someone messed up that quote
That's how it appears on the web site itself, I copy/pasted it directly from PS history. I too questioned that excerpt in a different thread a while ago, also bolding the "his" and the "she".
and again.. why would a person beleave only writing that can be just the stories of some joe? what if i wrote that i am god, and if i look at you you are dead.. if i see you you are dead.. yet i can talk to you all i want.. and nothing will happen to you? would you bealve that?
I don't "believe" the writing, I simply read and question it, hence the whole point of this thread. And the writing is obviously written OOC (Out-of-Character) by Luca "Talad" Pancallo (or whomever wrote the original PS history years ago), and not "some joe". If the story was some "Sacred Text" available to everyone IC (In-Character), then everyone in Yliakum would be aware of the "Black Flame", would they not? Unless it's some kind of a "conspiracy" and everyone's keeping it a secret as if it was a taboo. Most likely, people will slowly be finding out about it through NPC/quest interaction and similar experiences.
PS history is nothing more than a
Game Backstory. Go look up on the web what a "Game Backstory" means or go to as many MMORPG sites as possible and you'll see a very similar style of writing under the "Game Backstory" titles. Here is one example:
Game BackstoryThe whole point of it is to introduce players to a gaming world. Hence the word "Game" in it. If something
is a sacred text, like a Bible, then it is usually clearly presented as such, and is also available in game, either in a single or multiple text writings/books.
Get it now, I hope?
a person that JUST arrives to the world (from player POV) or a person that arrives to the city that says such things.. better yet.. for me to beleave your logic.. (to beleave what a group of ppl says in an area and what is writen as text and belaved to be true.. is in fact true) then YOU MUST beleave that EVERY religion on earth (this is in rl mind you.. so take it persanly) is telling the truth.. and is saying factual things regaurdless of what you think. were you came from, or what you know.. that if i goto iran/iraq then i MUST worship allah since allah is the god said to be real, with groups saying he is.. and with texts saying he is.. AND.. the same would apply if i when to.. idk.. italy that GOD (chris.) is the god.. or if i goto chine. then budda or w/e it is..
You don't "just" arrive to the world, whether from a player POV or any other POV. You're supposed to read the Game Backstory to familiarize yourself with basic concepts, and your character itself didn't "just" arrive to a city either. He was supposed to have grown up in or around at least one of the present cultures, which you know as a player when you customize your character in the first place and choose his/her childhood experiences and activities, all of which affect his perceptions of the in-game world. So, I don't know where you got the idea that if you arrive to a different city, you suddenly must worship their popular god. If you grew up in a Xacha village, for example, it's very likely that you'd be quite familiar with Laanx religion, and if you grew up in a Kran village, it's very likely that you'd be familiar with Talad's religion. It doesn't mean that you immediately change your religions when traveling between different cities within PlaneShift world or that you don't question either religion while growing up or after having grown up.
dont say it doesnt apply.. cuz its the same thing..
It doesn't apply because it's not the same thing.
your want everyone to have a realigion.. that follows what your char follows.. lets see it in the form of my char POV. its the same thing..
It's not the same thing and no, I don't. Where did I say that I want everyone to have a religion? Don't twist what I said. What I want, and I already stated it clearly, is to understand. For example, are Diaboli really "atheists"? Are they banned from following one or any religion? If not, how would it make sense from an RP perspective, considering things I've already mentioned? Why do they have a penalty to holy/blessed/sacred places and objects? Do they already have a god they've never given up their faith in and are they tied to him/her or are they free to worship another god or no one at all?
Yes, let's see it from your char POV. Just because he may have grown up in a culture that follows a particular god, does not mean he isn't free to choose whether he wants to follow that god, another god or no god at all, eventually. Life never stops changing like that.
i was born in a household, no religion.. nothing, then move to a city that has 2-3 relgions, so 3 groups. each group says "o.. trust us.. we have a god.. and they dont.. look at this evidence", then shows you some papers.
is that enough for you to say "YEP the gods are real.. i can FEEL them.. i can SEE them.. they are EVERYWHERE!"
No but it gives you a freedom to
choose at this point whether you want to continue being an "atheist" or decide to worship their god and see if it gives you any benefits, rewards, protection etc. That is the whole point, which you are missing!
if you say yes.. your an idiot.. of course not..
Don't try to control my responses with pre-written insults. You're a nobody to me, so as I said it to someone else before - shove it to yourself and keep it to yourself!
with all your quotes.. they are writen accounts from the past.. not "OMG did you hear about john yesterday.. Laanx just spoke to him.. and POOF! he was gone!!" so disproved!!!
No, they are part of the
Game Backstory, designed to introduce a player to the world of PlaneShift, so you didn't disprove anything.
I'd like to make a statement just to make sure there are no future misunderstandings or preconceptions on the points I'm making - I'd like neither to force a religion on every race in PS nor ban them from one or any. I'm trying to figure out whether, according to the backstory, there are already such restrictions, and the reasons behind them, so I can later decide whether it makes sense in the first place, taking into account everything the backstory states, and whether I'm then comfortable with choosing a particular race based on that. And if it ever becomes a question of how I feel about religion in real life, it's simple really - I don't automatically dismiss the idea of a god and religion, and I don't automatically dismiss a solely scientific explanation either. I listen to both sides of the story and question things. That's the most interesting way to go about it, in my opinion.
Different gods have different, powers...
Very convenient, isn't it?
Apparently not so different in the case of Gradnes and Laanx anyway...
Besides, a god in an official PS history vs an imaginary god in some person's speculation?
This is from your own quote:
Gradnes punished them, and he punished them harshly. His love for their beauty would not let his kill them all or disfigure them, but out of jealousy he cursed them so they could never worship another god
And this:
and he destroyed their lands, he made great volcanoes rise from the ground, the rivers run red and a great cloud so they would never see the sky again.
Let's see - both, Gradnes and Laanx have the power to murder a race (Laanx can kill with a single whisper) but do not out of feeling sorry for them, both can transform a land into something else, both can put curses on others (Laanx cursed all of Yliakum), both are evil, hateful and jealous. But yet Laanx does not put an exclusive curse on Klyros, even though she has no way of knowing for sure that they won't worship Talad but your imaginary god in an imaginary story does.
My examples and reasoning make sense because they are logical and are based on the existing events described in PS history rather than just making up stories out of thin air as I go along, as long as they suit me. Once again, this is
PS history vs
a made up story to suit someone else's beliefs. I can make up a story where Gradnes doesn't even exist. At least I'm asking for an official answer rather than making up silly and not very credible stories as a defense.
Besides, explain to me what your god Gradnes represents. Is it a representation of a "merciful" god? Is it a manifestation of something particular? Is it a representation of an "evil", "hateful", "jealous" god? Give me one good reason for why Gradnes would act differently than Laanx in the same situation, considering the already mentioned similarities. He's different? Why is he different? What made him different? Give me something reasonable. "Because I said so" or "Because I wrote him that way" isn't good enough, it's a cop out, and any good writer would know that.
obviously i made the story up on a whim. But i have never actualy asked an evil god what he would do in such surcamstances. And seeing as Vodul is more powerful he could easily bring them through the portal without the notice of the lesser god.
You don't need to ask an evil god what he would do in such circumstances. You wrote the story, remember? You mean you don't know why you wrote it that way? Besides, one only needs to look at an existing example of one (Laanx) to know what an evil god might do in a similar situation - it's reasonable. Or at least ask a story writer, who wrote Diaboli, Laanx, Klyros etc. It's a reasoning out of a single person's mind, which is why I'm asking questions here. You have to agree that it's a lot more credible to base my reasoning on the existing writings that are part of the official PS history than pulling things out of a thin air just to try and justify something.
As for Vodul, we only know for sure that he is more powerful than Laanx and Talad, and we also know for sure that other gods are more powerful than Laanx and Talad. But we don't know for sure if Vodul is more powerful than other gods. Luring the races from other gods does not imply that he is more powerful. If he was, he wouldn't "lure" the races, he'd "make" them move to Yliakum. It isn't unusual for gods in different fantasy settings to mess with an opposing god's followers, to seduce them or to confuse them. Does not mean that he is more powerful than the gods themselves.
And If he is, indeed, the most powerful god in PlaneShift universe (which is debatable), then why didn't he lift the curse from Diaboli? He
was trying to help Laanx and Talad, after all, especially being so fond of Laanx. Should've been peanuts for him to do. See, again, this is reasonable, logical, and it makes sense.
I want to address something else from your story:
and he destroyed their lands, he made great volcanoes rise from the ground, the rivers run red and a great cloud so they would never see the sky again. The diaboli, distrught with anger, mostly at themselves, where too ashamed to ever speak of how any of this came about again.
Let me see - Diaboli were so distraught about this and left their "harsh" land that as soon as they arrive to Yliakum, they start building structures with Vulcan style architecture that looks like either an erupting volcano, a flowing lava, or all of the above?
If you were "abducted by aliens" and then let go, would the first thing you did be build a house that looks like a flying saucer, and your bedroom that looks like an operating room, and your bed that looks like an operating table?
Yes, they were distraught, indeed...
and why not spin the same argument onto the god? what made the god? and w/e made the god should infact be god yes?
Not sure if you're asking in game or in real life. In game, a writer made a god, hopefully based on something rather than a random cop out. In real life, if god truly exists, who knows? Maybe a god just appeared out of nothingness? When people talk about "The Big Bang" theory, it always comes down to "but what made the initial matter from which the explosion happened?" or "where did the energy for the explosion come from?", and before that, and before that, yadda yadda? What if the very first thing, whether it's a god or universe is just something that was there? Even if the very starting point is nothingness? What if "nothingness" got "bored"? Anyway, no one can tell for sure one way or another.
AND AGAIN.. with that logic.. your saying that if i talk to a historian.. that w/e they say is fact? so i goto.. oja.. and a historian says that some guy naMED Tippy is a god of.. Goxen a new religion.. that what he just said is infact true.. reguardless of anything i know or have done/seen. in game.. if your char heard that.. would he quit his religion and just join the new religion in oja? i dont think he would..
If it's a multiple witness account of something, then it's as close to a fact as you can get. Even if it's not a pure 100% fact, it's probably still more credible than a single person's theories. And I'm not talking about religion here, just regular history. Of course, it can be affected by the victors, if it's a history describing an outcome of a war. So, the only alternative is to travel back in time. Can you? No. You have to draw conclusions (OR doubts!) on what's available. As for religion, I have my doubts in real life, I question both, religious and scientific explanation of life creation and universe.
and how can you say that Talad made the magic if its magic? that would mean that the glyphs arnt made by the magic mages that sell them but that they just find them randomly yes? or rather that they are handed them by talad to sell for 100% profit?
According to PS Game Backstory, Talad forged the magic into a suitable form for mortals. "Hydlaa" - the most powerful glyph, has already existed without Talad's creation. And yes, mortals in PlaneShift find glyphs randomly all over, and no one knows how they appear, at least according to PS backstory, description, game guide etc.
As for the origen of races... lets not make this difficult. It is easy to answer, and the answer needs no more discussion, all races other than Kran were created outside of the PS world, period.
No,
Kran AND
Lemurs were created inside the Yliakum, not
just Kran. Did you read PS history?
We know nothing other than that so accept it as that, no records were brought forth and no information was offered by the gods, end of debate.
We know much more than that from the Game Backstory. And once again - those who don't ask any questions, never learn anyhing. You go ahead and accept what you are told as a fact because "someone said so" but I won't. When an author is asked the kinds of questions I ask and the answer is basically - "Because I said so" or "It just is, there is no big reason" or "We just wanted it that way, there is no explanation", it's a sign of a very weak story. Great stories that were written with a lot of care never make an author get offended and give cop out answers like those. They might say something similar to, "These beings/god represents a darker side of a human nature, their fears, nightmares, and horrors personified". Of course, Luca or anyone involved in writing the story and settings hasn't answered, so I won't put those words into their mouths. I only posted this to make a point to LARAGORN.
As for when we end this discussion is for us and not you to decide. We have free will and can make our own decisions. If you personally don't want to participate, feel free to leave this thread any time, no one's holding a gun to your head.
Thanks.
EDIT: What I'm asking is very reasonable. I'm not asking the writers or anyone to explain the creation of PlaneShift universe or every single little thing. A lot of what I mentioned above were just examples and to make a point. Sure, there are some things that can't be explained even in a fantasy setting. However, I'm asking a very valid question, largely based on PS history itself, which most successful and interesting MMORPG story writers either already have or can give a reasonable explanation for in a similar situation. And when you take various PS backstory contradictions and plot holes into account in regards to my questions, it becomes even more important to know the answer. It's not like I'm asking to explain the meaning of life here, even if it's limited only to PS universe. The answer itself can significantly impact the RP experience and choices that my character makes, even if I stick with Diaboli only. But it's important for every race in PS. C'mon, something as basic as races surely must have a good explanation behind their traits and peculiarities, and even a basic history rather than just "oh, they just came through portal". Thanks!
