The Illarion Fallacy

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Seytra
I\'m not being elitist at all. I am just stating that not everyone is acceptable in PS. Not everyone\'s way to play MMORPGs fits here, so \"they are players, too\" doesn\'t quite cut it.

Like I said... you don\'t even realize what you\'re saying.

Originally posted by Seytra
No, it itn\'t. However, it is completely obvious that RPers will also become strong warriors.

That is objectively false.

It\'s ENTIRELY possible to power level without resorting to out of character communications!

By doing no communicating at all, I presume?

You seem to presume many things.  Obviously, I consider at least some of your presumptions to be incorrect.

[zanzibar]

I agree that a player based economy is crucial to the developement of RP in planeshift.  Allowing a way to make money which is as profitable as \"hunting\" but requires no fighting will greatly add to the game.  Further, such jobs should be designed to be interdendant on one another.  Further, the need for powerful warriors should be worked into the economy albiet sparingly -- for instance, requiring the claw of an ulbernaught to make a really good shield.


Of course, these things have already been suggested......

[Neryam]

And back on topic..  :rolleyes:
I stilllike hereticalfalcon\'s idea best by far. If mastery is almost impossible to get, and gets even more impossible, why don\'t you guys just remove combat AND mastery of any skill and be done with it? Gosh..
Soon it will take 2000 PP to get to level 10 swords and then PS will pretty much become a chatroom.

This idea will prevent this, mastery of 10 skills all at the same time.

[Karii_Winterwalker]

Originally posted by Seytra
because PP are very hard to come by, and essentially swapped relevance with tria.
Due to that, the return to the trainer is less of a hassle than actually getting the required PP to increaso one skill.

This is simply not true. I frequently find myself with thousands of PP on which I have not the tria to spend. The only reprieve in this is finding the occasional jewel encrusted longsword of ways that will fetch well over 50,000 tria from a vendor.

However, because it is easier to gain overall power by concurrently increasing multiple skills (i.e., weapon and armor) instead of pushing one first and then the other, the effect is that I\'m at about the same level in all skills I care about.

I believe that was his point. You don\'t care about all of those skills exactly equally, do you?

Originially posted by Seytra
I\'m not being elitist at all. I am just stating that not everyone is acceptable in PS. Not everyone\'s way to play MMORPGs fits here, so \"they are players, too\" doesn\'t quite cut it.

I am forced to agree. Zanzibar, it has been clearly stated that the developers\' vision for this game does not include that sort of behavior, and in fact specifically excludes it. Therefore, that sort of behavior is \"not wanted here.\" Such people are not playing the game the way that it was meant to be played.

Originally posted by zanzibar

Originally posted by Seytra
No, it itn\'t. However, it is completely obvious that RPers will also become strong warriors.

That is objectively false.

I\'m afraid it isn\'t. True roleplaying does not simply use Planeshift as a vaguely in-character chat room. There are a number of roleplayers (myself formerly among them, before I restarted to dispel that obnoxious fixed-mana bug that would have prevented me from becoming a decent Blue mage, hardly acceptable for Lady Winter) whose characters have also become quite powerful. In the time since I generated a new character, I have made quite some progress, despite spending most of the past few days in the tavern or in the plaza.

Originally posted by zanzibar
It\'s ENTIRELY possible to power level without resorting to out of character communications!

Indeed it is. Taken at its most literal, \"power-leveling\" lies entirely within the scope of roleplaying, assuming that one\'s character is the type to have the drive necessary for that. I am not sure how Seytra is getting the impression that it isn\'t so.

Originally posted by hereticalfaction
Our charachters are the heroic elite of the fantasy world they occupy.

This is not unrealistic. Take the word \"roleplay\" at its most literal, and what do you have?

No, your right... \"roleplaying\" to most people means typing cybernetic renfaire babble into a chat client. And if there are no game mandated interdependancies between charachters, this is all roleplaying can be.

I could choose to be insulted by this, but that would be foolish. I know that anyone saying this, in all likelihood, simply needs more inspiration for imagination, and is most probably more \"grounded,\" as it were, than one like me. But let\'s do avoid that lengthy chat, shall we? That really is not the topic of discussion, here.

No, but as an editorial decision the developers of this game have decided that a \"healthy in-game economy\" is one of their central goals. Economy of any type imlpies an imbalance of dissimmillar resources between differrent persons groups or localities, otherwise trade is pointless. IMO, PS just like all other games I have tried is falling into the trap of having a modern monetised economy where what stands for money is backed with perfect confidence. Making/gathering stuff and selling it for cash, cash which is immune to inflation default, counterfeit, or for now theft or loss of any kind is a silly way to engender an active economy.

This is true, to a degree. However, much as there are vertical mergers that result in divisions of a single company operating in all stages of production, it is possible for a single person to collect and/or produce resources for any given task, rather than limiting him/herself to mass-producing things that he/she does not need. Now, of course, if said mass-production was useful to others who did not have that skill, this would be plausible (indeed preferable for society and the economy as a whole, as we modernites well know). But it quite simply is not. In planeshift, mostly, if one needs ore, one learns to mine. Therein lies the problem, perhaps? But there are far too many disparate skills to classify and diversify properly. I doubt that everyone will go so far as to craft their own armor and weapons, and so, as the game progresses, the problem may well fix itself.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker
Such people are not playing the game the way that it was meant to be played.

There will always be people like that.  People make the claim that the powerlevellers will come, get fed up, and leave.  Well hey, I\'m still here!

Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker

Originally posted by zanzibar
It\'s ENTIRELY possible to power level without resorting to out of character communications!

Indeed it is. Taken at its most literal, \"power-leveling\" lies entirely within the scope of roleplaying, assuming that one\'s character is the type to have the drive necessary for that. I am not sure how Seytra is getting the impression that it isn\'t so.

Holy smokes!  A regular on this board agreed with something I said!  It\'s incredible!

/me looks around nervously

Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker
In planeshift, mostly, if one needs ore, one learns to mine.

I don\'t.  When I\'ve needed ore, I asked around if anyone has some, then I /shouted to say that I\'ll buy some if someone would be bothered to gather it.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker
This is simply not true. I frequently find myself with thousands of PP on which I have not the tria to spend. The only reprieve in this is finding the occasional jewel encrusted longsword of ways that will fetch well over 50,000 tria from a vendor.

This used to be the case before the wipe, but since then I have, without one single extraordinary weapon drop or gift, by far more tria than PP. In fact, money is not an issue anymore, PP are. Obviously I\'m doing it wrong if you have thousands of excessive PP even now.

Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker
Indeed it is. Taken at its most literal, \"power-leveling\" lies entirely within the scope of roleplaying, assuming that one\'s character is the type to have the drive necessary for that. I am not sure how Seytra is getting the impression that it isn\'t so.

Assuming that the char is the type, this is the key. Only very few chars would realistically be the type to do so, and also even these cannot keep slaying without doing anything else in between. Maybe our definitions of PL differ, which has been the case on these boards more than once. To me, PL means not a char that is played well and spends a lot of time honing their skills of choice.
In fact PL is when a player does not care about a char, and thus works the game mechanics to attain the skills that are most useful instead of realistic. A PL would, given it would provide benefits, train lawn-mowing, even if his goal is maxing axe skill.
A properly played char would almost never do that. As my statement about RPers becoming powerful implies, I acknowledge the existence of properly RP\'d yet mostly levelling chars.

Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker
I believe that was his point. You don\'t care about all of those skills exactly equally, do you?

I\'m not exactly sure about that, actually. As I said, it is even realistic to train both weapon and armor skill concurrently, and in fact I at least care about both somewhat equally.

Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker

Originally posted by hereticalfaction
Our charachters are the heroic elite of the fantasy world they occupy.

This is not unrealistic. Take the word \"roleplay\" at its most literal, and what do you have?

In an MMORPG, it is a lot less realistic than in PnP RPGs. Traditionally, you have only very very few \"heros\" IRL, which PnP RPGs can simulate perfectly, due to the small playerbase per virtual world (i.e., number of players per GM). In an MMORPG, most definitely not even close to everyone is / can be a hero. The hero population exceeds the normal population in MMORPGs, and thus the \"hero\" concept doesn\'t work there anymore. I\'m inclined to believe that neither the concept \"hero\" nor the word \"hero\" would even evolve in an environment like that.

Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker
But it quite simply is not. In planeshift, mostly, if one needs ore, one learns to mine. Therein lies the problem, perhaps? But there are far too many disparate skills to classify and diversify properly. I doubt that everyone will go so far as to craft their own armor and weapons, and so, as the game progresses, the problem may well fix itself.

Indeed. If you RP properly, there is almost no way a char will master all skills. You may eventually end up using your skills as workalike for some additional ones, but most master mages won\'t go down into the caverns to learn mining. The workalike may be using golems or melting spells to extract ore (which won\'t be \"mining\" skill), but a rockpick is unlikely.

Originally posted by zanzibar

Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker
Such people are not playing the game the way that it was meant to be played.

There will always be people like that. People make the claim that the powerlevellers will come, get fed up, and leave. Well hey, I\'m still here!

Yes, there will always be abusers like you (thanks for publicly stating that you knowingly and willfully abuse PS). This does still not mean that we need to simply accept their presence. It means that we must take measures to minimize their number.

Concerning your remaining statements:

Originally posted by zanzibar
Like I said... you don\'t even realize what you\'re saying.

That is objectively false.

You seem to presume many things. Obviously, I consider at least some of your presumptions to be incorrect.

As usual, you provide absolutely nothing. All you do is claim things without providing any support. It would be nice if you, for once, would actually present facts or at least something that might be classified as reasoning to back up your statements. But obviously that would not allow you to easily twist your statements to be able to wiggle out of anything, as you have done repeatedly in other threads, so you obviously have no interest in a proper discussion. Thus, all you are doing is wasting everyone\'s time.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Seytra
This used to be the case before the wipe, but since then I have, without one single extraordinary weapon drop or gift, by far more tria than PP. In fact, money is not an issue anymore, PP are. Obviously I\'m doing it wrong if you have thousands of excessive PP even now.

I also have over 2,000 unused PP points, and only around 20,000 trias in my inventory.  I guess the \"problem\" is that me, a well known power leveller, spends too much time role playing and helping others out and I spend too little time and money on my own stats.  Go figure.

If I spent all my money on myself, then I would be out of progression points.  When you can kill trepors for 30 pp each though....


On the topic of heroes, I don\'t see us as heroes.  Many of us are well known due to being guild leaders or some such, but being well known or powerful doesn\'t qualify as being a hero.  To have heroes, we would need some sort of \"problem\" (read:  some sort of plotline) which only a few individuals could \"solve\" (read:  complete).  I\'m not talking about quests, I\'m talking about something bigger.

Originally posted by Seytra
If you RP properly, there is almost no way a char will master all skills. You may eventually end up using your skills as workalike for some additional ones, but most master mages won\'t go down into the caverns to learn mining. The workalike may be using golems or melting spells to extract ore (which won\'t be \"mining\" skill), but a rockpick is unlikely.

Making it so that you can only \"master\" a finite number of skills is realistic, as long as it isn\'t static -- that is, you can \"forget\" and \"loose practice\" in skills which go unused or ignored, or are labelled as not a priority, or some other excuse to make room for another skill.

Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker
Such people are not playing the game the way that it was meant to be played.

Originally posted by zanzibar
There will always be people like that. People make the claim that the powerlevellers will come, get fed up, and leave. Well hey, I\'m still here!

Originally posted by Seytra
Yes, there will always be abusers like you (thanks for publicly stating that you knowingly and willfully abuse PS). This does still not mean that we need to simply accept their presence. It means that we must take measures to minimize their number.

Ok.... you\'re still making an assumption which I simply cannot let fly.  You claim that I\'m \"abusing\" the game because I\'m \"powerlevelling\".  Now, I meet the definition of \"powerlevelling\" - I have level 25 in daggers and level 37 in light armour, and my body stats are 150/150/130.  However, do I abuse the game?  No.  I help make it fun for others.  I RP.  I bicker with others more than I should, which I intend to change, but I do it in a role-playing context.  I help out people who are new, serving as a guide and trainer.  I\'ve been in leadership or semi-leadership positions in three different guilds, all in a RP context.  So am I a powerleveller?  Sure.  But I\'m not abusing the game, and I do role-play.

Originally posted by Seytra
Concerning your remaining statements:

Originally posted by zanzibar
Like I said... you don\'t even realize what you\'re saying.

That is objectively false.

You seem to presume many things. Obviously, I consider at least some of your presumptions to be incorrect.

As usual, you provide absolutely nothing. All you do is claim things without providing any support. It would be nice if you, for once, would actually present facts or at least something that might be classified as reasoning to back up your statements. But obviously that would not allow you to easily twist your statements to be able to wiggle out of anything, as you have done repeatedly in other threads, so you obviously have no interest in a proper discussion. Thus, all you are doing is wasting everyone\'s time.

Ah, you\'re one of those! :-D  I do not wiggle, twist, dance, evade, or engage in any other such contortion in this particular context.  If you don\'t like what I have to say, disagree with it.  Disprove it if you can!  But don\'t act like I\'m not saying anything.  You\'re accusing me of not putting substance into my posts.  This is not the first time you\'ve made that accusation.  However, your accusations -- your insults -- are false.  Want proof?  Read my posts.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by zanzibar
Ah, you\'re one of those! :-D  I do not wiggle, twist, dance, evade, or engage in any other such contortion in this particular context.

Not in this particular context, indeed. I didn\'t say you did, I said that it was preparation to do so.

Originally posted by zanzibar
If you don\'t like what I have to say, disagree with it.  Disprove it if you can!  But don\'t act like I\'m not saying anything. You\'re accusing me of not putting substance into my posts.  This is not the first time you\'ve made that accusation.  However, your accusations -- your insults -- are false.  Want proof?  Read my posts.

I expect the proof and reasoning to be contained in the exact post and context that the comment is being made in. Saying \"somewhere in my posts is the reasoning\" is just as much of a cop-out as can be.
The post I took these quotes from contained solely these, so neither do I need to re-read your posts, nor are my accusations false in any way.
Furthermore, it is not my duty to disprove any random statement of \"this isn\'t true\". Instead, it is your duty to prove that your claim of \"this is not true\" is correct.
You know perfectly well that this is the only way it can work, because otherwise you would, with the minimal effort of posting a line like \"This is obviously wrong\", force me to waste tremendous amounts of time writing a post that explains every single detail of my thinkings and provides and counters every single concievable counter-argument. I\'m almost inclined to assume that exactly this is your intent.

Originally posted by zanzibar
On the topic of heroes, I don\'t see us as heroes. Many of us are well known due to being guild leaders or some such, but being well known or powerful doesn\'t qualify as being a hero. To have heroes, we would need some sort of \"problem\" (read: some sort of plotline) which only a few individuals could \"solve\" (read: complete). I\'m not talking about quests, I\'m talking about something bigger.

Indeed. The usual concept of \"hero\", which basically requires only a few difficult quests, is unworkable here, since these quests are more or less everyday work. However, attaining this \"something bigger\" will surely be a problem, because everyoune must have the same chances to complete it if they would qualify, and everyone needs to be able to reach the qualification. Thus, it\'s very hard to do such a thing and keep it sufficiently unique to justify the title \"hero\".

Originally posted by zanzibar
Ok.... you\'re still making an assumption which I simply cannot let fly. You claim that I\'m \"abusing\" the game because I\'m \"powerlevelling\". Now, I meet the definition of \"powerlevelling\" - I have level 25 in daggers and level 37 in light armour, and my body stats are 150/150/130. However, do I abuse the game? No. I help make it fun for others. I RP. I bicker with others more than I should, which I intend to change, but I do it in a role-playing context. I help out people who are new, serving as a guide and trainer. I\'ve been in leadership or semi-leadership positions in three different guilds, all in a RP context. So am I a powerleveller? Sure. But I\'m not abusing the game, and I do role-play.

Originally posted by zanzibar
I also have over 2,000 unused PP points, and only around 20,000 trias in my inventory. I guess the \"problem\" is that me, a well known power leveller, spends too much time role playing and helping others out and I spend too little time and money on my own stats. Go figure.

Maybe our definitions of \"roleplay\" differ, maybe the way you are helping others is far from what is considered roleplay.
Handing out swords that do 100 damage to newbies surely is not RP. It\'s completely unrealistic, to say the least. What you are doing is aid others in powerlevelling, nothing else. This is even worse than powerlevelling by yourself only, because you create an entire new generation of powerlevellers.

As for the roleplay and bickering in an RP context you claim to be doing: even in RP there are lines that one must not cross. Anything beyond that requires explicit mutual agreement by all players involved. Thus, if such agreement is not reached, it isn\'t RP anymore, but either griefing or OOC rudeness, both of which are not acceptable. It is my impression that at least the agreement part has been lacking, but if you intend to reduce this in general, then this problem may go away as a side-effect.

[odd2k]

What I think.. It\'s perfectly ok for a person to powerlevel as long as it does not detract form the game experience for any other characters, especially roleplayers. From what I\'ve read of zanzibar\'s posts, he seems like one of the good guys, a powerleveler who, if he doesnt roleplay, at least doesnt ruin the game for others. I don\'t see why this would be a problem.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by odd2k
What I think.. It\'s perfectly ok for a person to powerlevel as long as it does not detract form the game experience for any other characters, especially roleplayers. From what I\'ve read of zanzibar\'s posts, he seems like one of the good guys, a powerleveler who, if he doesnt roleplay, at least doesnt ruin the game for others. I don\'t see why this would be a problem.

Yeah, well a lot of the regulars hate me, therefore I must be doing something wrong.  That\'s how this place works.


\"Maybe our definitions of \"roleplay\" differ, maybe the way you are helping others is far from what is considered roleplay.
Handing out swords that do 100 damage to newbies surely is not RP. It\'s completely unrealistic, to say the least. What you are doing is aid others in powerlevelling, nothing else. This is even worse than powerlevelling by yourself only, because you create an entire new generation of powerlevellers.\"


You don\'t know everything my character does, and I don\'t care enough to write up a report to you.



\"As for the roleplay and bickering in an RP context you claim to be doing: even in RP there are lines that one must not cross. Anything beyond that requires explicit mutual agreement by all players involved. Thus, if such agreement is not reached, it isn\'t RP anymore, but either griefing or OOC rudeness, both of which are not acceptable. It is my impression that at least the agreement part has been lacking, but if you intend to reduce this in general, then this problem may go away as a side-effect.\"


Role play necessitates being forced into situations you aren\'t expecting.  Someone picks your pocket.  You fall through a trap door.  You must defend the city from an invasion.  And so on.  But hey, what the frack do I know?  I\'m just a freaking powerleveller.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by zanzibar
Role play necessitates being forced into situations you aren\'t expecting.  Someone picks your pocket.  You fall through a trap door.  You must defend the city from an invasion.  And so on.  But hey, what the frack do I know?  I\'m just a freaking powerleveller.

And you think that this is possible without mutual agreement even in a PnP RPG? Well, it isn\'t. Indeed the GM doesn\'t ask \"I\'ll trap you now, are you OK with that?\". However, the GM gets feedback from the players, and this will be quite clear if there is no agreement. Also, a GM who doesn\'t care about this agreement, will quickly find the room empty. This is the same reason why people don\'t like your \"roleplay\": it doesn\'t respect common decency and is very self-centered.
Furthermore, a great many roleplayers simply cannot cope with massively negative actions towards their chars. You are trying to force that on everyone by saying \"things like this just happen\", which would be very very bad. Yes, they do happen, but without restricting what happens to what the other player can deal with while still enjoying to play, the game will not be enjoyable for most people. Those who remain will be those who try to evade getting into such situations by merely powerlevelling so that they don\'t run the risk of ever being on the victim side.

I would be very interested in seeing how much of being victim and being forced into unpleasant situations you can cope with, and if your powerlevelling isn\'t just trying to prevent this from ever happening to yourself, while clearly you enjoy dealing it to others.

BTW, from what I have observed of your involvement in guild wars, this is another thing in which you completely ignore decency, not only IC, but also OOC. You have been repeatedly violating agreed upon neutral zones, and while this might be realistic for whatever character you think to have, it is not acceptable OOCly. And since we RP for the player\'s enjoymant, not the char\'s, what happens OOC does matter, even if only IC actions are concerned.

Originally posted by zanzibar

Originally posted by odd2k
What I think.. It\'s perfectly ok for a person to powerlevel as long as it does not detract form the game experience for any other characters, especially roleplayers. From what I\'ve read of zanzibar\'s posts, he seems like one of the good guys, a powerleveler who, if he doesnt roleplay, at least doesnt ruin the game for others. I don\'t see why this would be a problem.

Yeah, well a lot of the regulars hate me, therefore I must be doing something wrong. That\'s how this place works.

Actually, it\'s the other way around: you are doing a lot of things wrong, which is why you are not accepted by the community.
I don\'t know what your \"char\" is doing all day long, but
- dropping items in the plaza
- handing powerful items to random newbies
- aiding the circumvention of the training system by \"serving as trainer\" (i.e. letting others train weapon skills without fighting back, letting others train armor skill by attacking with low skill / low power weapons, etc.)
is what you seem to be doing a lot, and none of it is acceptable. So whatever else your char does, it doesn\'t matter since you are doing so many bad things already.

[zanzibar]

Seytra, I\'m not talking about stuff without mutual agreement. I\'m saying that certain activities should be made more risky.  If you travel alone on a road outside the city, you run the risk of being attacked by bandits.  If you enter a dungeon or abandoned castle, you run the risk of falling into a trap.  Stuff like that.  Right now, you can\'t really get into harms way unless you really really try - most creatures don\'t attack unless attacked, or if you\'re running close to them, and there is no open PvP anywhere - which makes evil guilds somewhat pointless.  It also makes guilds like the protectors and the deffenders pointless too, because there\'s no one to protect people from.


Have you ever played Daggerfall?  It\'s the only advanced RPG computer game I\'ve really played which I can say mirrors the planeshift experience, minus the mutli-player aspect of it.  In one quest, the mages guild sent me on a mission where I had to go into an abandoned fortress to kill a rogue wizard.  I eventually did find the wizard, but I had no idea what I was getting into.  The map was randomly generated, and I managed to fall not one but several trap doors.  I survived the falls, but was hopelessly lost.  It was literally days of playing to find my way back to the top.  Through it all, I was fighting my way ou, walking in circles, and finding myself in areas of the lower levels which were just weird.  There was a temple, an underground lake, various courtrooms, all arranged via a map generator.  I got out eventually.  Was it frustrating?  At times.  Did I expect it?  I knew it was possible, but I didn\'t expect to have my character in there for so long.  It was fun though!  And there really isn\'t a parallel in planeshift.  Ulbers can kill you if you\'re foolish enough to attack one.  Rats used to be dangerous when there would be 6 or 7 in one place which would all gang up on you.  I\'ve gotten lost in the sewers, but have always been able to find my way out.  The Ulbernaughts attacked the Plaza once, but very few people could actually do anything to stop them, and it was a rare event anyway.  I just think that what makes a game interesting is the unexpected, the unwelcomed, even the unpleasant.

Isn\'t an RPG about overcoming obstacles?  Not through strength of arms, but through intellect and cleverness as well?


Anyway, as far as the guild war with the dragon council -- which was a long time ago -- yeah, I broke the rules of engagement.  I was very angry at them for a variety of reasons, and I felt that they were cheating and exploiting the safe zones.  Breaking the rules of engagement in a guild war is rude, but it was not in violation of planeshift rules.  A guild can always opt out of a guildwar, and they can always choose not to engage in one.  Further, as soon as I started literalling the plaza with the blood of the wicked -- err, as soon as I started breaking the rules, half a dozen dragon council members with max out stats came in and killed me, then started spawning me when I was in the death realm.  Problem \"solved\", as it were.



\"aiding the circumvention of the training system by \"serving as trainer\" (i.e. letting others train weapon skills without fighting back, letting others train armor skill by attacking with low skill / low power weapons, etc.) \"


How long has it been since you played?  You don\'t get experience from PvP anymore.  You can attack and dodge someone as long as you like, but nothing will come from it.  You can only level up swords/daggers/axe/melee/magic from attacking NPCs, and you can only level up light armour by deffending from NPCs.

By \"Trainer\", I meant I showed people how to get around, how to control their character, how to use the various ways, what works in the game and what doesn\'t, and yes -- how to behave in combat.  I show people the shortcuts do drink potions and do various other useful things like how to pick up invisible objects using the /target_context command etcetera.  On rare occassions, I\'ve taken individuals to the trepors in the arena where I would get them down to 2% then let the other guy kill it for the progression points.  And of course there\'s telling tall tales and warning about the dangers of ulbernaughts.

Seytra, I appreciate that you\'ve been playing this game longer than I have, but you\'re an expert on planeshift.  You aren\'t an expert on me.