Crafting, Metals, Alloys, and Order of training

[rtrentc]

I have been playing a crafter now for a little bit, and this is where I think a lot can be done to give the game more flair and make more use of items already in the game.

1). Currently for the crafting of Armor and Weapons we have the following metals available
    A) Copper
    B) Bronze
    C) Iron
    D) Steel.

There are other metals that can be mined, but if you are being true to chemistry and physics, then you wouldn't
use Zinc, Mercury,Silver or Gold except as ornamentation.

2). As it stands right now, unless changed, only steel will be used for weapons and iron for shields.

This means that we have at least two metals that even if you added the rules for them wouldn't be used on shields and three on weapons, because steel weapons and iron shields (steel if you allowed it) are the best. And who is going to make inferior weapons when all of his competitors can also make steel. So if you want to see some more variance in the composition of weapons then you need to structure it so that it is the less effective weapons that can be made first. The Copper, the Bronze, the Iron swords and clubs. (not to sure about the copper but I know that bronze was in use long before iron or steel.). This is not to say that your current system doesn't work, just that there is no justification for making bronze. You have an alloy in the rules that wouldn't be used to make weapons at all since steel exists.

So here is my proposition as it were.

  Metals used
   A) Copper
   B) Bronze (alloy of copper and tin)
   C) Brass (alloy of copper and zinc)
   D) Iron
   C) Steel (alloy of Iron and Carbon aka Coal)

  Weapons and Shields

   A) Low levels use copper.
   B) Mid Low levels use bronze
   C) Mid levels use brass
   D) Mid High levels use iron
   E) High levels use steel

  Metallurgy From Low to High

   A) Melting Copper, Copper ingots
   B) Melting Tin, Tin Ingots. Copper Stocks
   C) Melting Zinc, Zinc Ingots, Tin Stocks, Making Bronze, Bronze Ingots
   D) Making Brass, Brass Ingots, Zinc Stock, Bronze Stock
   E) Melting Iron, Iron Ingots, Brass Stocks
   F) Melting Silver,Mercury. Silver Ingots, Mercury ingots, Iron Stocks
   G) Making Steel, Steel ingots, Silver Stock Mercury Stock
   H) Melting Gold, Gold ingots, Steel Stock
   I) Gold Stock.

As you can see from my list it would cause more variety of crafted items to enter the game, It would extend the length of time needed to master your craft.

What I don't know is because this radically alters the availability of the various metals what you would have to do about all the other items currently running around in the game. It would certainly force the creation of a greater variety of weapons, shields and armor.

[Bepules]

Just as addition: The only useful metal for crafting is steel. There is no way to use iron stocks, neither for weapons nor for shields (you can only make shield parts but you cannot combine them to a shield)

If you think about the use of metals in the prehistorical order (after Christian Thomson's so called 3 period system) you have to use at first stone, then copper, then bronze, then iron and then steel.
But PlaneShift is a fantasy world, only with a medivial touch, means we don't have to use this order. 

For now there is already a order in metalurgy: iron, steel, silver and bronze and finally gold.

What I would prefer is that you can add some minerals like diamonds if you are a more skilled crafter to sharpe your blades. This weapons would have a higher slash than normal steel weapons then.

In general I agree with rtrentc, there are so many different types of weapons ingame but you can only craft a few types. Only axemaking allows you to make two non standart types of axes, but these are still bugged.
What I want to say: There are e.g. bronze short swords in the game as well as bronze but you cannot use bronze to craft bronze swords.
An other interesting thing would be if a very high skilled magician could be able to make dark or fire or other types of magic weapons from crafted weapons. But that's another issue...

[Zan]

Well I would hope that this is on the to-do list because it's a very logical suggestion.

[rtrentc]

If you wish to keep the current order of metals suggested in the previous reply (iron, steel, silver, bronze (add brass), gold) then we could allow this under the assumption that the crystal energy flowing through planeshift fundementally alters the structure of alloys at the molecular level. This would allow the non real ordering to be explained. Otherwise you will have to reorder the system to put the alloys into the correct order as seen in the real world.

[Farren Kutter]

rtrentc is just trying to say that bronze (and the others) coming after steel makes little to no sense

[Nikodemus]

Also, iron and coal, - components needed for steel are less rare than for bronze, what makes steel even more superior. Of course in Yliakum natural resources are  maybe differently rare.

All allys worse than steel won't be used unless for other purposes.

But maybe some alloys are better suited for magic bearer?
Who said that in future warfare equipment is all what we are going to craft?

[Bepules]

Yes, I think of tools like rock picks and hammers, or even kitchen tools for cooks would be great to make from metals.

Also, iron and coal, - components needed for steel are less rare than for bronze, what makes steel even more superior. Of course in Yliakum natural resources are  maybe differently rare.

The question which material you should be able to work on at first is not a question of the quantity of it, it is a question how easy you can work on it, means which has a low smelting temperature and which allows little mistakes in the amount of the part of an alloy.

once again the prehistorical order metal was used:

- at first copper
- then bronze (maybe an accidentally alloy made at a place in east europe where tin and copper can be find at the same place)
- same time with bronze gold and silver
- at last iron, later then hardened with coal, maybe accidentally too from the roman province Noricum where iron can be found with a high amount of carbon

But I see no need to make a sense with working on the metals, it is Yliakum and not the real world. It's like crafting, nobody would sharpen a blade and than hammer it several times to raise the quality of the blade. In Yliakum we do. An other example is that we cannot use molten iron to make steel, in real world this is the normal way to make steel...

[Unnamed_Source]

There are other metals that can be mined, but if you are being true to chemistry and physics, then you wouldn't use Zinc, Mercury,Silver or Gold except as ornamentation.

Everything looks great but this line doesn't wordwrap, could be an issue witht the forum, coul you please break it at "physics, then" all the same. thanks

I don't see a use for Mercury in PS, most of the uses in real life extend past the stage PS is supposed to be in, thermometers, thermostats, barometers, batteries, auto/electrical parts, and flouresent/neon lighting are the most common uses of Mercury. The one use Murcury has that would be natural to this setting would be of the amalgamation of silver or gold ingots. Later the Mercury is evporated to leave the pure silver or gold. Extracting it also is not done on a furnace directly but in a still, so that the evaporated Mercury gas is captured. Also if we are going to be mining mercury, lets call it cinnabar in it;s natural form. Likewise you will not get Mercury as solid ingots, as it is a liquid in room temperature.

I think the process for silver/gold refinment should be in reverse, first cast the Mercury with silver/gold to make an amalgam of silver/gold, then put it in the furnace to make it pure silver/gold as the Mercury evamporates, and finally recast it to make an ingot or stock. And that way Cinnabar needs to be mined and processed to extract the Mercury.

[bilbous]

Mercury makes a good ingredient for a poison, does it actually occur in the game?

[Illysia]

Isn't there a Chinese pyramid that is supposed to have a mercury river flowing in there (well at least back when it was made)? Mercury can be used as ornamentation aside from weapons.  And maybe that creepy barber/surgeon in Hydlaa uses it for medicinal purposes. 

[saladasalad]

IMO, all of the current materials should go and fictional Ylian materials should be created. I think that this would enhance the RP experience and the overall atmosphere of Yliakum, the history of the materials could be expanded.


I should mention IVAN, an excellent, though long-abandoned, roguelike. IVAN has a unique (AFAIK) materials system where every single object has a materials property which determines certain properties such as strength, sharpness, etc. For PlaneShift, this would mean that items can be constructed from any material as long as there is some way to craft it. A diamond rock pick would be much more efficient that a standard iron one.

[Farren Kutter]

IMO, all of the current materials should go and fictional Ylian materials should be created. I think that this would enhance the RP experience and the overall atmosphere of Yliakum, the history of the materials could be expanded.

No, bad idea. Since the world is based in a universe that is likely our own, the atomic elements would thus be the same, and their alloys as well. Twenty galaxies away, I am quite sure that gold is still gold on a planet or in a place of similar/same conditions as the earth. It is Yliaki, BTW, not Ylian.... Ylian is the name of the human race.

[saladasalad]

IMO, all of the current materials should go and fictional Ylian materials should be created. I think that this would enhance the RP experience and the overall atmosphere of Yliakum, the history of the materials could be expanded.

No, bad idea. Since the world is based in a universe that is likely our own,

I always assumed that the title PlaneShift was indicating that the game is not set in this universe.

the atomic elements would thus be the same, and their alloys as well. Twenty galaxies away, I am quite sure that gold is still gold on a planet or in a place of similar/same conditions as the earth.

The likelihood of them coming up with the same names for those materials is almost zero though. Then again. raising that argument would open a whole new can of worms though because they likely wouldn't speak English either. So yeah, good point.

It is Yliaki, BTW, not Ylian.... Ylian is the name of the human race.

Cheers, I was wondering about that.

[Nikodemus]

The fact Ylian look like human, people breath and bilions of other facts prove the universe Yliakum is in, is built the same as our real universe. So atoms, molecles and so on. And if these, naturally formed resourcess will be more or less the same... depending on conditions how the Yliakum "planet" (or whatever) was built and influenced.
I'm not going to play expert, but realistically speaking, Yliakum should feel great lack of carbon, or its lack at all. Why? recall yourself how carbon we mine was created on Earth.
Considering Yliakum is hundreds kilometers inder the "ground" in a... stalactite The place i would expect carbon if somewhere, is outside Yliakum, somewhere deep in the tunels, because maybe it got that deep once, in the past. I would expect great expeditions there. This would also make Yliakum a more unique and believable world. Add something special and real about it, something more than just the fact its inside stalactite, something a common player never care about if the world all around looks almost exactly like the world on planet surface.

Carbon inside stalactite? Only way i can imagine it, is by residuing, probably in chemical compounds and not in its pure form.

[Zan]

Carbon is a residue of life. Coal is formed by dead plants being crushed together under tons of earth. Yliakum has life (don't ask me how they got there in the first place ) so it definitely has carbon and I guess there has been life down there long enough for it also to have coal.

As for the order of alloys ... they're ordered mostly from less useful to most useful here. But what about which is discovered first? In Yliakum we had the resources for steel before those for other alloys were available. So you could argue that steel was discovered first and the techniques for making it were spread among the smithing community before other newer (albeit less suited) alloys were experimented with?