Multi Clienting

[Kalika]

uhm...i have alts but when im moving items to my other character i drop them where i hope no one will pick them up and then sign on to my other char and get them to pick it up....thats alright right?


cause i dunnos if i want anyone to know who my other char is so i cant switch through someone else

[neko kyouran]

Chess is a different scenario.  If you were playing two games of planeshift on different servers, that would be like playing two games of chess at once.  If you had twice as many of your own pieces on the chess board as the opponent... that would be cheating.

Actually, if I were the opponent of said person, I wouldn't call them cheating, I'd call it a challenge to myself to try and win with a handicap.

I don't see why the whole gosh darn world has to be so negative at times.  If the glass is half empty, have the waiter refill it.

[LigH]

Kalika - in a guild, or with close friends, you often have a chance to ask for a trade with a man in the middle. Dropping is not really necessary to exchange items. If you can trust at least one more player.

By dropping items, there is a higher risk that items get stolen, or vanish in a server reboot or longer unability to log in.
__

For myself, I am happy to be able to run one client on my old system. And having alts is already challenging.

Multi-clienting (only possible with more powerful hardware anyway) would act out into business and stress. Not good for my style.

[ramlambmoo]

Actually, if I were the opponent of said person, I wouldn't call them cheating, I'd call it a challenge to myself to try and win with a handicap.

Its still cheating.  And if you were playing against any decent player of chess with half the pieces they had, you'd lose every time.

[drah]

I Multi-client for 2 reasons...

1) Safe place to stash the extra loot I can't carry.
2) Useful for RPs when others don't wish to get involved.

I've found multi-clienting useful and would hope, that by not abusing it to gain advantage over others, and use it just to enhance RP like I and many others do... that this option won't be taken away!?!

[Croconil]

I can see what you mean about the trading between accounts, this may prove difficult if you have noone you can trust.

We need a bank/chest such as in guild wars

[Xylaal]

I have participated in many wonderful RP's large and small where multiclienting was the tool that pushed the mystery over the edge. I know some folks who use it on a daily basis in such creative way as to enhance my and other experience. This is not cheating.

For those who would take advantage of mAlts/double boxing, you cannot legislate this and, as well, why should anyone care? You will go on in your PS life as you were and so there will be some rich folks hanging around who multicliented their way to the top but then what? What then do they do? Wait for the wipe? Let them be. Ignore them if you must but don't worry about it so much. If you're worried about them maxing stats too quickly, there are so many who are maxed and become maxed every day it doesnt matter. What matters is how you are with those around you - the character environment you create - that's what will last past the wipes.

Enjoy and don't worry.



   

[Hadfael]

@ Xylaal:
There are many things that don't matter in the perspective of a coming wipe. But in the perspective of a coming persitent world a.k.a Planeshift, it's important to set clear from the start that the goal of PS is not to become the most powerful by any means uncluding using a mule alt to carry more than regular players. The goal of PS is not to frustrate anyone. So better state from the start what's right and what's wrong. More than a tech-demo of the client and server capabilities, this early releases are a demo of the hability of players to set the world alive. It's never too early to cure a bug not to prevent a "bugged player" from forging bad habits.
And not need to say that it's fine because the system allows it that mAlting -nice neologism BTW- is fine.
As I said a few posts ago, it's fine to use the system for what it's intended to; in extenso Roleplaying. And obviously everyone agreed that it could open imaginative possibilities. But when I read that a mAlt can be used to carry what doesn't fit in a main characters' inventory, I wonder why there is a limit for what you can carry implemented and what is the goal in life of this mule mAlt. A mule is just an inconsistent waste of bandwidth and database space that could be used for the roleplay. using it to RP once in a month when it's not busy carrying more, is just an excuse.
If you have some technical possibility and the needed skills to RP more than one char, do it. Otherwise it's just abusing the system possibilities.
And it's something we can care to see spreading in what will survive the next wipe and any other to come: the PS community of players. To let cheaters enjoy PS now don't have to be seen as a weakness of this community for any newcomer willing to join before the wipe.
Ignore them now and you'll have to deal with them later because they will be the community that enjoyed most the ignoring times. A purpose of wipes is to preserve the balance, and how to define the rules of PS economy and balancing of skills when all the stats ingame are insane due to the use of cheats?

[Xylaal]

@ Hadfael
Wrong interpretation of the spirit of my post. I only mean to say;

1. Believe it - there ARE people using multiclienting in a beneficial way that enhances others gaming experience..I've RP 'ed with them many times. This exsists. It's fun...
2.I NEVER said I condoned any of the powerleveling or any of the other activities that give unfair advantage through multiclienting - I dont condone it. I just dont feel that there's much we as players can do about it. If you wish to "prevent a bugged player from forging bad habits" I believe that is your job not the job of the player. If you wish to do that then set down a rule. Otherwise why worry.
- if on the other hand you wish the community to police this some way - I think that is vertually impossible from our end.
3. In writing my post I was mostly trying to ease the outrage of some, by presenting a viewpoint that leaves all the "setting it clear from the start" (as you wrote) and future decisions in this matter in YOUR and the devs capable hands, as we know it is your responsibility to set those parameters (i.e. if you want to legislate it...it's up to you and we shall abide when it comes down but til then; players, I, need not worry my head about that ). I wrote this in my post to calm...not to incite. To just simply say (as I wrote)  enjoy the game.
4.Right now, (correct me if I'm wrong) I dont think we are hearing one unified voice on this from devs and GMs etc...so, discussion is very good here, just dont aim this all at me please.
5.If the goal of PS is not to frustrate anyone then why, if you wish to discourage fighting and encourage RP, is the only way to advance your PP by killing? Yes this will change later I've read but...like I said, so will many things.
6. "Ignoring them". Hmmm. How can I say this nicely. It is YOU folks who make the rules. If there is no rule, Hadfael, and you do not wish to frustrate your players when they see someone multiclienting incorrectly (like mutli-mining), then I say to them (as I did in my post)...ignore it for your own guts sake..so you dont feel so bad. What else would you have us do?
7. I have always read that this is not a test...that we are playing THE game and that it will always be a work in progress...I like that concept. It makes things exciting. And wipes are wipes. So are you telling me in your reply that you disagree that the character enviroment, circle of friends and personality that the player makes for the character is the important thing [as it will survive a wipe and material things wont] ? I believe it is very important. I think you do too.

It sounds like you are attacking me for posting a philosophy that espouses a live and let live attitude toward PS, that's fine. But don't put words into my mouth.   

[Under the moon]

I would like to supliment point 5."If the goal of PS is not to frustrate anyone then why, if you wish to discourage fighting and encourage RP, is the only way to advance your PP by killing? Yes this will change later I've read but...like I said, so will many things." with this thread: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=25763.0

I, personaly, find leveling to be more frustrating than someone 'cheating' to 'get ahead' with more than one character.. I am known as a devoted roleplayer. If I wished to make a higher level character to RP with, and could use mAlts to do it, would I? Damn straight. Then I would pretend that my character never leveled in the first place, but learned those skills in life long before I ever even thought of him. If I wanted to RP a character that was rich, yet weak in all skills (Arnigus, for those that know him) would I use mAlts to make money to support his RP, or even glitches in the game to makey that money? Again, yes. The problem is not cheating, it is that some people -have- to cheat to create the character they wish to play.

Too many things focus on what other people are doing, while ignoring what is "frustrating" to the individual player. Like I have stated before, why worry about this? Your character does not see botting. Your character does not see mAlts as one person. Your character sees someone doing this as two people. If they do not respond to you? So what? Not everyone will talk to you in real life either. You can not compare this chess. Chess has a purpose, an end, and a winner. PS has none of these things. You make your own purpose, and there never will be an end or winner. For those that do cheat to get to the 'end' of the game, or maxing all their stats and getting all the cooll l33t stuff, as they see it, let them. The sooner they get done, the sooner they can move on to another game.

The only thing I see as cheating is being able to affect another character directly, such as killing, robbing, or blocking of quests. Greaving, in other words.

Let me point out that I do not level up my characters, nor do I go after loot. Even if I did, this 'cheating' would still not affect me one bit. My character would see someone hard at work at what they were doing, then move on. End of story.

[Hadfael]

@everyone:
This thread is more a general reflexion about how *we the players* (even since I became GM, I still consider me as one) can use multiple clients. It's something everyone of us has to think about when running a client. Before defining rules that GMs will have to enforce, I think it's better to explain everyone why they should not abuse of mAlt. In the same time, considering how mAlts can increase an imaginative RP (on that we all agree), it's important to tell possible cheaters why it's made possible and why some uses should not be made of them.
It's the responsability of GMs to enforce rules, but it's players responsability to avoid breaking them.

1. Use multiple clients if you can to improve your RPing fun and the on of pple you interract with.
2. As a player, don't focus on powerleveling since there is little for you to earn in the perspective of your future life in the PS world.
3. don't wait for others (devs, gms, game mechanics) to tell you what's right and what's wrong.
4. (this was not personal, sorry again if it seemed so)
5. advance your character by his history, relationships, actions, knowledge of the world and its inhabitants (NPCs *and* players).
6. report to GMs abuses you witness and ignore them IC
7. the PS world (created by your RP) and your place in its population are not going to be wiped. Only stats and wealth are.

_________________
@Xylaal:
It's my mistake if my post sounded personaly directed against you. Look at my posts count and you'll see that I am not good at posting
I am glad there are many players like you who agrees with me. I was just unable to separate my advices, to every one tempted by using mAlts against possible abuses, from my reply to you. But in fact, at least the two of us are agreeing on the essential (we  should form a sect ). Don't hesitate to contact me ingame so I can apologise and clarify myself.
_________________

[Xylaal]

Thanks Hadfael.  I understand what you are saying about the way you post. It's all good.
 Discussions like this can only make the game better.

UTM, that link is good. A lot of meat in that thread.