Author Topic: Magical dialect  (Read 6497 times)

zaphar

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« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2003, 04:21:19 pm »
if you are going to have a magical dialect a grammar would be essential. The difficult part would be determining the grammar. vocabulary is easy grammer is not. Although it wouldn\'t have to be a complicated grammer just a simple one would do. It would definitely be unique to PS.

Some thoughts on how a magic system like this would be like to play. You could perhaps choose the mana amount you wish to spend through the grammer with minimums for certain actions. Also It might make spell dueling more interesting. Consider this. You square off against that annoying mage from the \"insert enemy guild name here\" The trick to winning is figuring out his weak spot. What has he forgotten to guard against? What spells can spend the least amount of mana on and sneak past his defences. It becomes more of a mind game than a Brute force attack. He may start unleashing his uber death ball from hades attack but while he\'s doing that you quietly let loose your mini iceball with quick cast time and low mana useage because you know he likes fire magic and probably forgot to protect against ice attack. you fire off two before he even notices he lost half his hp while he was trying to cast that ridiculously difficult long cast time fireball spell..  Advantage you.
*Zaphar grins roguishly as he exits the post


Drilixer

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« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2003, 03:37:01 am »
FYI - I\'m sure the magic system is pretty much develloped concept wise - your efforts would much better be used in the spell wishlist thread

SnowWolf

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Yeah...
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2003, 05:43:27 am »
I heard that in another thread somewhere... Still though, this is fun to discuss, even if it isn\'t applied in the next version, or even in the game, just developing the idea is fun [for me at least] :]


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SnowWolf

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« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2003, 02:13:31 am »
Quote
Originally posted by SnowWolf
I heard that in another thread somewhere... Still though, this is fun to discuss, even if it isn\'t applied in the next version, or even in the game, just developing the idea is fun [for me at least] :]


haha admit it SnowWolf you heard it in our guild forums (which are partially open to the public *hint hint*) - what better place to look for magic than in the Arcane Order Forums... the foremost mages guild in all of Yliakum!

*muahahaha*

Sifright

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« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2003, 02:20:14 am »
simply Put OMg have none of you ever played dungeon master on the old systems liek the atrais that had 1 of the best magic systems i have everplayedinsatd of u just casting a book or a skill or a scroll
You clicked on the rune combinations starting with a power rune then moving onto the delivery of the spell whether its casted on your self or shot off or even tranfered into a potion flask then it goes to the element then the state whethere it was air liquid solid smoke etc then move onto the final 2 propetie types
sorry about the spelling but for those of u have played the game you will under stand what i mean for instance in dungeon master to cast fire ball u would click the first power rune  any of them would do altohugh it becoame harder to cast with the highest power
the second rune would be ful making into a fast flying forward spell then the last rune ir would imbue it with the properties of fire then you would just  let the spell fly. there where many spells in dungeon master i personaly found over 60 altohugh there were supose to be many more as for getting this game for pc
good luck lol it probly wouldnt run on pcs now as it would have been a dos game for pc ill try to get u guys some picture of the system im tlaking about but i dont know a good picture host :(

Drilixer

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« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2003, 03:14:19 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Sifright
simply Put OMg have none of you ever played dungeon master on the old systems liek the atrais that had 1 of the best magic systems i have everplayedinsatd of u just casting a book or a skill or a scroll
You clicked on the rune combinations starting with a power rune then moving onto the delivery of the spell whether its casted on your self or shot off or even tranfered into a potion flask then it goes to the element then the state whethere it was air liquid solid smoke etc then move onto the final 2 propetie types
sorry about the spelling but for those of u have played the game you will under stand what i mean for instance in dungeon master to cast fire ball u would click the first power rune  any of them would do altohugh it becoame harder to cast with the highest power
the second rune would be ful making into a fast flying forward spell then the last rune ir would imbue it with the properties of fire then you would just  let the spell fly. there where many spells in dungeon master i personaly found over 60 altohugh there were supose to be many more as for getting this game for pc
good luck lol it probly wouldnt run on pcs now as it would have been a dos game for pc ill try to get u guys some picture of the system im tlaking about but i dont know a good picture host :(


I\'ve played that b4 - and I agree that that would make for a fun system

Sifright

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« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2003, 03:32:15 am »
i dont know how long i spent playing that game but i think i got to like um master wizard  with most of my people and having my fighters at the  craftsman level fighter was a realy fun game  im surrized uve played it how old are  20? any way heres the link http://www.buildyourowncomputer.info/menu/download/games/dm/DM.zip that is the link to the dungeon master gmae it zipped and contains a few extra game dungeons which haveto be puti n maunauly read the insturctions after u zip the game on1 other note @DO NOT@ judge teh game solely on looks the games is diffcult at first but once u get the hang of it is good fun any way happy gaming

Sifright

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« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2003, 02:53:02 pm »
somthing to add to this and seeing edit diddnt wirk wen i tryed to i will post a more deatalied version of what could be used in Ps using a rune system
To start with you would have A rune for each of the 7 ways of magic..
then you would have the power rune the higher the power the more diffcult it is to manage it
Then  you have the state the spell is in solid liquid smoke normal air etc..
then the delviery of the spell  which could cast on your self on as afast flung spell or maybe to cast left even back wards would make for a cool bit of magicking to see a mage spin 3 spells in quick sucseion hitting the guy in froint the guy to  the left of him and the guy sneaking up behind :D then the last properties basics spells wouldnt use the last properties but how ever the more advanced spells would use it to invoke a slight combination of another way to make a particular spell much more powerfull for instance a fire ball does 20 dmg to undead monster mixed with the way of the white that fire balls power triples to 60

Zephyrus

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« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2003, 06:37:54 pm »
The way I see it is that magic is a large area that allows a lot of originality for many game developers. Unfortunately, most developers simply go for the easiest, most tried and tested methods. There have been many approaches. To my mind there are 6 distinct areas, which most developers customise to make their magic system unique. These are; the learning method, the casting method, the pyrotechnic effects (i.e. visuals), actual effects of the spell, the repercussions for the wizard of casting the spell, and finally alternative uses for the spells.

In my opinion the best magic systems are those that allow some level of customisation, i.e. allow you to create/modify spells.


Learning method:

There are several possibilities that have been used and reused. Many can be mixed and matched to allow several different methods of learning spells in one game. Here are most of the methods that come to mind:

1.    The simplest method; when you level up the spell just appears inside your head. One example; Shadow hearts for the PS2.
2.   The dark cloud method (i.e. Ruby the Genie?s method.). You find magical weaponry, in Ruby?s case magical rings these rings can then be customised, combined, and levelled up to make more or less powerful rings. This method sucked.
3. Find a scroll, book, or some other arcane object, memorise it or put it into a spell book. Much like D&D, many games use this method.
4. Watch the spell being performed, much like the creatures in Black and White, the more times you watch/successfully do it the easier it is to cast.
5.    You pay or find an NPC to teach you the spell.
6.    The final fantasy VIII approach. You draw (take) a finite number of spells from some kind of Mana well/spring, or you draw it from an enemy. When you run out of spells you either draw more of them or have none to cast.
7.    The ff7 method (like the dark cloud one, only this has a lot more customisation). You find a magically imbued object like Materia (like a crystal) these Materia have their own experience system and become more powerful the more they are used. It also allows magic to be bought and sold as a commodity, with high-level Materia being highly sort after. Also Materia can be combined to allow a variety of effects (i.e. thunder-Materia mixed with all-Materia casts thunder on all enemies in a specific fight).
8. The ff10 method/not dissimilar to Diablo 2. You have a skill board of some description, you take a path on the skill board, when you activate a specific point on the board you may use that skill, and this includes spells.
9. And finally my favourite method, Morrowind. You buy a spell or find a scroll. However, you learn not only the spell but also the particular effects of the spell. These effects can then be combined, and customised, to make completely new spells. For instance if you know the shock effect and the summon effect, they can be combined to make a spell that will simultaneously shock the target and summon a demon to gnaw on him.



Casting method:

Most games use a very simple method; it is rare to see anything especially original in the casting department. Methods I have seen:

1. The morrowind / final fantasy / nwn method, select spell, click on target. That?s it, no skill involved, unless the target is moving very fast :P .
2.   The same system, but you need to have the material components in your possession.
3. Clicking at specific times, if you click at the most opportune moments it does more damage. See shadow hearts for an example.
4. You can allow the spell to build up and it does more damage, but it takes more time, and you are vulnerable to attack, only works in real-time combat. See septerra core for an example.
5.  Semantics, you type in some arcane command, which triggers the spell. i.e. what this thread is supposed to be about (me going off topic)
6.  Group casting, it can be possible to have a group of mages cast a superspell
7.  The black and white method. You trace a rune with the pointer and it casts the spell. This is the most innovative idea I have personally seen.


Pyrotechnics:

Well this is really more aesthetic than anything else. But good magic effects can be very cool. There is a wide scale; you can have insane amounts of slightly pretentious almost anime effects like the final fantasy games. Or you can have subtler, less impressive effects like Morrowind. And then there is middle ground like Baldur?s gate? Personally I like big explosions.


Effects of the spell:

There are thousands of possibilities. Status changes, areas of effect, damage, polymorphs, enchantments, illusions, etc? Do you limit the maximum power of a mage? Do you have mega spells such as being able to summon armies or demi-gods? Do you categorize magic into different schools (in Planeshift this is a yes)? And then on top of all these questions you have to decide how well people can defend themselves from magic.
I think there is a large scope here to come up with highly original Magic system.


Repercussions:

There have been several different methods:

1.   You can only hold a finite number of spells in your mind at any given time. Every time you cast a spell you lose one of the stockpile. D&D or FF8 use a similar system.
2.   You have mana/magic points, when you cast a spell these go down.
3.  You lose the material components of the spell.
4.    You become fatigued and need to rest.
5. You are unable to cast the spell again for a set amount of time.
6.  Occasionally the spell backfires and discharges at you, or an ally.

I am sure there is more? Usually the more complicated or powerful the spell is, the more repercussions it has and the more severe they are.


Alternative uses:

For instance; in FF8 you could ?junction? your spells with weapons or armour, granting the item with magically properties. For instance if you junction a sword with a sleep spell then every time you hit with the sword there would be a percentage chance of the enemy being sent to sleep. But I believe there is plenty of scope to develop alternative uses to spells than just casting them?


______________________________________


Well that?s it, that?s my analysis of computer game magic systems? Feedback? Ideas? Additions?
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 06:43:39 pm by Zephyrus »

Dureus

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« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2003, 03:17:18 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Badakai
Although this might make it easier, it doesn\'t improve rp\'ing. Instead of ppl saying \"And then I cast the most beatiful super-rainbow attack, blinding and sweeping away those foul beasts into the dark pits they came from\" they now would say \"I cast 13337\"

IMHO that isn\'t fun.


well why not  set the number code to an alaisis (sorry i cant spell) and then instead of \"I cast 13337\" you can set \"13337\" as \"flamus inferno\" so the game engine still acknoleges it as \"13337\" but it is masked as \"flamus inferno\" in the text box
Attention all minions, Attention all minions. Please make your way to the cheese counter on isle 9, thank you.

Drilixer

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« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2003, 12:01:34 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Dureus
Quote
Originally posted by Badakai
Although this might make it easier, it doesn\'t improve rp\'ing. Instead of ppl saying \"And then I cast the most beatiful super-rainbow attack, blinding and sweeping away those foul beasts into the dark pits they came from\" they now would say \"I cast 13337\"

IMHO that isn\'t fun.


well why not  set the number code to an alaisis (sorry i cant spell) and then instead of \"I cast 13337\" you can set \"13337\" as \"flamus inferno\" so the game engine still acknoleges it as \"13337\" but it is masked as \"flamus inferno\" in the text box


*ew* :P

Kixie

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« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2003, 04:37:01 pm »
hehe i have alot of good ideas for this but... im to lazy to type them all.... 8)

Arthureloi

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hi
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2003, 03:41:05 am »
hi
I?ll kill ya, moogie!

Tedulas

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« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2003, 10:09:58 pm »
Well ive got an idea (im a man of many ideas)

y not just mix the spells and put them on the quick bar
u could 1st of all get introduced as to how 2 mix spells
then try to discover some more!

such as
Fire+ice = water

Fire + armor = fire armor

etc

(maybe very vague)
Your just jealous of the voices in my head, they only talk to me!

druke

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« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2003, 11:40:26 pm »
yes but that is rather limited to what you can do with magic. lets see what the decs already hav planned for magic


my how times have changed.....