well I'm level 5 now and have a few complaints...

[Induane]

From UtM:

I 100% disagree with training having to be expensive to limit the 'maxxing' time of a character. Money should not be a factor in training at all if you do not wish it. The only thing that should limit training should be training stamina. Simply put, you can only learn so much in a day. Run out of physical training stamina and your body starts doing damage to itself (reverse training). Run out of mental training stamina and you simply will not learn any more. Run out of magic training stamina, and you mess up a practice spell and your head explodes. That is both realistic and limiting.

Adding money to the equation should do two things: Give you better resources to train faster and use your training stamina more efficiently. Second is to access special training you could not learn otherwise.

Edit: Also DEATH TO PP! Hate them. Kill them. Not needed. Not wanting. Unroleplayable. Pointless. Unrealistic. What are they anyways?

This touches nicely on several of the issues, and UtM brilliantly clarifies it more later as well. 

My initial instinct was to simply say that money isn't the only way to limit leveling and in fact creates more issues when it is.  I had considered simply making leveling take that much longer in general, more practice from theoretical to practical to obtain levels, etc.  The idea of training stamina is brilliant however.  It is both realistic and automatically provides limits on how quickly one can level.  Training with a trainer should mean you spend time practicing your skill WITH the trainer, not him telling you stuff and then you going to apply it on your own which is (as UtM pointed out) still a type of self training. 

And of course I can't do anything but agree wholeheartedly with the Death to Progression Points comment.  I don't know what someone was smoking at the time they were conceived but its completely unrealistic in any sense.  I should be able to train my axe skills without killing 9000000000 rats first, and in fact, killing 9000000000 rats should do nothing other than give me some sort of arm strain hindering my mining and rat killing ability.  It should also have a devastating effect on the rats mental state causing them (hopefully) to question whether respawning is really worth it.  In any case the two are unrelated so killing rats shouldn't be useful as a means of learning other skills.  At most it should be a minor source of income and a chance to practice low level skills involving killing and skinning.

The final system should be simpler than the PP,Trainer,Theoretical,Practical debacle.  Use an ability and your skill improves albeit slowly.  Go spend an hour with a trainer practicing and your skill goes up more quickly.  You might also use a trainer to gain the knowledge or skill of certain techniques (this is realistic as well, I'm certain I could play guitar my whole life and not know some tricks some other guitar players know simply because they never occur to me).

Common, only because there are missing animations and no video explaining that you are sitting in a room while the NPC explains something to you, you are saying they do nothing for the money? Yes, you don't see anything, but you have to have a little imagination here.

I think the fact that the training NPC's give you is called "theoretical" is indicative that it has nothing tangible and is only "here's how you do it".  It also takes only moments depending on how fast you can click a mouse to spend your OOC PP's.

Yes real trainers ALWAYS ask if you have enough progression points from ray slaying to spend on training. Who cares if they are actually nothing at all? He WANTS them </sarcasm>

[Baron Samedi]

   I think the training and prgoression points are fine....Great, in fact. It SHOULD be harder and more expensive to train as you advance in level. It SHOULD take longer and be more expensive to go from level 20 to 25 as it does to go from level 1 to 5.
   What are you all bitching about? You can't advance fast enough? I don't get it...

   The only change I would like to see is the potential for a player to train another, in some form or fashion. Try training yourself in karate or boxing for a year, and then challenge someone who has had a trainer for a year, and see how that works out for you. Just because you can change a light bulb or power outlet in your home doesn't mean you can train yourself to install a breaker panel in a new building.

   Without a trainer to teach you how to do things and HOW NOT to do things, you will never reach any level of proficiency. You an get a gym membership and train your body on your own, but the results will be far less than if you have a trainer there to teach you technique, what exercise program and diet to practice.....in fact, you may very well injure yourself through poor form or technique.

   As far as upper levels being expensive, it SHOULD be expensive! Anyone who has gone to college or put kids through college can tell you how expensive things can be....training in skills is the Planeshift equivalent of higher education. Why would a master swordsmith waste his time training eveyone in Hydlaa without compensation?

[Dajoji]

The problem being that in world where a commoner's salary does not go far above 250 trias a month, having trainers making millions and players spending them every day is not right. The system needs to be reevaluated as a whole. Yes, training should not be easy and it should not happen over-night but that does not mean the current system is perfect neither that there can be other ways to make it happen in a more realistic way.

[Induane]

   I think the training and prgoression points are fine....Great, in fact. It SHOULD be harder and more expensive to train as you advance in level. It SHOULD take longer and be more expensive to go from level 20 to 25 as it does to go from level 1 to 5.
   What are you all bitching about? You can't advance fast enough? I don't get it...

That is not it at all, and your assertion that we're upset because we can't advance fast enough suggests that you didn't read what I wrote at least, nor what others wrote.  I could be wrong and you just misconstrued what was said but I doubt it.  In any case no I don't think we should be able to level faster.  In fact I think you can still level too fast.  The complaint here, or at least what the discussion has evolved into is wholeheartedly different.  The problem is that making it so that training ALWAYS requires money and eventually LOTS of it forces the entire base of the economy to revolve around that.  This is a problem and forces people to spend lots of time making money if they want to advance their character using the game mechanics. 

The problem with Progression Points is that they are really nothing.  They are used as a form of currency to spend on training in conjunction with trias (wtf?) and are gained by killing things.  Sure you get a few mining but not enough to do anything worthwhile.  This forces progression at the moment to revolve around killing creatures for PP's then using that to train mining and then using that money to train other things again in turn.  If you want to be a simple miner you should be able to increase your skills in mining without spending time scrounging for progression points by killing things.

To requote in order to respond to a more specific portion:

reat, in fact. It SHOULD be harder and more expensive to train as you advance in level.

This I agree with to a degree.  As you get higher in level then paying for training should get more expensive and training in general more difficult.  In fact I think its too fast as it is.  What I'm saying is that 1.) You shouldn't HAVE to pay using PP's and Trias to advance a skill.  Practicing it should do the same thing just much slower than if you paid someone to help you train.  2.) You don't need progression points to limit the speed with which people level.  UtM already outlined how it could be done with training stamina which is a great idea and completely realistic.  PlaneShift has goals of making things as In Character as possible so trainers refusing to train you because you haven't got enough OOC Progression Points is lame and stupid and completely OOC and thus flies in the face of their own goals.  The system should (and likely will) go away. This is a good thing.  There are few if any positive arguments in defense of PP's.  Perhaps there are some but I have never heard them.

Without a trainer to teach you how to do things and HOW NOT to do things, you will never reach any level of proficiency. You an get a gym membership and train your body on your own, but the results will be far less than if you have a trainer there to teach you technique, what exercise program and diet to practice.....in fact, you may very well injure yourself through poor form or technique.

You can definitely reach a level of proficiency.  Your progress will be slower true, and carry more risk (injury in your example) but it doesn't mean you can't do it.  I trained up to do a competitive marathon and did well, and I did so without any trainer or gym membership.  This is not an easy task if you have ever tried it.  Throughout the years there have been many upon many upon many master craftsman who have learned their trade on their own.  Near where I live is an older gentleman who makes hand made marbles.  He is well known now and has been featured in many magazines.  He is also completely self taught.  The notion that training is required to reach proficiency is rubbish.  You might go slower but the real key to success in anything is persistence and a will/desire to accomplish something. 

As far as upper levels being expensive, it SHOULD be expensive! Anyone who has gone to college or put kids through college can tell you how expensive things can be....training in skills is the Planeshift equivalent of higher education. Why would a master swordsmith waste his time training eveyone in Hydlaa without compensation?

I still don't see where in any of mine or UtM's comments where any suggestion is made that trainers train people for free!  I won't argue that high level trainers can and should charge well for their services.   Nor have I made such an argument in the past, so I don't know who you are arguing with.  Trainers charging for their service is common sense.

If I'm reading into your comments incorrectly and you were not responding to anything I said then I apologize for overreacting.  It just seemed so strange because the arguments made were against stuff no one was suggesting or at least that I and UtM weren't suggesting.

[Baron Samedi]

   Well, it seemed to me that the overall suggestions were headed toward not needing trainers if you simply perform a task for long enough.
   I agree wholeheartedly that a "miner" should be able to advance in mining skill by mining, and not by killing, and that there is a tremendous imbalance toward killing and it's rewards versus working or crafting for it.

   As a character, I have spent a lot of time killing just to gather the PP's necessary to advance, and a lot of time digging gold to pay for it. I am currently level 27 metallurgy, level 11 mining, and level 12 swordsmith, and believe me, it's expensive to advance!

   On top of all that, I have to spend an hour or so at the anvil just hammering to advance in swordmaking. I have no problem with that, however, or the cost of advancing.

   I guess my thinking was more along the lines of making sure that good craftsmen should be fairly uncommon, and the only way to do that is to make it expensive and require a lot of time and practice.

   I think that, if and when the economy develops, a craftsman will have other sources of income besides wanton slaughter, and a miner should be able to mine and develop without needing to go on a killing spree. I hope so.

  I also think that to maintain the economy without runaway inflation, you need to have a means of desposing of money from the game regularly, since it is generated regularly,and training with NPC's serves that purpose.

  I think the PP system is a pretty good one, and have no objection to it. My only objection is that I would like to see how many PP's and how much money will be required to advance a level before I start "clicking".   

[Induane]

I think the PP system is a pretty good one, and have no objection to it.

What is good or realistic about it?

[Dajoji]

One of the premises is that anyone can learn multiple trades but also be a master at them all. Whatever training system is used, a character should be able to train and max only so many skills. It makes little sense to have a master miner/warrior/healer/mage/craftsman all in one. The number of skills one can master should be determined in character creation. There should be few masters around and spending tons of money and in-game time camping mobs or entering the same command over and over don't have to be the only factor in their scarcity. The character's vocation should be by far more important and it should be possible for them to get both experience and money by following the path they chose.

[Induane]

One of the premises is that anyone can learn multiple trades but also be a master at them all.

That is another problem with the current skill system in PS.  The easiest and most realistic way to counter this imo is a skill depreciation system.  We recognized this could be an issue for our game and thus outlined an explanation here:

http://wiki.peragro.org/index.php/Skills#Skill_Depreciation

Its pretty simple to pull off in a pretty fair manner, people will still be able to maintain high levels in multiple things but maintaining it in too many things would simply be too much time and effort on a constant basis.  The implementation link near the bottom also includes some example code implementation of such a system.

[Baron Samedi]

    Good idea. I like it!

   I may differ on the game time required to lose ability, but that's about it.

   As an aside, I think a small adjustment to swordmaking should be made...I think a player shoould get a lot of XP when the sword kit is combined to actually make a sword, rather than just hammering away at the anvil for a little each time. It would be more fun, and require more mining, and create more swords for other players to use...maybe even encourage a market for iron and coal.
   Such a system would almost eliminate the need to buy weapons from NPC's.

 

 

[Zan]

   I guess my thinking was more along the lines of making sure that good craftsmen should be fairly uncommon, and the only way to do that is to make it expensive and require a lot of time and practice.

Perhaps a more interesting approach would be to make the crafting system very complicated and based on many forms of equipment or resources, the latter which spawn in different areas regularly. Excellent craftsmen are therefor required to obtain the highest quality tools and be supplied with the highest quality resources. I find that a lot more interesting than excellent craftsmen requiring to grind endlessly ... which also means only people with loads of free time can be good.

[Jeraphon]

I think we should just abolish training, tria, and anything else that people don't like.

Who's up for a crystal hunt? 

[ouch]

Who's up for a crystal hunt? 

Gems and emeralds sell for practically nothing... Diamonds are not bad though at 80 tria.

[Induane]

Sounds good.  I miss my crystal routes

[Jonerian]

The easiest and most realistic way to counter this imo is a skill depreciation system.
[...]
http://wiki.peragro.org/index.php/Skills#Skill_Depreciation

Well. This is realistic, but it will be VERY frusttrating for Players. Why should I play a game if it's as frustrating as real life. You spent many hours training a skill and only because you are doing some questing for days or just something different you loose these points again. The 4 hours in the example are WAY to low of a limit for that (but this is not important, because the 4 hours refer to a completely different game..)

Anyways, this could be implemented, but like I said: You should be very careful on the limits. Combined with a mechanism that lets you train very fast until you are at the former point this can be interesting.

But I think another thing would be more important: There are skills that need more practicing and ones that don't. That's fine. but the practical part of all of the skill should be raised a lot, because that is the only thing that has to do with the actual skill at the moment. Spending a day to get money and PP and then getting the practical part for a certain skill over in 10 minutes doesn't seem right. The repair skill is actually the only skill I had to do a lot and a longt time of practising to gain a level. For the other skills the practicing itself wasn't a big deal.

Thinking about PP:
What they do is that: everytime you do something you get XP, like in many other RPGs. The PP are a way to actually use this PP, because (unlike in other games) you don't gain stats just through an overall level or amount of overall XP. If we get rid of PP, then we don't need overall XP points either and everything where you gain XP you should gain a very special mixture of skill-XP or similar.
Think about getting 1 k XP in a quest, which must be changed to gaining some Intelligence or Will. In other situations you would have to think a lot about what kind of XP it is you actually get. Is it purely swordskill-XP you gain if you kill a big monster with a sword? Do you get more Will, if you see your first assembled sword?

So this is why I think the PP are there at the moment.

[Induane]

Perhaps, but it still feels like a stopgap measure to me.

Well. This is realistic, but it will be VERY frusttrating for Players. Why should I play a game if it's as frustrating as real life. You spent many hours training a skill and only because you are doing some questing for days or just something different you loose these points again. The 4 hours in the example are WAY to low of a limit for that (but this is not important, because the 4 hours refer to a completely different game..)

Well thats why its just an example.  Obviously values need to be tried and tested, feedback listened too and balance adjusted accordingly.  I'd personally set it a bit higher myself, let it take a long time to kick in but then drain a little faster.

Anyways, this could be implemented, but like I said: You should be very careful on the limits. Combined with a mechanism that lets you train very fast until you are at the former point this can be interesting.

Definitely I agree that the limits need to be carefully tuned.  Its something that I think is a good measure to implement however getting it right will be hard.  That said I think the effort is worth it.