How many people do you honestly think use exploits for \"testing\" purposes once they are discovered and shared? It\'s utter nonsense. There is a whole page of the PlaneShift website dedicated to cheating; defining, explaining, warning. It\'s ridiculous to say that there are no such things as cheats within a game of testing stage. The crystal-hunting fiasco in MB is enough proof that it exists and must be taken care of.

B. It\'s the job of testers to find exploits and see how far it is bugged.

And once an exploit is made known to the devs, is it the job of the \"testers\" to continue using it? Exploits are bugs - accounts that use exploits are bugged, and characters that progress using exploited resources are useless for testing purposes (referring to using exploits to test maxes and high numbers) because exploits often change things that shouldn\'t have been changed, or gained, normally. It is the normal process of progression that is important.

C. For testing reasons it would only be better to have people at different levels as fast as you can so you know even sooner where the bugs are at the higher levels.

And exploits are the way to approach this? I can\'t believe you think that this is a valid point. I\'m not even going to touch this.

So why have people character wiped when it\'s obvious noone has even come near maxing things like sword or axe?

And you know this personally and with 100% certainty that no one tested the maxing of all skills? Please.

You can\'t say \"you can\'t nag becuase it\'s a test\", becuase the wipe so far as I have heared has nothing to do with \"testing\"

You obviously have not read a single post about the wipe from members of the dev team.

Then you are just ignoring someone becuase you don\'t want to hear it and then there is no discussion.

What I am noticing so far is ignorance on your part, Pestilence. Pardon me for being blunt.

[Seytra]

@ Pestilence: Yes, this sort of thing is happening often in the more heated discussions. However, it most definitely is not always newbies being smashed like that. In fact, newbies are quite often doing the exact same thing. Someone may be a newbie to this board, but they most likely will have been on other boards before.

What I would not have believed but have witnessed on that thread is that zanzibar indeed is targetedly bashing the DC, while his very own behaviour is even worse. PL IMNSHO is not nearly as bad as cheating or exploiting bugs.

Anyway, back on topic: I agree that there is a tendency to ignore points that one doesn\'t agree with, which leads to endless revulsions of them being stated and re-stated and ignored instead of countered, unlike a real discussion.

As for the wipe: I have seen so many people massively and methodically exploit bugs and flaws, even long-time players, it\'s just sad and distressing.

Yes, it is only a test, and RPers like myself can easily get distracted from this fact because RP is mainly independant from the feature state of the game. However, the fact remains that cheating / exploiting is 1) clearly prohibited on the main site and 2) indecent behaviour. Whether it does harm ATM or not from a technical POV is totally besides the point. What does matter is that, as has been stated on the wipe thread somewhere, a condoning of this behaviour will send out the message \"Come to PS for all your cheating / PL needs!\". Therefore, even if technically it doesn\'t really matter, it does matter psychologically. It will, by word of mouth, spread, and serious RPers who might have heard the official statement about PS being about RP will be disappointed and not give PS a try because what they see is yet another MMO\"RP\"G that claims to be about RP but in reality couldn\'t care less. Heck, ocasionally it evel looks that way to me.

Thus, if we do not strictly enforce decent behaviour, then this will attract the wrong playerbase. And it is this playerbase that will shape the future development of PS. In two ways, actually:

1) The wishlist. While seemingly unimportant, it is a mirror of the playerbase, and what it\'s intentions are. Even if the wishes are not implemented as wished for, the general direction the wishlist moves in most certainly will, over time, influence the devs in their decisionmaking. Even if Talad remains serious about RP, he can only do so much if the remaining devs are slowly being dragged away from that. And it is easy to change peoples minds if they have no really set opinion on things. And it is my impression that many devs don\'t have one about the RP focus of PS.

2) The future devs will be recruited mostly from the playerbase. If we have a PLing and cheating playerbase, then we will get devs like that in the end. And in this case, PS will be a failed attempt.

[Pestilence]

What I am noticing so far is ignorance on your part, Pestilence. Pardon me for being blunt.

hmmm calling names now are we? Or atleast trying to hit where it hurts?

Just becuase I don\'t agree with you I am ignorant?

I don\'t feel this wipe is done for testing reasons no. Does this make me ignorant? I think not It\'s my opinion. One obviously you can\'t respect.

I have read the posts from the devs. I still feel it\'s not one done for testing reasons. And as I said I don\'t mind it not being for testing reasons. Just admit it if it is and don\'t pretent it\'s testing reasons.

There is a whole page of the PlaneShift website dedicated to cheating; defining, explaining, warning.

Indeed rules to make the game fun. Or are you saying they just put those up for a test?

because exploits often change things that shouldn\'t have been changed, or gained, normally. It is the normal process of progression that is important.

hmm and the devs aren\'t smart enough to see the difference? And there aren\'t enough people left to see if their development is right? Anyhow what things changed anyhow? Only thing I have seen people use that changed thing were the axes and those were legit. The rest was only money. Thats faster but nothing changed to \"change things that shouldn\'t \"

And exploits are the way to approach this?

No ofcourse not, but if it\'s really just a test it shouldn\'t matter enough for a wipe either. As I said the only thing gained is money. And the falchions gotten from the rats are nothing compared to the axes you could get legit.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Pestilence
No ofcourse not, but if it\'s really just a test it shouldn\'t matter enough for a wipe either. As I said the only thing gained is money. And the falchions gotten from the rats are nothing compared to the axes you could get legit.

Well, I have neither a gold falchion nor an uber axe. Well, obviously not, because I do not cheat / exploit. However, occasionally I can\'t help but wonder how some things are classified as \"legit\".

[Pestilence]

It\'s legit if you checked with a GM if it is and he says it is. That\'s what I did this time anyhow. According to the GM I spoke with the devs put the axedropping in intentionally. As to the rats being a bug.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Pestilence
It\'s legit if you checked with a GM if it is and he says it is. That\'s what I did this time anyhow. According to the GM I spoke with the devs put the axedropping in intentionally. As to the rats being a bug.

Alright, if it is indeed intentional, then if you got the drop by legit means, the only thing left to wonder is to why it is implemented intentionally. I am inclined to think that it was for very closed testing (and thus the intention was not to have common players have it, making it an exploit), but then again I may be wrong.

[Pestilence]

hmmm well could be but the axes are still being dropped as far as I know. So it\'s been days while the rats only lasted a few hours. They did change the droprate on special axes I hear so perhaps that part was a bug but not the dropping itself I think.

Anyhow think the GM would have told me aswell if I wasn\'t intended to have the axes

[Easton]

*takes a deep breath*

to meriner and seytra: i believe that anything involving odd looting is indeed a bug. the only reason i think this i because it was said that the devs had a new looting engine and they would be testing it out, and for this reason, there would be another wipe. they said we would be getting uber items that we should not be getting. and therefore, to even out the playing field once again, they must wipe. whether i agree or not will not be stated. but i do believe that the looting is a bug... as, you would not expect to kill a simple merc and get loot worth 900 tria.

*inhales*

now.. back to what karyuu said about the thread thing:
i know phineas (my apologies if the name is spelled wrong) is somewhat of an exception in some people\'s eyes, but to me, his comments on my guild thread were grossly uncalled far. as i have never been in any form of argument with him at all. i do not have the link, but it is under the guild\'s thread \"Swords of Ghent return\".

let me know if you think that was uncalled.. i think it was.

-Easton Ghent