Playing PlaneShift

[Zan]

So, even though training through killing spawning opponents is a little more enjoying from game mechanics perspective, everyone would now train sparring with another player.

For you maybe, for roleplayers it is without content and makes often no sense at all. We would much rather train with other people and interact with them and in my eyes it doesn't go any faster. Whether you fight with an NPC or a player, you still fight and the time spent waiting for respawns is probably a lot less than the time spent waiting for health recovery.

Heck if I got a choice I'd remove all NPC grinding or seriously downgrade it and make sparring the main form of training. You don't learn much when you're risking your life in a dangerous fight but you learn all the more when you're practicing with likeminded people.

[Nikodemus]

For you maybe, for roleplayers it is without content..

That's why i wrote "from game mechanics perspective" ?
You missed my point and put me outside roleplayer group.   think about it :s   A little less aggression please, reminds me of myself when I was a lot more into playing before, but i think the so wanted game mechanics just wasn't coming and killed most of the will to play.

First, current PP system is so flawed, that adding anything without remaking it will have flaws too.
Few little needed tweaks about ability to defend yourself, near ability to attack more effectively( as is now) and the HP regeneration problem disappears.
Now i don't know if you agree with the rest of my post or not. By one of the points is to avoid alienization of people who want to train along their journey, like me. Because the great majority of people will train using new method, putting all the others inferrior, unable to compete.

NPC training can be IC. NPCs are IC part of the world. But not with the system we have now.

[SerqFeht]

So, even though training through killing spawning opponents is a little more enjoying from game mechanics perspective, everyone would now train sparring with another player.

For you maybe, for roleplayers it is without content and makes often no sense at all. We would much rather train with other people and interact with them and in my eyes it doesn't go any faster. Whether you fight with an NPC or a player, you still fight and the time spent waiting for respawns is probably a lot less than the time spent waiting for health recovery.

Heck if I got a choice I'd remove all NPC grinding or seriously downgrade it and make sparring the main form of training. You don't learn much when you're risking your life in a dangerous fight but you learn all the more when you're practicing with likeminded people.

I disagree with this. It would be very cool if everyone could train in such a fashion, but then everywhere you go, you see people beating on each other. How would the guards feel about this? How would they know sparring from illegal combat? It is a good idea, but there are a lot of holes...

[Prolix]

Sparring does not train you to survive, there is a basic difference between fighting someone out to kill you and someone who is holding back. I admit though that the current system of "the coup de grace" blurs the distinction. There is also a big difference between fighting a mob and fighting a player and inter-player training teaches you "twitchy combat" which, from what I understand, renders the skill system null and void. Perhaps that is a misapprehension on my part as I do not engage in pvp and it has changed since I paid it much attention.

I do wonder how much training your use of the controls has to do with role play and how you can realistically compensate for out of context considerations such as manual dexterity, network lag and whatever. Does a virtuoso pianist have an advantage over a three fingered brick layer? If their character's abilities are identical will their ability to play them match? Maybe we should all become trickle heads, jack the interface directly into our brains and operate at the speed of thought, then we can engage in pure role play.

P.S. hyperbole alert, it is no crime!

[Zan]

I thought we were talking about the ability to train weapon and armor skills by 'sparring' with people, not PvP training? PvP combat has nothing to do with this, people can already train that now that they don't kill eachother automatically anymore and even before they trained in the Death Realm.

As for fighting everywhere, that's illegal .. even if it is for training. Drawing a weapon inside the city for any other reason than self defense is punishable by the guards. So you can only train outside the city limits or in the Arena, without being arrested.

[Prolix]

That is just it, though, if you have people training people by sparring it is exactly the same as PVP training or are you just going to stand still and whack each other to get your practice instead of maneuvering about for advantage? How is that role play and what does it teach?

[Under the moon]

Do you honestly think NPCs are going to 'stand there and take it' forever? No. Eventually, they will run at you. They will dodge. They will try to circle and gain the advantage. They will gang up on you. They will retreat and hide while they heal. Sound familiar? Then training against other players does not sound like such a bad idea after all.

Using NPCs that are trying to kill you to train on is ridiculous on a massive scale in the first place. How many cops do you know that train solely by running out and catching bad guys? How many Boxers get all their experience and training only in matches? How many soldiers are tossed out on the field and told to learn how to fight as they go? How many hunters learn how to shoot by ONLY aiming at things that are trying to kill them? Sure, it can be done, but it is the bass ackwards way to go about it.

The training in ALL RPGs, MMOs or not, is stupid. Going out and fighting is not training. It is the usage of the skills you learned while training in a relatively safe area. It adds to your knowledge, but the bulk of that is learned elsewhere. Such as sparing. Despite what games teach you these days, you can become and expert at killing things -without ever- killing a single thing. Games do not allow for this path. Having to kill things to get good at fighting severely restricts roles you can play. You want to play a fighter, hunter, soldier or gladiator? The only way to do so is to play a bloodthirsty hunter or killer that slays countless foes for profit. I refuse to play that role.

Now, -honing- your skills is another story all together, and only happens out in the field. Then, my friends, mobs beware.

[Zan]

Yanno, when I'm at my Karate training most of the time we really do just stand there and whack eachother to practice. Sometimes we don't and we move around, dodge and all. So how's that roleplay you ask? Well it's sure as heck more realistic than duking it out with something that mechanically wants to kill me over and over unless I kill it.

Moon is right, how can you be a honorable hero .. if you go to the arena every day, draw your sword and start hacking at some gladiators or tefusangs that didn't even look at you wrong?

[Prolix]

No, I do not expect the npcs are always going to be so lame but neither do I expect them to ever be like players. I expect that at one point or another they will become exceptionally powerful due to balancing issues and that that will pass too. I expect that once you have player training it will be massively abused until the proper balance is achieved, just the same as so many other things.

I do not know any cops but I expect that most of the real training they get is before they are put on the street and yes they do learn on the job. They may practice their shooting on the range because they do not have enough excuse to keep up their proficiency on the job. Other aspects are more likely to be practiced in the course of their duties.

Soldier are commonly sent out to die on the job with minimal training, there is a world of difference between war games and actual combat. You cannot compare the amount of training of career soldiers with that of recruits. The best training is always real experience.

I do not agree that you can become an expert at killing things without killing anything certainly not killing people. It may be possible for some people but there is a psychological barrier that must be crossed. Sure I can kill a bug, a fish, rodent or reptile but could I kill a man? I don't want to know. Sparring can only teach you so much, real combat separates the expert from the dead.

Way back in the Jurrasic era when I was taking Judo, the first quarter of the lesson was warm up, the second was drill, the third was a real match for how many pairs time would allow and the last quarter was drill/warmdown. Then from time to time there were tournaments with real matches with unfamiliar opponents. Of course nobody was learning to kill but we were learning to fight.

Ah! Zan you want to be an Honorable Hero! But nobody is perfect and who says you have to go to the arena, you can hunt ulbernauts and those dino-thingies in the cave or whatever else, there are plenty of malevolent critters in the countryside. Anyway the intelligent arena dwellers ought to be ruled by the pvp mechanism anyway. That does not have much to do with training per se, although they do get used for that.

Oh and how can you be an honorable hero if you go around hacking on people who look at you funny? maybe they are just funny looking and cannot help it. If you want realistic role play try to aim for a realistic character. Cookie cutter "good guys and bad guys" just don't seem quite right.

Anyway I am against player training as I was against the introduction system, whatever the developers decide is fine with me. Buddy wanted me to go back to a T4C server he found but that is so '90s. It was kind of fun though.

[Nikodemus]

Can't you all have a little more imagination?
While Prolix was fully right in his latest post, before he said there can be only one way of training, insisting that only NPCs can train us and because of that there may not be training beetwen players.

While there has to be training beetwen players, sparring and simple teaching of technique, accuracy training by shoting into objects, while here  was pointing out this has to have limits as described, so you won't have people who come online only for doing this and after 3 days they are all maxed out. A little imagination there, pshh
All the system has to change, therefore basing ideas on the current system is pointless, it has to be based on some principles, which won't change.  And if the system won't change, it is pointless to suggest changes anyway, coz no matter what you suggest, it will be ooc in the nutshell.

training before real action is important, but as pointed out, the really good soldiers are those who got their experience in action.
If someone needs to be a hero in yliakum, he can go killing rogues, go fighting to stone labiryinths. Because Yliakum is in a state of constant danger/war with what is coming out of the labitynths, people can go there to train themselves to master the art of fighting.
But everyone go to area, because of al the reasons it is the fastest place to train! - in a fixed system this has to change, so be open minded :x

And while training on real opponents/enemies should be faster way of training than sparring, it should hell be more dangerous! As stated, the AI will be better and balancing will make everything harder, but also more challanging.

[Zan]

I have a feeling the two sides are completely talking past eachother here so I'm folding out. I said what I wanted to, ball's in the Dev's court anyway.

[Prolix]

Well, maybe you are not listening. Point-counterpoint is not for everyone. In some ways these discussions are not even for the participants but rather for the developers benefit. They may not always comment always but I think they do try to pay attention to what is said.
Anyway I suppose this musical interlude   may calm things down while making a point.

Same as it ever was.

[Under the moon]

* Under the moon hands Zan a Dev application.

Go ahead. Take the ball.

[Kaerli]

Well...we should be able to spar NPCs, shouldn't we?  It makes no sense at all that we can't!

[Prolix]

As I was saying the npcs in the arena ought to be under the pvp rules but I will suggest this modification to its effect in relation to them: they should require the killing blow to finish them off which would have negative consequences if used. They should not require a /challenge either to attack or be attacked. They should not be lootable even if you do kill them. Then they would be more like sparring partners. Perhaps the pvp room would be as it already is.