Wasn't Toda a male Enki before?

[Karyuu]

I haven\'t talked with Toda recently so I can\'t discuss her in particular, but there is no reason for a female fighter (aggressive), for example, to talk like a male priest (gentle). Not all females sound feminine, or are immediately pointed out as female (I\'ve been referred to as \"he\" too many times to count), and not all males immediately make one think that they are without-a-doubt-don\'t-even-consider-anything-else male.

[r.guppy]

Just for fun goggled Toda found this...

 Josei Toda, the organization\'s second president, was born on February 11, 1900, in Ishikawa Prefecture, and shortly thereafter moved to Atsuta village in Hokkaido, where he spent his childhood. Like Mr. Makiguchi, he worked his way through school, became a school teacher, and then, at the age of 20, moved to Tokyo.

 So under name rules change it grins [Joke]

[Stephen McNaire]

Originally posted by Karyuu
I haven\'t talked with Toda recently so I can\'t discuss her in particular, but there is no reason for a female fighter (aggressive), for example, to talk like a male priest (gentle).

Nope, none at all. But a male fighter and a female fighter will talk differently, as will a male priest and a female priest. But each person does talk differently, so there\'s alot of room for leeway I\'ll grant you that. But most do have distinct gender sounding speech and when text of spoken word is the only way you have to set a mood and develop a character (And in a short paragraph at that) you kinda have to skirt the extremes :).
Just so long as you aren\'t advocating girls that talk like boys Karyuu I have nothing to really argue, just gripe about:p.

[Pestilence]

LOL I knew I knew that name from somewhere  

Anyhow ofcourse not all females sound the same, but there simply are differences between men and females. It\'s not that all men are more macho then all females but it overal there are definately more males then women acting macho.

How male and female persons act in a group for example. Just look at a guy group an a girl group. Even if you wouldn\'t see it you would know the difference. It\'s not always easy to point out but it\'s scientificly proven we have different brains and they work differently.

So to say there are no differences and you shouldn\'t look at that this influences how one acts then I think you are going way overboard with the political correctness of the game and has little to do with realiy

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Karyuu
And you\'re an expert on female dwarf behavior..? Should they all go \"Tee hee\" and talk about clothes and shiny trinkets? I can\'t believe anyone is actually bringing this up.

Talk about clothes?  Yes!  Now, wearing them though.....

Originally posted by Stephen McNaire
Nope, none at all. But a male fighter and a female fighter will talk differently, as will a male priest and a female priest. But each person does talk differently, so there\'s alot of room for leeway I\'ll grant you that. But most do have distinct gender sounding speech and when text of spoken word is the only way you have to set a mood and develop a character (And in a short paragraph at that) you kinda have to skirt the extremes .
Just so long as you aren\'t advocating girls that talk like boys Karyuu I have nothing to really argue, just gripe about:p.

Ach.  Ach, with a clearing of the throat sound for the ch!  What is this?  The Victorian era?

Originally posted by Pestilence
LOL I knew I knew that name from somewhere  

Anyhow ofcourse not all females sound the same, but there simply are differences between men and females. It\'s not that all men are more macho then all females but it overal there are definately more males then women acting macho.

There are women who by ignorant standards act masculine.  There are men who by ignorant standards act feminine.  It happens, and it happens both ways, and it\'s ignorant and sexist to make such value judgements based on a person\'s sex.

Keep in mind that all these things are social conventions.  Their nature is social.  Biology might be a factor, but the way people interpret biological factors is entirely social.  That is the nature of interpretation!  That is the nature of agency!

[derwoodly]

Todays PC standards should not apply to in-game stereotypes.  I am not advocating the gigling girl stereotype for a fenki, but some sort of characture would be good to help us roleplay our own characters.

At this stage in development the lack of attention to the NPC text is understandable.  But, the topic is definately worth a serious discusion.  Maybe someone could post an example sentance and a rewrite to how you think it should sound.

[Lazaro]

You are reaching looking for exceptions...you will will always find exception to any statement.  Just in saying \"there are women who act masculine and men who act feminine,\" you have stated that you know this is not usually the case, thereby proving his statement with your exceptions.

Of course there are men and women who don\'t conform to the norms of male and female speech.   And just because there are norms does not mean that anyone is not free to act and speak in any manner they desire.  Also, the speech iteself is open to opinion as to the dgree of male and female sounding.

But to deny that there is a mainstream \"sound\" as to how males and females would approach a given situation is just being naive.  So feel free to continue to strengthen the opposite argument by providing a detailed list of those women that sound like men and vice versa.  

And for those that believe that a priest must be soft-spoken and kind, reference the Spanish Inquisition, for example.  Another exception that proves the rule.  

Generalizations can do harm when used to justify actions, but it does not mean that there is not truth in them.

[Pestilence]

/me nods at Lazaro

Very true indeed.

The exeptions that proof the rule.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by derwoodly
Todays PC standards should not apply to in-game stereotypes.  I am not advocating the gigling girl stereotype for a fenki, but some sort of characture would be good to help us roleplay our own characters.

At this stage in development the lack of attention to the NPC text is understandable.  But, the topic is definately worth a serious discusion.  Maybe someone could post an example sentance and a rewrite to how you think it should sound.

i) It\'s not about \"PC standards\".  It\'s about stereotypes.
ii) The real world is not made up of charactures.
iii)  Gender is social in nature, whatever biological influences there may be.

Originally posted by Lazaro
But to deny that there is a mainstream \"sound\" as to how males and females would approach a given situation is just being naive.

And for those that believe that a priest must be soft-spoken and kind, reference the Spanish Inquisition, for example.  Another exception that proves the rule.  

Generalizations can do harm when used to justify actions, but it does not mean that there is not truth in them.

i)  Generalizations may have some truth to them, but that doesn\'t make them true.
ii)  There are plenty of modern day priests that are not soft-spoken.  Evangelicalists for instance.
iii)  What is and what is not \"mainstream\" is a matter of personal opinion.

Originally posted by Pestilence
/me nods at Lazaro

Very true indeed.

The exeptions that proof the rule.

Oy, twice in one thread.

\"The expection that proves the rule\"

This saying is based on an archaec use of \"proof\" which meant \"test\".  So it\'s not to \"prove the rule correct\", it\'s \"to test the rule for correctness or falseness\".  In this case, it \"proves the rule false\".

[Pestilence]

No the fact there are exeptions to the rules proofs that in general the rule does exist.

Anyhow the rule isn\'t ?ll women act like this all men act like that. The rule is men in general are more macho and females in general are more feminine. The rule itself already says it ofcourse has some exeptions.

If you then say \"hey not ALL act like that\" only proves that the rule is valid.

Gender is social? If that were true why would so many cultures have the same red line in how men and women act?

And anyhow as I said it is scientificly proven the male and female brains are different from eachother and work quite differently so saying it is just social borders on ignorance.

Are male and females equals? Ofcourse but that doesn\'t mean they can not be different.

[derwoodly]

Originally posted by zanzibar

Originally posted by derwoodly
Todays PC standards should not apply to in-game stereotypes.  I am not advocating the gigling girl stereotype for a fenki, but some sort of characture would be good to help us roleplay our own characters.

...

i) It\'s not about \"PC standards\".  It\'s about stereotypes.
ii) The real world is not made up of charactures.
iii)  Gender is social in nature, whatever biological influences there may be.

Hummm, probably not going to work, but let me try again.

It was suggested that girl NPC\'s should behave \"girly\".  This was countered with in todays world this is not politically correct.  I countered with notion that the NPC\'s are not in todays world.  They are trapped in a fantasy world that in todays standards would be violent and cruel and sexist, so it is natural for the NPC\'s to behave in a more extream and colorfull manor.  

Now ,I did not say it that way, but those words were inbetween the lines of my text.  I would have thought that someone who is very good at reading inbetween the lines would have read that.

[Karyuu]

Can someone post a line or two of Toda\'s (nonspoiler of sorts) speech, for further discussions?

*edited to add* It\'s not the \"There are differences between male and female patterns of speech\" issue that bothers me, for that is indeed true. What irked me was the \"Toda doesn\'t sound female enough. Fix it\" deal.

[Darkmoon]

Toda Ombretis is supposed to be a MALE Enki.

[Karyuu]

Then something or someone messed up a little :P Since she\'s a prominant player in something or other with someone else now...

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Pestilence
No the fact there are exeptions to the rules proofs that in general the rule does exist.

No.  It proves that the rule is wrong, false, invalid, untrue, flawed, prone to failure, and unreliable.

The problem is that the saying comes from a time when \"prove\" had a different meaning.  Back then, it meant \"to test\", not \"to show as correct\".

Originally posted by Pestilence
Gender is social? If that were true why would so many cultures have the same red line in how men and women act?

Different cultures can have very different expectations for male and female roles and personalities.  Just look at our own culture over the last thousand years.  Heck, look at our own culture over the last 50 years!

Originally posted by Karyuu
Then something or someone messed up a little Since she\'s a prominant player in something or other with someone else now...

Well, it is possible that it\'s a homosexual relationship.  The quest is broken right now anyway. :|