some music.

[LordSpyder]

ok i know this was way p on the thread but i got reply to this

Originally posted by BlueScreenJunky
You might love trance, but I think you have to admit you can\'t make a soundtrack with only trance or techno...

YES YOU CAN! Fight Club, the entire sound track was done by the dust brothers. it was amazing, techno the whole way through!

[elminster]

Originally posted by Vengeance
CS has a software renderer, an OpenGL renderer and a new OpenGL renderer under development.  It is this new renderer that has all the shader stuff in it.

I pray it will be ready soon. It looks so cool - I can\'t wait to see what it can do.

--
Greetings,
E.

[BlueScreenJunky]

Originally posted by LordSpyder
ok i know this was way p on the thread but i got reply to this

Originally posted by BlueScreenJunky
You might love trance, but I think you have to admit you can\'t make a soundtrack with only trance or techno...

YES YOU CAN! Fight Club, the entire sound track was done by the dust brothers. it was amazing, techno the whole way through!

Oh ? next time I watch it I\'ll try to pay attention to the soundtrack. Very good movie btw.

And bbum, I downloaded your track... Honestly I didn\'t really like it, but I realize it\'s a first try, and I don\'t really like the genre. I\'m more into stuff like Prodigy, Propellerheads, chemical brothers or FSOL (I don\'t even know if that\'s techno, but that\'s how people around me call it ) so I guess you shouldn\'t be discouraged by my opinion.

[bbum]

elminster, ray-tracing is an effect that can be turned on or off when rendering, its not a type of rendering itself, its not even very usefull with other options available, in my opinion.

and im not sure what that Rasterization based rendering is about but i havent heard of it... maybe it has somthing to do with the programming??

I know about the 2 diffferent types of cut-scene, i refering to when the game leaves out of its game engine and goes to a prerendered movie file.

read what venge and i said, its like the same thing

and my question was \'elminster, do you get that render means it has to be rendered\'

and you said \'I don\'t get this. I am not native english.\'

i was just trying to tell you... but i guess you know all about it now..

---i take that back, i guess it could be considered a type of rendering, but it certainly doesnt decide whether is ingame, or the quality of it, simply a way to make shadows.

[elminster]

Originally posted by bbum
elminster, ray-tracing is an effect that can be turned on or off when rendering, its not a type of rendering itself, its not even very usefull with other options available, in my opinion.

My God...

What you said here, sounds in 3D graphics, like saying \"Metal is made out of wood\" would sound in real world.

You should educate yourself a bit about 3D graphics, as it seems you are at a very low degree. I will show you some sites, where you can begin from the ground, because I don\'t have the time to explain what is ray-tracing (telling yourself a modeler, you should now about it btw).

Head on to http://www.povray.org and you\'ll find some info there.
Here are a few direct links:
http://www.povray.org/documentation/view/4/
http://isc.faqs.org/faqs/graphics/raytrace-faq/part1/section-2.html

However, for advanced people:
http://www.geocities.com/jamisbuck/raytracing.html

Originally posted by bbum
and im not sure what that Rasterization based rendering is about but i havent heard of it... maybe it has somthing to do with the programming??

About rasterization:
Look at this site: http://arturmarques.com/tutorials/opengl/opengl_intro.htm

#4 Rasterization - here are produced frame buffer addresses, refering to bi-dimensional descriptions of primitives. Each fragmented produced goes to the per-fragment operations.

Here is something easier:
http://library.thinkquest.org/C006208/data/multimedia-rendering2.php
I\'ll write here, what you need:
Triangle setup is done by all video accelerators, and this involves the breakdown of each polygon into horizontal strips called spans based on what textures they use. This stage on is also refered to as rasterization. Each one of these spans is then sent individually to the next pipeline stage.

Originally posted by bbum
I know about the 2 diffferent types of cut-scene, i refering to when the game leaves out of its game engine and goes to a prerendered movie file.

read what venge and i said, its like the same thing

Nope. The difference is that you haven\'t said anything meaningful.

I\'ve already said a few times: don\'t write what you are unsure about...

One last note: sentences are usually started with a CAPITAL letter. But I don\'t know if that sais you anything.

--
Greetings,
E.

EDIT:

Originally posted by bbum
---i take that back, i guess it could be considered a type of rendering, but it certainly doesnt decide whether is ingame, or the quality of it, simply a way to make shadows.

Nope. You should really read, what I showed above.

[bbum]

this is what i gathered from those websites

\"What is Ray Tracing?
Ray tracing is a method of generating realistic images by computer, in which the paths of individual rays of light are followed from the viewer to their points of origin. A ray tracer is any program that implements this method. Since ray tracing makes use of the actual physics and mathematics behind light, the images it produces can be strikingly life-like, or \"photo-realistic.\" \"

in other words, its a nice tool to make shadows, (although id disagree) i almost always have ray tracing turned off in my scene, unless im putting shadows in the backround, because there quality is useally pretty low.

and according to that website, Rasterization is part of the process that opengl goes through when processing
data ( like a scene ),not a type of renderer. this process only happens for games, which is what you ment, i guess

im not sure what you ment by my words wernt meaningfull but... this is what i ment

\"Scenes can be pre-rendered or rendered in real-time.\" -venge

\"the kind of computer graphics you see in movies or in video game cut scenes has to be rendered, when your playing a game, its activly rendering while your playing.\" -me
i think thats pretty similar...

i swear to god ray tracing is just another way to make shadows... i dont know what else to say... its the truth

lets see..... im at a very low degree?? your damn right im at a low degree, i dont have any degrees im 15 years old... i dont know much about programming and i might not know how to spell or how to use puncuations and i probly spelled that wrong but i know about maya damnit and i know enough to know that ill have a pretty damn strong portfolio at 16, and thats what counts for me right now

---thought id make a quick demonstration of the effects of ray tracing. www.freewebs.com/bbum/teapot.JPG

[sashok]

wow, you added a shadow how neat

[bbum]

my point exactly, and its not even a good one.

[elminster]

Originally posted by bbum
in other words, its a nice tool to make shadows, (although id disagree) i almost always have ray tracing turned off in my scene, unless im putting shadows in the backround, because there quality is useally pretty low.

\"Ray tracing is a method of generating realistic IMAGES by computer\"[/I]
IMAGES (i.e. pictures on monitor) - not shadows.
Read again your own quote.

Originally posted by bbum
and according to that website, Rasterization is part of the process that opengl goes through when processing
data ( like a scene ),not a type of renderer. this process only happens for games, which is what you ment, i guess

Exactly. That\'s why I said rasterization BASED.

Originally posted by bbum
i swear to god ray tracing is just another way to make shadows... i dont know what else to say... its the truth

NO, it is not. Ray tracing is a METHOD for creating IMAGES. Just read, what you quoted yourself above.

Originally posted by bbum
---thought id make a quick demonstration of the effects of ray tracing. www.freewebs.com/bbum/teapot.JPG

That WHOLE image is RAYTRACED! Every pixel of it is created by the method: called raytracing.
I don\'t know how else to say: raytracing is a METHOD, a CONCEPT, or whatever to create a WHOLE IMAGE. Not ONLY shadows.

HEY, I think I\'ve got it:
In real world, there are different methods for regular image creation: Picasso-like painting, pencil-drawing, painting with tempera, painting with oil, drawing with coloured pencils, printing, etc. -- Lots of METHODS.
You have to imagine RAYTRACING as a METHOD among others. But in the computer world, there are 2, which is the most common: raytracing, and rasterization-BASED (usually accelerated) 3D drawing

I hope you see the difference now.

--
Greetings,
E.

[bbum]

thats not the whole sentence... the whole sentence is :

\"Ray tracing is a method of generating realistic images by computer, in which the paths of individual rays of light are followed from the viewer to their points of origin.\"

heres a quote from the advanced website,  \"ray tracing allows you to create several kinds of effects that are very difficult or even impossible to do with other methods (Foley, 782). These effects include three items common to every ray tracer: reflection, transparency, and shadows.\"

those also happen to be the only 3 options for ray tracing.

im sorry but ray tracing isnt in that first teapot picture.

ray tracing is a tool, i dont care what kind of degree you have, it can be turned on or off freely, every pixel is not ray traced, or every image or whatever...

read those websites...

[elminster]

I give up......

The website: \"Ray tracing is a method...\"
You: \"ray tracing is a tool...\"
(Heaven and Earth)

You are hopeless. Maybe you are too young yet.
Maybe one day, you will understand.

--
Greetings,
E.

[BlueScreenJunky]

swear to god ray tracing is just another way to make shadows...

I might be wrong cause I don\'t know much about ray tracing, but I think it doesn\'t only cast shadows (that would only be projected shadows, like in DooM3 for exemple), it\'s also used to do all the lightning : instead of gouraud, lambert, phong or whatever, you only use ray tracing to determine how each surface will be lighted, which is much more accurate, because they can receive light from the light source, but also from reflections on other objects.
It can also deal with transparency, in real time we use Environment mapping, which is very inaccurate or cube environment mapping, which is better but still can\'t do some things you can do with raytracing. For exemple take a glass sphere : You can see what\'s behind, but it will be kinda distorted, you don\'t need raytracing to do that, cube envmap will do it perfectly. Now put this sphere on your desk, and a light bulb next to it... Can you see that little light spot on your desk ? it\'s smaller and brighter than if the sphere were\'nt there, this you can do only with raytracing.
So raytracing\'s most obvious usage is for shadows, but it\'s not the only one.


Elminster, when you say it\'s a rendering method, do you mean it doesn\'t even use polygons ? I mean since the begining of the demo scene we see those ray traced spheres (used to be prerendered, now it\'s real time) are they like \"perfect spheres\" ? or are they still made of lots of polygons ?
if they are perfect spheres then I agree it\'s a whole \"rendering method\", else it would only be a \"lightning method\".

[elminster]

Thank you BSJ!
I needed some help.

Originally posted by BlueScreenJunky
Elminster, when you say it\'s a rendering method, do you mean it doesn\'t even use polygons ? I mean since the begining of the demo scene we see those ray traced spheres (used to be prerendered, now it\'s real time) are they like \"perfect spheres\" ? or are they still made of lots of polygons ?
if they are perfect spheres then I agree it\'s a whole \"rendering method\", else it would only be a \"lightning method\".

Well. Ray-tracing CAN use polygons. BUT: as far as I know, high-quality ray-tracers (for movies), like POV-RAY uses CSG - Composite Solid Geometry (I hope CSG is the abbrev. of this). It describes (well, what do you know): geometry So, a sphere can be a CSG to be a \"perfect\" sphere, BUT it can also be approximated by polygons. A ray-tracer can handle both.
For high quality images and movies, modelers use curves and patches or whatever. You probably heard about \"bezier-curves\". In the OpenGL, and rasterization based rendering world, these curves are APPROXIMATED by polygons. The description is a curve, but the video card gets polygons. BUT in the case of a ray-tracer, it is not approximated. The ray-tracer gets it as a curve.
Specially, \"spheres\" are the most common geometry in the ray tracing world. These geometrycal building blocks can be added, substracted, etc. For example, to form a bowl, you can use a big sphere, then \"substract\" another one from it, which\'s center is a bit above of the original sphere.

But, it is NOT polygons, what differentiate ray-tracing from rasterization-based methods (i.e. to make it a different \"method\" ) Ray-tracing works ABSOLUTELY differently. Would you like to hear about it? I can write about it, but this post would get too long. Would you like me to write into a post about it? I think I will into the next one.

BTW, there is a project going on: http://www.openrt.de
They are working on a real-time ray-tracer. Check the movies and images. THAT ray-tracer is special: it renders polygons only (not sure about it), to make it faster. BUT, it is still a different method.

I hope I could help, or make things clearer (or foggier ).

--
Greetings,
E.

[bbum]

by perfect circle, or curves, im guessing you guys are refering to nurbs surfaces, mayas ray tracer can render with polygons, nurbs, or subd

bsj, that is from quote from alittle earlier, i found later that its used for shadows, transparency, and reflection.

ray tracing IS NOT IN EVERY IMAGE i dont know what your talkinb about elminster, its obvious ray tracing only deals with light by reading that website.

\"The description is a curve, but the video card gets polygons. BUT in the case of a ray-tracer, it is not approximated. The ray-tracer gets it as a curve\" -elminster

a scene modeled in \'curves\' will NOT work with opengl, trust me i modeled a whole scene once and then it couldnt be used cause i didnt know the difference. it can not just read it in polygons, i dont know where you got that, but a nurbs surface cant just be read as polygons, it has to be created that way, or converted in the 3d program used.

ive been playing with ray tracing since we talked more about it, i found its good for creating shadows that draw out more the farther they get away from the object. (and i dont know any other way to do this) so i guess ray tracing can be kind of helpfull.

but ray tracing is not in every scene, every rendered image, or whatever you were saying, im sorry, it doesnt matter how old i am, the website tells what ray tracing deals with. and what bsj and I are saying are the same....

\"The website: \"Ray tracing is a method...\"
You: \"ray tracing is a tool...\"
(Heaven and Earth)\"

whether its a tool or a method doesnt make a differece, its the same thing isnt it??
thats not the argument, im trying to tell you that ray tracing deals with light, your saying its a whole type of rendering, and that its what you see when you see aything thats not ingame. ( if you check the ealier posts, that is what it was about....)

[PeregrineBF]

actually, everything takes polygons. They just take different numbers, and in different manners. bezier curves use calculus to find the slope of the line at different points, where the rays bounce. this is like having a very large number of very small polys.  Game rendering uses low polygon modelling, where surfaces are approximated with far fewer polys.

\"i guess ray tracing can be kind of helpfull. \"
Kind of? KIND OF? it\'s the only really good way to create a lifelike scene, since it renders by following the reflections of light from true lightsources around the scene to the viewer.
Now, you are probably working with one material per surface. but there are other things. caustics, displacement maps, opacity maps, bump maps, and many other things can combine to create very realistic images. these change the light levels, color, angle, and when well used can be quite important to creating realistic images.  
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/gallery_view.php?photo_id=243&screen=0&cat_id=2&action=images
is a good example.
http://www.splutterfish.com/sf/gallery_index.php?screen=0&action=images&cat_id=2
is the brazil r/s gallery. all are examples of what can be done with raytracing. now compare that to any in game image. still think it\'s just \"kind of\" helpful?
opengl isn\'t a raytracer.
as for raytracers getting curves, NOTHING uses curves. everything approximates with polygons. any raytracer dealing with curves is using calculus to find the slope of a tangent line, then  using the plane it creates at that point to make the reflections. it uses polys, but the user won\'t see that. it also uses a LOT more polys, and they are a LOT smaller.
Raytracing deals with light, but not just shadows. it deals with ambient light, diffuse light, reflection, refraction, internal refraction, highlights, color changes, diffusion maps, bump maps, displacement maps, environment maps, other types of texture maps, all of which combine to change the image and make very realistic scenes. Yes, it deals with light, but so does everything else. after all, images and video are percieved through the EYES, which, surprise surprise, detect light. EVERY rendering deals with light, that should be obvious. most pre rendered images are likely to be raytraced, since that looks better.