Fall Damage

[beza1e1]

Originally posted by Thynett Now to link it with the climbing/jumping ability, you just need to say \"fall damage also depends on your acrobatic skills.

Yes, i think Thynetts idea is the most realistic.
Falling speed is independend of weight so the damage you take on impact can only be reduce through agility. Think of cats. An agile character can roll, but this is also prohibited by heavy armor and a big backpack, so this does a difference.

I think the damage should be at a fixed max value and agility reduces this maximum, but armor and inventar (volume not weight!) can increase it although, but not over the fixed max value.

An Elf with no armor and nearly nothing in his inventar (weapons in the hands don\'t count) could fall 10m without damage, what would be a roof top. So a thief may fall from a small building without taking damage. If he falls from a tower he will be almost dead.

There should also be a little pause after impact, where your character stands up. This would prevent the jumping from the walls during a siege. The warrior would be without defence for (lets say) 2 seconds, what decreases their life time probably.

[DooMeeR]

It\'s true that weight doesn\'t make you fall faster, but more weight can lower air resistance effect (if there is more weight in the same volume I mean) but weight (actually it\'s not weight but well) will increase the cinetic energy (dunno the true english words).

Anyway.

I beleive that falling damage, in most games, is just boring. I remember doom where there were no falling damage, it was just more fun.
The only good point with falling damage is that it allows some gameplays limitation such as \"do not jump from the bridge, you need to complete the quest that allow you to use the elevator before you can go down\".
But falling damage for realism is, imo, just annoying. Especially in games, where sometimes it\'s hard to see where you\'re going, whereas in a real world you could see where you\'re going. I don\'t know how to explain this...

I\'m just saying that because everyone seems to think \"falling damage have to be done\" just because it\'s realistic. Well, please make someone die slowly when he is hit by just one arrow (but in the head), that would be very realistic even if that would kill the gameplay as you would die all the time.

[beza1e1]

Sorry DooMeeR, but Planeshift can not be compared to Doom. Doom is about fast action, Planeshift is about role playing.

And falling damage his its sense in sieges, etc

I didn\'t understand your going-sentence, perhaps it holds some truth i didn\'t saw ...

[Axioma]

Yeah, I\'m also still in favor of the faling damage. But i think it should be based on a simple sum of ablities, and not on all those complicated physics things we have been proposing here. It\'s to darn complicated, and no-one would ever notice it, so what\'s the point ? As long as there is fallin damage, and it isn\'t too annoyingly unrealistic, it\'s fiiiiiine by me.

[hook]

another problem i see here ...noobies ...a noobie who doesn\'t know about this would climb some trees, roofs etc. and because (s)he wouldn\'t know how to come down (s)he\'d just jump ...and die ...well, i suppose we wouldn\'t see that player ever again ...i mean to die in a such pathetic way would be really

...maybe we should go for health percentaged damage ...like 3% if you\'re krylan (or whatever those winged guys are called), enkidukai or elf, 5% for humans and 8% for kran and dwarves ...this way a noobie wouldn\'t die, and even a pretty strong player couldn\'t just ignore falling off a cliff ...it\'s also very simple to implement ...well we could add (later maybe) skill- and weight- produced modifiers on this dammage later ...but they shouldn\'t exceed +/-5-10% ...the height modifier should be put in direct HP numbers (so some very skilled/strong players would survive a very high fall) ...but shouldn\'t be too harsh for little heights ...we have to think about very deep pits and high towers from/into which you can fall
...also a cushioned ground would be great ...imagine jumping into bushes or on a tree-top from a tower and surviving - it\'d have a damage modifier -5-20% (or 5-10%) ...you have to think about great heights!!

[PartyBoy]

Originally posted by hook
...maybe we should go for health percentaged damage ...like 3% if you\'re krylan (or whatever those winged guys are called), enkidukai or elf, 5% for humans and 8% for kran and dwarves ...this way a noobie wouldn\'t die, and even a pretty strong player couldn\'t just ignore falling off a cliff ...it\'s also very simple to implement ...well we could add (later maybe) skill- and weight- produced modifiers on this dammage later ...but they shouldn\'t exceed +/-5-10% ...the height modifier should be put in direct HP numbers (so some very skilled/strong players would survive a very high fall) ...but shouldn\'t be too harsh for little heights ...we have to think about very deep pits and high towers from/into which you can fall
...also a cushioned ground would be great ...imagine jumping into bushes or on a tree-top from a tower and surviving - it\'d have a damage modifier -5-20% (or 5-10%) ...you have to think about great heights!!

interesting

i was actyually only talking about the fall from the tower or down to the bottom of the caves not from houses or tree after all i jumped from trees and even my bedroom window when i was a kid and im still here
im talking about GREAT heights
but i do think the % of health thing is interesting

[Axioma]

jep, and its the easy kinda system i was talking about: no physics: just a certain amount of HP per meter let\'s say e.g. 10 HP/meter, do you think this is oo much, too little ? Or will the damage increase exponential ? but that is about as complicated as i would make it

[PartyBoy]

i prefer the % idea that way say off you fall a 100 feet itll do %99 damage to you and take you down 1 hp where as your way nubies wouyld die if they accidently dropped down to the bottom of the caverns

[Thynett]

from paxx (Developer ? Member) on Thieves :

\"Realism is not an argument for anything, related to a game, realism is an argument for a simulation.

Now for engrossing 3D worlds and such, a level of realism is somewhat necessary, but using it as a ?reason? for anything is not even a decent argument?it is an extremely weak one.\"

This being said and agreed by everyone, we don\'t want fall damage because it is realistic, but because it is an excellent limitation to all kind of silly abuses. With falling damages devs would widely reduce the \"what if\" questions...

So get ready it\'s gonna be rather long...



How to rule jumping ?[/b]

First I would like to say that how fast you are falling isn\'t really important. It would be much easier (and wouldn\'t remove much) if you fell at a fixed speed, whatever the height of the fall and the weight of the character.

Second, all the formulas and numbers used here are just illustrations, and will never be included in the game since they don\'t take care of skills limitations, a more perfect influence of your stats...


A/ Basic reference jump : 30 cm high, 1m long.

This jump is definite for a \"virtual\" character :
- character\'s weight = 0
- character\'s \"athletics skill\" = 0
- no backpack nor armour.


B/ Race influence

Depending on your race, a number multiplies the values of the basic reference jump :
elf : 1,5 (so the basic elf reference  jump is 45 cm high and 150 cm long)
kran : 0,5 (so the basic kran reference jump is 15 cm high and 50 cm long)
diaboli : 1,05
enkidukai : 1,7
etc...


C/ Skills and stats influence.

The system is similar to the influence of race. A formula would give a number between 1 (all stats=0 ; athletics = 0) and 10 (max stats)
For instance :
A = 1 + (Athletics + agility + will)/50
(with 1 < A < 10)
You would multiply the basic racial referencer jump stats by this number.
For example, an elf with 200 athletics, 70 agility and 30 will would jump 3,15m high and 10,50m long.

Let\'s call this number your personal naked reference jump.


D/ Weight influence

A formula of the same kind would give a number between 0 and 1
For instance
B = 1 ? weight/strength
You would multiply your personal naked reference jump by this number to know how far tou can jump when carrying your material
For instance, the elf described above, carrying 20 kilos with a strength of 40 would jump 1,57m high and 5,25m long.

By combining all those formulas you get the magic formula that can calculate how far you can jump, paying attention on your skills, your stats, your race, your weight.. And with the same system it is easy to add more parameters...





With such a system, the maximum jump (a naked edikundai with max athletics, agility and will) would jump 5,10 m high and 17m long...
uh that looks enormous... maybe changing numbers, or formulas, would make this better... but anyway you understood how one can easily take all those phenomenon in account, and rapidly make a good way to rule jumping...


I\'ll post tomorrow about how to calculate damages more precisely, I\'m feeling a little tired this evening ^^

[druke]

well i don\'t know if this has been adressed, the math above kinda made me blank out for a sec.

but for the people that are against very large leaps, think about the fantasy books and shows wher epeople really could do that, it really wouldn\'t be a big twink of an ability b/c you\'d have to train an acrobatic skill, not like in morrowind where one jump=1/100 of a skill increase but more like when your jumping b/c you need to jump, for instance the system will only take one jump skill up per minute or so so you couldn\'t sit there and train all day, but those who use jump[ alot would have an advantage.

another thing, in morrowind, if your jump is 100 and you jump and land you don\'t take damage b/c your acrobatic skill also works like (eq terms) a safe fall skill


not aure how far off my original subject i got but thanks for reading

[beza1e1]

I like Thynetts calculations, they are already very useable, but don\'t mix jumping with falling damage

drukes idea as also good to prevent crazy jumping around just for training issues. If you can only get 1 skill point per minute/hour (depending on max number) only people who really use jumping will get good at it.

[Ravenmaster]

Since you guys are all against things being realistic, I suppose you won\'t really care about this, but I\'ll telly ou anyway.  The amount you weigh really does make a difference with how much damage you take when you fall, despite what some of you may believe.  Although it is true that weighing more does not make you fall faster, P=mv (Momentum = mass x velocity) which means that a more massive character falling at the same speed as a less massive character will hit harder and therefore take more damage. Now, since there isn\'t really a stat for weight (or maybe there is and I just don\'t know) you can assume that a character with more hp is bigger and therefore weighs more. This means that the whole percentage system works fine.  The more massive you are, the more hp you have, and the more damage you take from falling.  Now, weight of things you are carrying will add to your weight and do extra raw damage to you.  

Uhh... I just thought of something else.
I think it would be very interesting if you didn\'t always land on your feet.  A clumsy elf carrying twice his weight on his back jumps from the top of a building and lands on his back, taking massive amounts of damage and making himself look like a fool.  The higher your agility and athletics (or whatever), the higher chance of landing on your feet.  Have any of you ever played porasturvat?  It\'s a game where you push a guy down the stairs and try to get lots of points for doing lots of damage to him.  Well, that would be really awesome in an RPG, although not that practical.

[Samoth]

Originally posted by elminster

Originally posted by Samoth
Axioma about 200 years ago they discovered that the rate an objects falls, and thus its damage, is not dependant on the weight of the item.

Really? That is true, but I would like to see what remains of you if I put a 1 TON weight above your head, and make you jump from only 2 meters...

So what you said, is just foolish. The damage is not dependant on fall-speed. It is, but very little. The more important thing is WHAT do you fall into: water will probably not kill you (except from really big heights), but solid rock will... And also, how hard the falling object is - and often what is harder, that is heavier (OFTEN - not always). So, what Axioma said, is true in a way, but he thought that you are smart and already think about, what I needed to explain here

--
Greetings,
E.

Sorry elminster, but I would probably die with a 1 TON weight above my head if I did not jump at all.  You need to do better then that.  Take a remedial physics course and come back with some better ideas.

Until air resistance becomes a factor all things accelerate in freefall at the same rate regardless of weight.

[paxx]

Ok, now that I have gone through the jumping thread?I missed my target and am going to the falling thread?bad joke but anyway.

Falling damage at this point and it will probably be the case in the future is that it is based on velocity. Velocity is increased as you fall till a certain speed caused by air friction?in our game by a speed determined by a programmer.

The damage you take will be dealt in some %HP type of equation. How high before you take any damage?well it probably should be something to do with when do you start an uncontrolled fall? Personally I think it will start around the 10 meter area.

As for the amount of damage taken and the weight you are carrying and any skills that might lessen damage?too early to tell I am sure that there will be some skill, a bit of stats, but weight can get stupid and limiting, and since things can not break your fall (a tent roof in our world is currently as hard as a rock, I think some other forgiveness is possible.  

As for no gravity at the center of the earth?not really true, there is a tiny location where gravity is pulling in all directions equally, but this location is mobile as the mass of earth moves. And the location is literally a pinpoint where an object needs to be centered exactly on it so that all the gravitational forces are on it equally.

Will falling be realistic? Not really but enough for it to be an effective deterrent from jumping off a ledge to get down faster.

[PartyBoy]

Originally posted by paxx
Ok, now that I have gone through the jumping thread?I missed my target and am going to the falling thread?bad joke but anyway.

Falling damage at this point and it will probably be the case in the future is that it is based on velocity. Velocity is increased as you fall till a certain speed caused by air friction?in our game by a speed determined by a programmer.

The damage you take will be dealt in some %HP type of equation. How high before you take any damage?well it probably should be something to do with when do you start an uncontrolled fall? Personally I think it will start around the 10 meter area.

As for the amount of damage taken and the weight you are carrying and any skills that might lessen damage?too early to tell I am sure that there will be some skill, a bit of stats, but weight can get stupid and limiting, and since things can not break your fall (a tent roof in our world is currently as hard as a rock, I think some other forgiveness is possible.  

As for no gravity at the center of the earth?not really true, there is a tiny location where gravity is pulling in all directions equally, but this location is mobile as the mass of earth moves. And the location is literally a pinpoint where an object needs to be centered exactly on it so that all the gravitational forces are on it equally.

Will falling be realistic? Not really but enough for it to be an effective deterrent from jumping off a ledge to get down faster.

ty for clearing that up i like the way its going

thread closed i think