Thus it ends.

[Xordan]

Right, and we got the message after the first few posts about that. This has just become a 'take your shots at the GMs' thread.

[Induane]

Well as far as that goes you're right.  People here to simply take potshots at the GM's are guilty of hijacking the thread.  The people who do this aren't seeing that the decision that caused it wasn't the decisison of the GM's but a decision made over their heads.  I think though that the initial posts laid out the problem very well, then there were some potshots taken, then the love friendship of karyuu and verrliit, but that still leaves room for a good discussion on the solution or possible solutions to the problem.   Given that any popular thread is going to have its share of spam, its still possible to continue on and have a viable discussion of alternatives, and not just ideas but true solutions and how to have them implemented.  Simply because a thread is full of several spam posts does not mean that it can't still be a viable conduit to a solution to a problem. 

That said, I'd like to know who made the decision that GM's can't help with these type of tournaments, because I would like to prepare a statment to them outlining some of the issues involved, my stance, and some possible solutions.  Obviously it wasn't arbitrary so I'd also like to know the reason for the decision.  This might make me reconsider my stance.  I guess I'm just saying that at least I have some issues left unresolved here, and its possible to continue without everyone making a mockery of the discussion. I have confidence that hte players of planeshift can have a quality discussion.  I've seen it many times.

[Xordan]

Talad made the decision. The reasons behind the decision was that we don't want to support player events which make up their own settings. To quote: "the game will become a playground for any story where everyone will invent the future of Yliakum claiming it happened in game, so it's true." if GMs supported player events. Although personally I and some other devs think that GMs should be able to help events like tournaments which don't change or invent new settings, and that is being discussed by us.

[Cha0s]

Well. This has been a very interesting... and very long read. Several hours. Sorry I couldn't be in-game and read at the same time, but I thought this was more important. Where've I been? Not around as much as I should've been... that's the truth. There were three weeks where I should have been doing a bunch in-game, and I didn't do much. A lot of time was spent working on college applications, college visits, etc, but I still should have made more time for Planeshift. For this, I am sorry. However, other than those three weeks, I've been busy: I was in Japan for three weeks; I'm in upstate New York on vacation now and next week. I'm doing my best, but I can't be everywhere at once. When I get back I have two weeks before school starts. I WILL RUN AN EVENT THEN, EVEN IF I HAVE TO DO IT BY MYSELF. I swear it. Thats my promise to you, the Planeshift community. It won't be another rogues event; Akkaio won't be taken over... it may only involve four or five people, but it will happen. I also hope to run more events during the school-year, on the weekends especially.

Now, what I've taken from this thread: we need more GMs. Clearly, this is a big issue. We need more GMs, but they need to be carefully picked. I'm all for Proglin. And there are plenty of others who could do a good job... but we don't want to double the GM team in a week (this would be a bit chaotic). However, if we added 2 GMs every two weeks for the next couple months, I wouldn't be opposed; we just need to find the right people.

Also, we probably should publish some more information. Not the whole guide, then some players (the bad apples, not everyone!) will nitpick every action and scrutinize every single thing we do. But definitely a summary of some sort. As far as meeting minutes... perhaps a very brief summary, but again, players will argue over the decisions. We try to have a meeting every week... I don't want to be dealing with a bunch of argument threads every week. But major changes should definitely be passed on to players. Perhaps we can have a, "GM Policy Thread" that we update after major things happen in meetings.

Anyway, I'm very sorry that I haven't been around much and I'll do my best to remedy it. You will have an event (hopefully a bunch of events ) and I pledge to all of you that I'll do my best to serve you guys as a GM. I hope to see everyone in Planeshift soon!

[zanzibar]

To Proglin:  I would have been more sympathetic if you hadn't spoken about yourself in the third person, dropped so many names, and revised history.  Several of your tournaments ended in ruin after you freaked out because someone disagreed with you over some minor decision or interpretation of the rules.  And I definately think that your events promoted powerlevelling rather than roleplaying.  Coming back from the dead because it was more convenient?  How you only had a chance if your character was maxed out?  Further, most of the matches were ended by a player glitching out the other player or exploiting the mechanics of hit and run attacks.  I don't see how those things can be considered IC.

It doesn't mean that your events are bad, but they are what they are.

*looks at the door....looks at what the game is becoming.....looks at the door again....*

She was right. The downward spiral continues. In making the game, they are destroying the community.

Dude, stop being so elitist.  You don't own the game.  There is no downward spiral.  You're just trying to glorify 'the old days' in an attempt to make yourself appear greater than you are.

I am sorry.

Then my comments were missaimed.

But if no one has heard my voice on these matters before...

it is because they have not been listening.

Or did not care to hear.

Or maybe people understand you 100% and still disagree with you?

Right, and we got the message after the first few posts about that. This has just become a 'take your shots at the GMs' thread.

Most of the comments I've read in this thread look like constructive critisism.  They aren't all pot shots - many of them are valid concerns, even if many are based in ignorance and are solved with an explanation of what the real deal is.

[Proglin]

Luckely... you can always count on Zanzibar to make my day a tad worse Dear Zan... listen up. I freaked out on one of my tournaments, and only once. the reasons why, are personal and none of your business. Other tournaments, were won without glitching, you can ak the players that won, or lost. Also, I created something called a class-system, meaning that people of equal strength would fight one another. Minor, medium and master-class. Each one of them with their onw rewards and own fighters. Luckely, it's always the people that have no clue that critisize. You were invited once, but didn't accept. however, when you were asked to stay away, you came to screw things up. No worries Zanzibar.. be happy. This will be my last one. Just don't talk jibberish about things you know nothing about. Were you one of my referees and told me the tournaments were a bad idea and everything about them was wrong, I would have listened. Right now, I'm just getting a tad ticked off.

[Datruth]

Zanzibar, if you can make a better event, i think you have the right to critisize.

I think making proglin feel worse only makes us all feel bad.

I can't tell you how much patience goes into making this game fun, especially by the players, and these tournaments seem perfect, i also here about the ojafest, which also seems perfect.

I'd really like to see your 2 cents into the world of PS fun.

I'm not saying your bad or all, i'm saying, critisize after you've been through what you're critisizing about.

Untill then, you can't imagine the work that goes into it.

It's like someone looking at the Leaning Tower of Piza, and saying "What a complete failure".

I see the tower and say, "What a complete success, how beautiful it stands".

Understand what i mean Zanzibar?

[Karyuu]

Proglin! You haven't answered anything about that nomination yet. Are you up for it, or at least can we get your thoughts on it?

[Ambiguous-Existence]

OH MY LORD

This game is becoming a world of warcraft clone as its being developed with all the censorship and rstrictions and pretty much making it as unrealistic as possible. I liek the idea of the tournement and now they are saying you cant do such a thing. Hell i tried to make a business with other role players in world of warcraft and it was a pain in the ass because they developed the game with so many restrictions.

What happned to the good old days when the amiga 500, atari, megadrive, super famicen(super nintendo) were around and game makers constantly strived to make the most complex and creative game around without any cencorship and rules and restriction and simplistic ideas.

I need to learn to becoem a programmer so i can make a game such as this without any restrictions and so realistic that people will shout that it is an abomination. But that will never happen so oh well i guess we keep being creative with such ideas as the tournement till they totally shut it down.

SHAME, SHAME, SHAME on those who are against it, im Darren Hinch and good night    <---- a news reporter in australia used to always say that in teh end, god i love that phrase.

[ThomPhoenix]

I don't see how this game is becoming a World of Warcraft clone?

[Xordan]

I liek the idea of the tournement and now they are saying you cant do such a thing.

Nobody said that ever. Stop making up crap please.

[Karyuu]

Please do all forum members a favor and read the entire thread before posting.

[Ambiguous-Existence]

16 pages is a lto to read on a crappy dial up modem. so i skimmed through, and he said what pretty much happned in WoW. he had an idea, it was a cool idea and everyone liked it, then someone decided to be political correct and moral and took action against him, then no one helped him which orginally they once did and it ended. same thing as WoW, some people complained and the devs and other members decided to not provide help an possibly implement things in the future but that i doubt. Dont really care though about what happned, i do a bit but not so much, i would be more pissed off if i was paying to play the game.

if it was 3 pages o rthe devs commenst where on the first page then believe me i woudl read it, but im not that patient, sorry abput that if what i said was incorrect, but thats the idea i got from what he said happned to him.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

And I definately think that your events promoted powerlevelling rather than roleplaying.

Powerleveling and Roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, I wish people would stop complaining about max stats it is unreasonable, the game mechanics allow for it, it will be done. I would argue that some characters MUST have max stats to be true to their character. There are also those who choose to play a handicap (a missing leg, blind, mute etc) or a child, or a ghost, and for that reason or other roleplaying reasons, they choose not to max their characters. Xillix for instance does not mine and does not craft metals, they are not things one raised to be an Octarch would do, but self defence, magic and history are things she would be trained for. Grow passed the issue, there are MANY MANY excellent roleplayers with max stats. You do not want to slog through thousands of npcs to get there, then don't, but dont make it an issue that someone else enjoys that aspect of the game. Is it ooc to spawn camp? Sure. The npcs will eventually move etc. Will it still be ooc to hunt them until you are as powerful as you want to be?

Proglin I hope you apply, and i even remember the setil and narita thing, me and maelgwynn probably won in part because of that.

If someone works as hard for an event as proglin does the thought of someone feeling that the host may have made an error can be very overwhelming in the moment. I think a degree of understanding is in order in this instance.

[I evoked zanzibar more because i thought he would pick at the sillier arguments in this thread . . . those are not Proglin's IMHO]

[zhai]

Talad made the decision. The reasons behind the decision was that we don't want to support player events which make up their own settings. To quote: "the game will become a playground for any story where everyone will invent the future of Yliakum claiming it happened in game, so it's true." if GMs supported player events. Although personally I and some other devs think that GMs should be able to help events like tournaments which don't change or invent new settings, and that is being discussed by us.

Does this mean no settings ideas are welcome despite the obvious need of more to be wirtten in the current settings? A bit over-controlling IMHO when many good things can come from these events. I'm not talking about a "whatever happens in-game is to be considered reality" rule but something coherent to the current development point of the game: RP ideas are tried by players which can add up to the settings, while there will be mistakes, there will also be good things. Working with these can help, choosing those aspects of player organized events that are both missing from the settings and not in conflict with them, especially if the dev team is too busy with other more urgent things.

I have a great deal of respect when it comes to someone's creative process. There is a vision here to be fulfilled yet that same vision doesn't need to be carried out by only one person. Being able to pick from the good stuff that comes out of player events and edit it so it fits with such a vision does not exclude the original image in the mind of the creator nor does it have to change it.