A radical change to all forms of combat.

[Shardken]

I think the disappearing bug is largely a problem with lag. If you noticed when a player has a lagging client they will disappear and reappear where they were a few moments back and continue in the same direction. Basically the bug is that when they disappear the opponent looses his target and so can't hit. As you all should know from my post in the Hydlaa Message board *erhm* i am setting up a training hall to try and teach some good dueling, a good chance to test bugs too. I found in some maps this targetting bug was quite bad. The large courtyard in South hydlaa outside moren and nevis near the closed gate was really bad. The garden next to the temple near the gazebo was also bad, i'm guessing because of the grass. I finally settled with the current location in the courtyard behind boris, little lag, little targetting problems. We've had quite some fun.

The problem with limiting mobility is that it would make ulbernaut hunting impossible. And, who in their right mind would stay in one place near a thing like that? Real hunters don't stay near their prey, they make slashing passes only moving in to strike. For the NPCs what we need is a system that allows them to time their attacks to our charges. This way people hitting and running will have to think about the NPC they are attacking.

I can't see how the duelling system can be changed to allow players to duel like we normally fight NPCs. This is a really old topic. Basically the weapon system deal too much damage, especially with dual weapons. It's basically one hit kill with fastest/best-timed/luckiest fighter in. The skill serves as a means to boost the damage to the point you can one-hit K.O. Perhaps if we adjusted it so that two fighters of roughly the same skill should spend 80% of their hits being blocked. They should get the odd glancing blow in which deals a little damage and weakens the opponent. Eventually the opponent is weakened to the point that a clean finishing blow can be struck, which will be easier to do on a weakened opponent.
 

[zanzibar]

I think the disappearing bug is largely a problem with lag. (...)

Yes, but should lag be a factor in combat at all?  Is combat in PS going to be more like an arcade game or more like AD&D?

The problem with limiting mobility is that it would make ulbernaut hunting impossible. And, who in their right mind would stay in one place near a thing like that? Real hunters don't stay near their prey, they make slashing passes only moving in to strike. For the NPCs what we need is a system that allows them to time their attacks to our charges. This way people hitting and running will have to think about the NPC they are attacking.

Hit and running should be a skill then, one called dodging.  And ulbernaughts should be nearly impossible for a single character to kill!  You should need a party of 10 people, and you should expect 50% losses!

Actually, my character is perfectly capable of killing ulbernaughts without cheating by hitting and running.  Instead, I cheat by increasing my strength past 200 using might, then when I can't make it any bigger I attack.  I might drink some HP-increasing potions first, and I'll drink health potions during the fight (another action that might be considered cheating by some).  It's costly, but it works.

So ulbernaughts won't be impossible to kill, you'll just have to cheat a different way - using spells and potions to keep yourself alive, instead of exploiting the mechanics of the game.

I can't see how the duelling system can be changed to allow players to duel like we normally fight NPCs. This is a really old topic. Basically the weapon system deal too much damage, especially with dual weapons. It's basically one hit kill with fastest/best-timed/luckiest fighter in. The skill serves as a means to boost the damage to the point you can one-hit K.O. Perhaps if we adjusted it so that two fighters of roughly the same skill should spend 80% of their hits being blocked. They should get the odd glancing blow in which deals a little damage and weakens the opponent. Eventually the opponent is weakened to the point that a clean finishing blow can be struck, which will be easier to do on a weakened opponent. 

If it's luck of the draw, maybe people will think that much longer before engaging in a duel with someone who's as skilled as they are?

[Vengeance]

Why would drinking health potions during combat be cheating?

This is a good thread for a number of reasons, and I have several reactions:

1. The way attack auto-stops when you get out of range was never intended to be the permanent way fighting works.  It was a hack just after CB came out to get around people exploiting NPC stupidity by playing with ranges.  We need to fix that for both players and npcs.

2. I really like Zan's idea about how depending on your incident angle to the target, your shield has more effect or your weapon has more effect, or if your back is to the attacker, you are at a big disadvantage.  I want to talk to Talad about that and see about doing it.  I think it is a good improvement to our current rules.

3. Perhaps running out of (a wider) range in a duel should be an auto-yield.  It is certainly yielding behavior to run away.

- Vengeance

[zanzibar]

Why would drinking health potions during combat be cheating?

Because it's OOC.  Realistically, you can't drink dozens of potions using a hotkeyed shortcut while still dodging, parrying, and hitting your enemy.  So if your character is doing it, then it's OOC.  It's cheating because it's a bit of an exploit.  It doesn't help that you can make a shortcut to drink several potions at the same time, while also eating whatever fish, bread, mushrooms, and pies are in your inventory.

[Alphi]

If you can do it in the game and its not a bug then its not cheating

Whats to stop a mage form casting heal spells all the time or shield spells etc..
Or from running away whilst casting Fireball or Arrow..

Whats to stop a Ranged unit form taking pot shots at you from a distance?

Is it a DUEL in terms of Chivalry ? or is it a fight to the death ?

If its a duel in terms of Chivalry (you know the old walk 10 paces then turn and shoot, or pick your weapons beforehand then only use that weapon)
then ofcourse you shouldn't have potions, magic, ranged weapons etc..

but if its a fight to the death then anything goes.

[zanzibar]

If you can do it in the game and its not a bug then its not cheating

Whats to stop a mage form casting heal spells all the time or shield spells etc..
Or from running away whilst casting Fireball or Arrow..

Whats to stop a Ranged unit form taking pot shots at you from a distance?

Is it a DUEL in terms of Chivalry ? or is it a fight to the death ?

If its a duel in terms of Chivalry (you know the old walk 10 paces then turn and shoot, or pick your weapons beforehand then only use that weapon)
then ofcourse you shouldn't have potions, magic, ranged weapons etc..

but if its a fight to the death then anything goes.

I agree that in a fight for survival, everything goes.  However... it simply isn't realistic to drink so many potions at once in such a short period of time while doing so many other things at the same time.  It's going to be changed, and the RPers see it as OOC.  I guess it's not right to call it a "cheat", but still...

[Induane]

I think getting an extra attack if someone moves away makes good sense, as long as they are running away, not just taking a step back and putting up their shield.  It would be an attack of opportunity.  Also it makes sense to switch to full defensive mode if you back away.  Not many retreat with their shields down.  I wouldn't even mind seeing attack power increase a bit too if you are running foreward - like a charge.  This attack though should also leave you a bit vunerable for a brief period of time.  There really is plenty that could be done, but no matter what exploits of the game mechanics will exist and be used.  Sometimes there isn't much to do but hope the honor system works.

[Alphi]

I agree that in a fight for survival, everything goes.  However... it simply isn't realistic to drink so many potions at once in such a short period of time while doing so many other things at the same time. 

it simply isnt realistic to drink a potion and get healed but hey thats the beauty of magic..
and besides who says how big the potions are ?
they may be tiny little vials like shots...
I'm sure you could take a few nips from your healing flask if you were about to be pummelled intot he ground...

I think most RPGs have a solution to the idea of drinking 50 potions in 5 seconds..
I'm pretty sure that in most rpg games you need to give up a turn in order to drink a potion or cast a spell... with spell if you get hit while casting you lose the spell..
you could have something similar for potions..

[Vaylos]

as far as combat goes.  I pretty much consider all combat involving the game mechanics as OOC combat (unless there's an actual RP/plot reason for the combat)  Reason being, I don't really consider the character in the game an accurate representation of the character in my head.
Well...until his stats get tweaked enough to where he's a close representation. That, and no matter how fleshed the combat is, some jerk is going to find someway to exploit something in it.

It's a grey area I guess...but combat with the game mechanics isn't really what I consider "RP Combat". To clarify:  This is the distinction we used back on the muds (at least our guild did) That if you were to RP a fight it had to be typed out in the entirety. We weren't to use the game as the means for combat, simply because our characters in the mud weren't an accurate representation of the characters RP-wise.  Now...Planeshift is certainly not a MUD  ... well, not text based at least *cough*cough* And the systems are pretty free-form, so In essence, I guess in time my character/avatar if you prefer, could grow to become an accurate representation of the RP version. But I'm still kinda on the fence on that one. Chances are, I won't seriously duel someone in the RP sense until my character is up to par with what he should be in my head. Of course, what's in me head...well...let's not go there

eh, maybe i'm just trying to stay -too- seperated from my character

So, I guess my point is I don't see a problem quaffing potions like a lush in the heat of battle if you can type/click/whatever fast enough *smirk* Same goes for spells.  That is, against mobs at least.  When it comes to fights to the death, or even chivalry, I pretty much use the same fighting style, i.e. no potions, just my own skills with the blades until one of us goes down or yields. Vay's not a magic user, just twin shortswords, and some fancy footwork. Though, I will say that until the game gets further along in its development, the chances of me dueling are pretty much nil    Bring on the PvE!  ^_^

On a side note: about the potions vs. spell when getting hit.  if you get hit while trying to quaff a potion, you could have the vial/bottle shatter (possibly sending glass flying into the user's face  )  I do like the idea of quaffing a potion requiring a turn or round of combat too, it would make sense for it to require such, and require the user to be more wary about using potions on the fly.

*evilgrin* make using a potion force a de-equip of one hand.  Can't grab something from the pouch if your hands are full ^_^  *cackles and wanders back into the shadows*

[Alphi]

In real life what takes longer ?

Punching someone in the face.. or drinking a glass of milk ?

my point was only that if you hit the attack button it takes time for you to swing no matter how many times you hit the button..
so in the same line of thinking.. if you hit the drink or eat button.. it should take some amount of time. Spell casting takes time.. but currently eating food or drinking potions doesnt really

[Vengeance]

I agree that drinking a potion should take a few seconds and that your attack mode should be stopped while doing it.

[zanzibar]

Vaylos, I'm afraid that I strongly disagree with your position.

We can't just enter the game with a new character and decide "I'm going to RP the most powerful necromancer in the entire world!", or "I'm a ninja! I can dodge anything!".  In PS, we're roleplaying characters who start off relatively inexperienced with only a modest life history, and through our travels and adventures we increase in skill and experience.  This grown is expressed through stats.

You're talking about roleplaying your character, but your character is fresh off the farm because of the fundamental nature of Planeshift.  It's by design that we don't start off with powerful statistics, because it's not who our characters are until they actually spend time doing things.

[Araye]

I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but battles and sword vs. sword encounters (where "life is on the line") have never been a stationary fight.  They were usually one group running full bore at another group running at them with arrows raining down.  The victor was that group with the most standing afterwards.  This is very much the "hit and run" you're opposed to.  Battles were never the "Princess Bride" style of fight.  But that makes a great movie.  For PvP maybe a full on animation of parry, thrust, block, "but I'm not left handed either", giant swing, drop sword, offer sword, etc. is ok.  But it certainly isn't the way a battle occurs.

[Alphi]

thats how them mongols created the biggest land empire that ever existed.

simply by breaking all the rules...

when the europeans rode out to meet them.. expecting a duel of the top fighter versus the top fighter on each side..

the mongols would simply surround them and cut them down with arrows..

the europeans soon learned to change their tactics

[zanzibar]

I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but battles and sword vs. sword encounters (were "life is on the line") have never been a stationary fight.  They were usually one group running full bore at another group running at them with arrows raining down.  The victor was that group with the most standing afterwards.  This is very much the "hit and run" you're opposed to.  Battles were never the "Princess Bride" style of fight.  But that makes a great movie.  For PvP maybe a full on animation of parry, thrust, block, "but I'm not left handed either", giant swing, drop sword, offer sword, etc. is ok.  But it certainly isn't the way a battle occurs.

We're talking about one on one duels here.  Guild Wars are an extention of that.  To be honest... I'm not sure how your post really fits in with the rest of the thread, because you didn't really address the problems with the current mechanics.

thats how them mongols created the biggest land empire that ever existed.  simply by breaking all the rules... when the europeans rode out to meet them.. expecting a duel of the top fighter versus the top fighter on each side.. the mongols would simply surround them and cut them down with arrows.. the europeans soon learned to change their tactics

The mongols were horsemen though, which was their major advantage.  If it wasn't for their mobility, they wouldn't be able to pull that stuff off in battle, and they wouldn't be able to move as far or as quickly as they did.

But your post is off topic.  We're not talking about ranged attacks.