PS SkunkWorks Project 01

[weltall]

The whole development process does not feel very welcoming to casual contributors. On most open source projects you have a development mailing list where you can send patches to. Then they decide if they want to include that patch or not. Usually they do include it but tell you to change some things first, so it better fits their overall design. I think that is the better approach to hook up new developers as someone who has already spend hours developing a patch is more likely to make a few changes to get it accepted. Once one of your patches is accepted you already have some knowledge about the system and are more likely to develop another one.

actually that's what the bugtracker is for (and crystal space uses the same development process. they are actually more strict you must always make a ticket to submit a patch even if the committer is talking with you, then it's commited it and the ticket closed if the patch is appropriate) make a bug with the patch and see if it gets approved obviously it can happen we don't accept it like in any opensource project so doing a patch without asking first is a risk for who does it.

as for the self built clients i repeat that they are allowed if you use the provided revisions in the build guide and taking the code from svn (optimizations done by the compiler are not taken in account as modifications). I don't know who is this tester you are talking about, maybe bovek?

[Getoran]

The whole development process does not feel very welcoming to casual contributors. On most open source projects you have a development mailing list where you can send patches to. Then they decide if they want to include that patch or not. Usually they do include it but tell you to change some things first, so it better fits their overall design. I think that is the better approach to hook up new developers as someone who has already spend hours developing a patch is more likely to make a few changes to get it accepted. Once one of your patches is accepted you already have some knowledge about the system and are more likely to develop another one.

actually that's what the bugtracker is for (and crystal space uses the same development process. they are actually more strict you must always make a ticket to submit a patch even if the committer is talking with you, then it's commited it and the ticket closed if the patch is appropriate) make a bug with the patch and see if it gets approved obviously it can happen we don't accept it like in any opensource project so doing a patch without asking first is a risk for who does it.

The whole problem is less about the bug tracker but the communication process in itself. It does not matter if you finally have to create a bug report to get the patch into the game, but there is no real place to discuss your changes and send your first trys to. The forums are nice but most of the time developers do not participate in the forum threads - you weltall are an exception of this rule. When you post something on a forum you never know if a developer did not read the forums or if just noone did know the answer. On a mailing list you at least know that everyone got your message (even if they might not read it).

An example: In June last year, I thought about getting into PS development. As I didn't want to apply for the team (the recruitement page scared me away), I thought I start with something simple - adding some documentation. Adding documentation is always good because you help other newcomers and you get into the code as you have to read it to write the documentation. So I checked the "requested documents" page on the wiki and started by adding a guide how to add a spell to the database http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/doc/index.php?title=HowtoAddASpellToTheDatabase and did some other database documentation.

To find something to work on where you do not need a complete overview of the whole system, I decided that it might be worth looking into effects, as all magic effects are pretty much ugly and they all look the same. So I added the effects manual to the Wiki to get into effects development: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/doc/index.php?title=EffectsManual. The effects manual was btw not my own work but I moved it from a PDF file into the wiki so I could improve it while experimenting with effects. The effects manual contained lots of images which I wanted to add to the wiki page as well, so I just asked if someone could add image support to the wiki: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=33083.0

Well I didn't get any answer to that simple question which really is demoralizing. Did noone read that question or did noone know the answer? On a mailing list I would have at least known that all the developers received my request. Still they might not read it but chances would have been probably much higher that someone responds. The whole development process seems to lack some central communication hub where absolutely all developers of all departements come together.

I could go on describing my attempts to participate in PS development, but why that never happened is a story for another post/thread.

[Minks]

A good place to contact devs ist #planeshift-build. 

[Getoran]

A good place to contact devs ist #planeshift-build. 

But you can only get in contact with those developers which are online at the same time.

I still would strongly suggest a mailing list to improve communication. Writing a short answer to a problem on a mailing list is also possible at work. Browsing the planeshift forums while at work doesn't look too good. I think that this is also one of the reasons why many developers do not read forums (at least on other projects, as I said weltall is an exception).

[RlyDontKnow]

A good place to contact devs ist #planeshift-build. 

But you can only get in contact with those developers which are online at the same time.

I still would strongly suggest a mailing list to improve communication. Writing a short answer to a problem on a mailing list is also possible at work. Browsing the planeshift forums while at work doesn't look too good. I think that this is also one of the reasons why many developers do not read forums (at least on other projects, as I said weltall is an exception).

tbh: mailing list is usually more overhead and getting a response is a lot slower
at least during UTC daytime there's almost always someone around on IRC (either weltall or me) for engine questions and even if you have issues, you can still leave a PM here on the forum or write an email if you want to

[Getoran]

tbh: mailing list is usually more overhead and getting a response is a lot slower

But people can read it whenever they have time. And if you have a good mail client it is actually much more comfortable then reading the forum or IRC.

at least during UTC daytime there's almost always someone around on IRC (either weltall or me) for engine questions and even if you have issues, you can still leave a PM here on the forum or write an email if you want to

Ok, so the engine developers are available for questions via IRC. But what about my simple question about adding images to the wiki? Where are/were all the other guys? Someone must have created that wiki in the first place.

You see what I mean? It seems there is no central place where all PS developers come together. You can reach some of them on the forums, some of them via IRC and some of them you have to send a PM.

[Aiwendil]

While I think that most of those points are valid and worth discussing they all wouldn't be my first choice of things to change to improve PS.

So what would be your fist change? Or would that escalate the thread as well? 

Not really important anymore as I stopped playing. Most of the things that were important for me were discussed, argued and dismissed already a long time ago. Basically it was about making a clearer separation between the two servers than just "on one you can't have names that refer to RL and have to stay IC". It's more important to attract every kind of players with both servers than giving them a clear purpose.

Oh...and it usually doesn't matter what I post...it's enough that I post to derail a thread. So sorry in advance to Eliseth already in case he must lock his own thread.

[weltall]

you can leave messages on irc with memoserv (and both of us me and rlydontknow have bouncers which will store queries which is even better)
Usually if projects work efficiently through irc the mailing list are usually deserted or dead vice versa if they don't have irc the mailing list work well.
Personally i'm not really inclined to start the n+1 resource about ps we have already a lot...

[Getoran]

you can leave messages on irc with memoserv (and both of us me and rlydontknow have bouncers which will store queries which is even better)

You always talk about rlydontknow and yourself, whereas I'm talking about the whole team. Or are you both the only ones left? Suppose I have a question about how many vertices/triangles are allowed for a spell effect (i.e. something like the arrow). I guess that falls into the graphics department whereas other questions about effects might fall into the engine department.

Usually if projects work efficiently through irc the mailing list are usually deserted or dead vice versa if they don't have irc the mailing list work well.
Personally i'm not really inclined to start the n+1 resource about ps we have already a lot...

I see your point. Just wanted to add my story, to show you guys with what problems newcomers have to struggle when they want to participate in development. It's not that easy to catch the right person if you don't really know who is responsible for what and how you can contact that guy.

[weltall]

you can leave messages on irc with memoserv (and both of us me and rlydontknow have bouncers which will store queries which is even better)

You always talk about rlydontknow and yourself, whereas I'm talking about the whole team. Or are you both the only ones left? Suppose I have a question about how many vertices/triangles are allowed for a spell effect (i.e. something like the arrow). I guess that falls into the graphics department whereas other questions about effects might fall into the engine department.

Usually if projects work efficiently through irc the mailing list are usually deserted or dead vice versa if they don't have irc the mailing list work well.
Personally i'm not really inclined to start the n+1 resource about ps we have already a lot...

I see your point. Just wanted to add my story, to show you guys with what problems newcomers have to struggle when they want to participate in development. It's not that easy to catch the right person if you don't really know who is responsible for what and how you can contact that guy.

for the rest you sorta just need talad. although asking in the main channel will for sure give you an answer directing you to the right person.

[botanic]

WOO no complaints about sound/music  

Just wait for the next update many great changes from Tuux  

@Getoran: there was #planeshift-contributors for awile, and the new dsar is part of what was created there, however it was killed off, if you are interested talk with talad about allowing it again.

[Aiwendil]

So..would it be a big problem to compile a single post from all those hints in here on how to get in contact with the PS team if someone want to contribute something? Would prevent a lot of confusion already.

WOO no complaints about sound/music 

The music is good...so why complain about it. Just after a year it gets a bit boring so I turned it off. The sound effects are still to rare to really judge on them (and also differ a lot in the quality...like the pretty old fire effects and the new thunder). But if you want some complaining ...Putting work in NPC voices at a point when even the NPC texts weren't fixed/final yet was wasted time that could have been spent better.

[botanic]

The music is good...so why complain about it. Just after a year it gets a bit boring so I turned it off. The sound effects are still to rare to really judge on them (and also differ a lot in the quality...like the pretty old fire effects and the new thunder). But if you want some complaining ...Putting work in NPC voices at a point when even the NPC texts weren't fixed/final yet was wasted time that could have been spent better.

ya.... wasn't my call there...

As for sound effects, next update just maby...   

[RlyDontKnow]

The whole development process does not feel very welcoming to casual contributors. On most open source projects you have a development mailing list where you can send patches to. Then they decide if they want to include that patch or not. Usually they do include it but tell you to change some things first, so it better fits their overall design. I think that is the better approach to hook up new developers as someone who has already spend hours developing a patch is more likely to make a few changes to get it accepted. Once one of your patches is accepted you already have some knowledge about the system and are more likely to develop another one.

really, what's the mailing list somewhere else is IRC in our case.
mailing lists are usually rather slow and it's really annoying to give meaningful feedback on those.
hence we usually go for IRC where you can give advices live also getting back whether the other side understood what your issues were, etc.

While I think that most of those points are valid and worth discussing they all wouldn't be my first choice of things to change to improve PS.

So what would be your fist change? Or would that escalate the thread as well? 

at least somewhat knowing AiwendilH - probably

[Getoran]

really, what's the mailing list somewhere else is IRC in our case.
mailing lists are usually rather slow and it's really annoying to give meaningful feedback on those.
hence we usually go for IRC where you can give advices live also getting back whether the other side understood what your issues were, etc.

I see your point and I also agree that IRC has _some_ advantages. However in my personal opinion mailing lists have many more advantages:

• You can answer whenever you have time. Even at work noone minds if you write an e-mail.
• IRC is only a live discussion if you are more or less in the same time zone (online at the same time).
• You can easily post nicely formated code snippets on a mailing list.
• IRC will kick you when posting longer code snippets for flooding.
• Mails allow you to quote single statements and answer to one specific part of a question.
• Multiple discussions at the same time can be followed more easily on a mailing list.
• Mailing lists allow multiple branches of the same discussion. This helps to analyze different aspects of a problem.

And the most important:
Mailing lists usually have a search function, so already answered questions can be retrieved by newcomers.

Additionally, having a mailing list does not mean you have to abandon IRC. A mailing list is just a nice way to ensure, that absolutely every developer receives a message. They don't need to regulary check a forum or some IRC logs, they just check their e-mails, which most people do anyway on a regular basis.

Just my two cents.