The "I'm Bored" Conversation Thread

[Moja Aere]

Daryl is win. Nuff said.

(I was quite surprised when I was told that he does not exist in the comic book from which the series is taken...)

[Taya]

@Taya: Let me stop and address this issue because yet again it has come up even though I thought this was cleared up in the Hydlaa Trading Post thread. You need not waste time ascribing negative motive to my posts. If you need clarification about what I mean then fine, but I would appreciate you not accusing me of dismissing people in each thread I start on RP. If I was dismissive of other people's thoughts I would not put anything on this forum much less bother to write responses to people's thoughts.

When you post like that it feels like you are trying to derail my attempts at trying to find solutions by accusing me of somehow disrespecting others. Do you realize that it is demoralizing to try to put in extra effort to try and find solutions only to have someone accuse you of something negative which is the opposite of what you are trying to do? I don't mind criticism of my reasoning on the matter since that is the whole point for asking others, finding factors you have missed, but can we stop with accusing me of dismissing people. I put a lot of time and effort into considering what other people say and responding thoughtfully to it.

The purpose of this discussion from my end is not a pep talk. I'm not trying to get people worked up, I'm trying to get matters worked out. I prefer to work on the heart of the problem not something like name which is not what causes the problem. The issue of name can be worked out once we have more people participating in a wider amount of social RPs. Right now overall perception of the topic needs to be changed before people will quibble over details.

Also, I fail to see how working on the whole will not encompass the details. I don't have to always focus on the difference between disliking social RP and certain social RP because that is a matter for fine tuning. The problem I am immediately taking on is broader, people avoiding all social RPs that they can easily identify as such or not participating fully in such RPs, and thus will need a broader solution. I think that if we get people used to a variety of social settings, then they can pick and choose on their own which they choose to focus on. However, even a person who hates sitting around the tavern talking can probably be shown a scenario where it is less objectionable to them. So, I would say, first soften people up on the broad scale then slowly work down to as much detail as you can stomach.

You're really missing my point. What I said, if you go back and look, was:

"Maybe we should stop using the term 'social RPs' to describe those particular RPs that some people find boring and start asking WHY people find them boring instead."

And toward this end I tried to work out which specific things within the broader category of social RP cause people to become bored and disinterested, because it is completely and absolutely possible to use this information to turn things around.

But you have a tendency to dismiss anything I suggest with 'it never changes anything' and that kind of attitude is part of what isn't helpful. My opinions and ideas are equally valid to yours, but you really do brush them away without satisfying counterarguments.

And please understand there is a difference between constructive criticism and looking for negative motives. I have said over and over that I support your motives in growing RP opportunities, but you don't seem to hear me when I say this. I also could simply turn all of your criticism here back on you, because you also seem intent to derail my contributions toward the exact same thing that you are looking for. If you don't think what I say matters or that my ideas can help, then by all means, please ignore them instead.

On that note, do you realise it's demoralising to put my view out there as well, only for you to say someone with my view should carry blame for the situation we face with RP in this game? It's also demoralising when I explain the specific type of RP I would like to avoid, and the response from you is that I would be surprised by how many people will react if given a springboard for RP. I made it quite clear that the only ones I feel myself wanting to avoid are the ones who already showed me they won't respond in any way that is meaningful for me. How many times should I try and engage someone, should I try and create something interesting and invest effort and time, before I am justified in deciding I won't continue with them?

I have absolutely no doubt that your intentions are positive, but if you don't want criticism from me stop telling me things I suggest have never worked before like that's a reason not to try again. I'm quite sure in the vast history of PS that others have tried what you are trying as well. And don't tell me things I say are "nice and all but the net result is the same." Because this is dismissive. You might not intend it to be. You might not realise it. But it is.

And the thing about working on the whole of issue is that it's made up of all these tiny pieces. I prefer to break an issue into pieces and work on it that way. The issue tackled as a whole is just too big whereas smaller things are manageable.  This is a text based game and every single word or phrase, no matter how small, can shape and change perceptions. I think many people would want to avoid a player who says "I don't like social RP" whereas "I don't like xxx type of social RP" is a whole different thing. Instead of saying "this person probably isn't going to RP with me" it's saying "this person is open to certain RP" and given that the issue is people not RPing as much as we'd like, I will stand by the fact that it's a very important distinction. It changes what you are broadcasting to others and makes you more approachable by letting them know what RP you might want to join in with and it also makes the one speaking it think about what they do want to be involved in as well.

[Illysia]

Ok, if you find my manner dismissive, then I apologize it is not my intent, but, understand, this is my turn to not go out of my way when I don't see a need. This is not a drum circle, I will not be submitting an engraved affirmation with every post. We are all supposed to be old enough to where we can accept that others may not agree and may not not see the same merit we do. I am not going to tell you that I think it will have loads of effect when I don't think it will. If you thought that the counter argument wasn't satisfying enough then just ask for elaboration. Haven't I proved I will write more explaining why I say something if someone directly asks for it? Of it you just disagree then just disagree.

Just like you don't see the need to struggle with things you don't think will work, neither do I. If you want to work with that problem then by all means do so, but there is a reason I rely on past experience, it actually is a good indicator strangely enough. Many results are consistent even if they are not the one we wish, but if you wish to keep trying by all means, maybe I am wrong and it will work different for you and it might actually be a great success, things change. Do remember, nothing in this thread is binding. No one is enforcing any of this and stopping you from giving your opinion. But no, I will not be going out of my way further try and make it ever more friendly. I've already tried to do so and this isn't Sesame Street. I respect your view but there will be no patting people on the head any more than I normally do.

Also, if you take what I say differently than the way I mean it, I will try to clarify but I will only bother to go so far. For instance, when I said "Being positive is nice and all but the net result is the same." that was an attempt at both acknowledging what you had said and being nice. If I was being dismissive it probably would have been more along the lines of outright telling you to try it like all the other people that tried it and failed. I do not try to use extra words, to be gentle, or to couch words when I really don't want to be bothered. I was actually trying to be nice when I said that. I don't mean any harm but I'm tired of trying to be nice and inclusive only to still have someone get bent out of shape. I just don't have the energy or patience for the struggle like I used to and it does drain quite a bit of energy.

Further, when I said "the person walking away carries responsibility" I was not saying that they have to suffer under some heavy load of blame. Anyone that contributes to the situation does carry some sort of responsibility in how it develops. That does not mean that you have to turn the game into some sort of 9 to 5 job, but  we all play some part in the current situation whether we struggle to do something or not. That's all that means. Not to mention, the part I left out at the time: You'd be surprised, I've seen that the majority of the players are actually capable of taking up RP just fine given the right prompt and it surprised me. I thought there was relatively few. I also found that most of them are actually decent RPers as well, when they try, and that means that they aren't necessarily refusing but they haven't found the situation that they can run with or that interests them enough to where they can figure out what to do. I suspect that very few players are outright refusing and should be blown off. For many it just seems like they may be too scared to misstep while they RP and so they hold back in a lot of places.

The implication of that is that maybe when we walk away there might be something left that we could have done, not that it is some great mandate that we have answer but the issue has not been cut and dry closed. I'm not so much advocating making the game boring for yourself but putting this out there for consideration. Which is why I bothered to say they probably just need a springboard. It's not so much that I am dismissing you, but at times I don't agree and I assumed that you could take disagreement without getting pouty.

However, if my manner is too abrasive, then I'll just refrain from answering your posts and let others discuss it with you. I'll wait to see what you decide. If you wish to continue then I will address the rest of what you say and if not then I just leave it for you to discuss with others.

[Rigwyn]

Speaking of which. Does anyone here follow "The Walking Dead" ?

Daryl is win. Nuff said.

No but seriously at the risk of stealing your thunder I think I know exactly what you're about to get at. My friends often refer to the series as a "soap opera with zombies."  Not exactly accurate but the idea is that a lot of the storyline is based deeply in character social interactions...beneath the surface of OMG IT'S A ZOMBIE SHOOT IT SHOOT IT!

(I gotta say the over abundance of "whose baby is it" in season two kiiiiiinda drove me a little crazy though.)

But in all honesty I still very much enjoy the interactions between the characters for other reasons. Things like the conditions they have to live in that causes stress on their relationships, these "intangible antagonists," can for me take something that would otherwise be totally hollow and a drudgery to endure far more interesting. And, let's face it, far more realistic. A couple doesn't even have to be constantly bickering about something amongst each other (even that would get old after a while, for me even more quickly,) instead, I mean outside opposition, maybe not even having to do with their relations, friend to friend, spouses, or what have you, can add a certain level of depth that would have been very much absent before that. It's the impact of such strenuous conditions from other outside forces that makes such things more entertaining to me personally. (Which is why I constantly create said antagonists if there isn't one from someone else.)

Mearl ( sp?) Was my favorite character. I loved how obnoxious and yet funny he was.

I Do like this story/show on multiple levels. This is what I would love our rp to be like. Its got elements of action, mystery, and horror. The characters are well thought out. The plot is compelling and addictive, and the author is a true sadist. Its this sadism that makes the characters shine. Through all the horrible obstacles that he/she throws at the characters, we see what the characters are made of.  Every tough decision has its consequences too. Nobody gets a free ride, so to speak.

[Illysia]

The characters are well thought out. The plot is compelling and addictive, and the author is a true sadist. Its this sadism that makes the characters shine. Through all the horrible obstacles that he/she throws at the characters, we see what the characters are made of.  Every tough decision has its consequences too. Nobody gets a free ride, so to speak.

You would like the author to put characters through so much. While it is true you can really get at the core of a character with adversity, I hate to see writers put characters through crisis after crisis without let up. I feel bad for the characters, they can't catch a break and the universe really is out to get them.

[Taya]

Illysia dear, I'm not the one asking for child-level conversation or pats on the shoulder, or whatever else you might think. You're the one who seems to feel under attack. I'm just giving you honest responses. 

With that said, two small things to note.

1 - you are not the only one with experience of various things. I've seen things that both support and completely go against what you think. Same with my own ideas. I have seen things that support them, and things that don't. This is why I don't like to dismiss anything that might help a situation on any level at all, no matter how big or how small. I'm not just making empty theories with no experience and no observations to back them up.

2 - Whether you reply to me or not is entirely up to you. My responses to you will always depend on what you say to me in turn. I honestly don't care how 'nice' you are. In fact, I'd rather no niceness at all unless it is completely and absolutely sincere. Forced-niceness isn't 'nice' at all. Just don't go off the other end of the 'nice' scale and toss in insults and we'll get along just fine. 

[Mariana Xiechai]

At the risk of sounding argumentative I think I do know the bridge of what happens when people from different sides of the equation can't get along. Because I tend to role play from both vantages I've seen people, intentionally or not, make the implication that one sort of role play is in fact somehow better than another. This is a vastly incorrect assumption. Another is to say that one or the other is more mature. The fact that you may enjoy a role play involving lots of action sure as hell in no way makes you or your role play any more or less mature than wandering around bantering about recent character couplings or divorces. Likewise, simply because you dislike having direct character opposition as a consistent flow does not necessarily mean your role play is going to be any less full-filling. Tone in text is essentially non-existent, and I think in many cases people might say things (I know I have) that sound as though it's meant in a mean spirited fashion, when it is not. What might be important when commenting on a type of role play you don't necessarily like would be a phrase like, "I prefer," or "I enjoy," rather than specifying either realm as flat or boring. Using those terms instantly makes the other party think someone is disregarding them, likely with little to absolutely zero knowledge of what the role play might actually involve because it's in the opposite sphere of interest, and they haven't even bothered to try.

I would agree with Taya in that because this isn't a verbal discourse, wording can be important. Of course not everyone is going to agree with one another, frankly such a world would probably be a rather boring one. We'd all be the same. Imagine that.

* Mariana Xiechai shudders.

I appreciate as well that Illysia is attempting to do something that is sorely needed: cultivate some more Role Play.

Personally, I think that the best advantage of this thread so far has really been discussing people's specific interests. Knowing likes and dislikes in a more dissected manner allows a person to know what another is comfortable with. That doesn't mean that lovers of plot and action can never enjoy Role Play with those who prefer sociological study-type things or discourse, but it might indicate a sort of give and take in certain areas. Toning down violence a touch, or giving a little more emotion into more "every day" happenings. Of course the aspect, again, is enjoyment, and such bending wouldn't have to be constant. But that simple enough interaction can create ripples, enough that there doesn't have to be select role play 'cliques' because of a difference in interest.

I'll try to provide an example. Take for instance Roled's wedding role play. Roled, from what I understand, wanted it to be more sedate. He wanted to have a situation where there was no killing, violence, et cetera. As he set up the role play and put his effort into it, for that instance, it probably would have been cordial to allow him that, or at the very, very least, to have discussed what was allowed with him. Though this is a bit of IC OOC manipulation, in book, if the people you are role playing with don't end up having fun too, then the experience was a failed one.

In the opposite direction, (I can't really think of a good example for this, somebody feel free to chime in,) trying to shut down a role play that involves violence (negating a situation where someone is trying to force participation) is equally disrespectful. Someone has put time and effort and yes, probably quite a bit of thought into it, and a dissonance of voices speaking against it, merely with the words that they don't like it from an outside perspective, not having participated, is just as disheartening. I've seen it happen in bits and pieces, and I'm sure it's something that must have occurred before this lil nooby came onto the scene.

I have to say there is one restriction I do put on myself. I certainly wouldn't say anyone else would have to, but I feel I don't have the right to critique something too narrowly if I do not know all that which is involved. (I read through Twilight just so I could positively say in my view that it's a crock of ever loving cow sh....) <.<   >.> ANYWAY. To try to label anything as flat without actually looking at it with any resemblance of closeness is to deeply discourage the person who put time and effort into it. Ultimately, I believe it's something that should be avoided. That isn't to say that people cannot make statements upon how they personally believe it could be improved, or how it is affecting them negatively to negotiate a solution, but you mustn't judge a book by its dilapidated leather cover.

[Illysia]

@Taya, consider that this particular branch of the argument did not get going until you once again started claiming dismissal which I did find insulting since I had in fact stopped to consider and bothered to respond. However, I am trying to be reasonable and consider other opinions. At the same time however, I will not be bowing and scraping for approval to post my opinion, I disagree. I considered your opinion and I simply disagree. I admit, part of the irritation is instinctive bracing due to previous experiences with pretty much the exact same scenario on this forum, but at the same time I feel the need to take a stand here. I don't intend to get pushed around, this time, by people missing the point of what I am trying to get at.

Note that in my last post I already allowed for the fact that you may be right so continuing to tell me that you have experiences too is not necessary. I've already allowed for that and, if nothing else, I'm pretty sure that was covered in the Hydlaa Trading Post thread as well. I already apologized and I already explained what my actual intent was. Now that it has been covered I am content to let this part of the conversation die as discussing intent has nothing to do with the actual topics of RP. However, for the love of what's good, can we agree to a standing truce on this dismissal thing? I do not dismiss people, I simply disagree. It wastes valuable brainstorming and collaboration to rehash the exact same issue in every thread.


@Mariana: While wording can be important, I would still say that is a problem for dealing with in game while RPing or once more progress is made. I say it the way I do, social RP is boring, as an acknowledgement of how others have expressed their feelings. All forms of social RP are my bread in butter here, but I'm not so protective of it that I recoil when someone says it's boring, even if it concerns my own RP.

True generalizations have caused trouble, as you say, but at the same time, I think it is more helpful to take it as  people who are against it will present it rather than take it how we view it. After all, we aren't the ones that need to be convinced, those that completely write it off are. But I do think that once those people soften there is definitely room to work on the vocab.

However, to me, the examples given are more about not stopping RP and I think in the case of social RPs the problem is getting people to not stop themselves. Or maybe I should say, get them to relax to that they can blend in. I suppose it is not terribly different from what you are saying, but I am curious to find out what people might find absolutely unbearable on a broad scale and then work to fix it.

For instance, when I do picnics or fishing trips, I can try to add more sensory description about the goings on and the environment in order to make it "come" alive for you sensory types. To me it is unnecessary detail, but I can concede the point that others want it and it is not a great hardship to do it. Although I might have to invest in making settings description books so that I am not trying to do it all on the spot.

However, this does give me an idea. Perhaps what we need is to do some IC/OOC field work. What if we arranged groups of RPers from differing ends of the spectrum to get together and to take part in a group RP with the kind of RP changing. While in the RP, the people that like or favor the RP can take the lead and the other people can give input on what is missing for them. Basically OOCly testing out IC situations and getting feedback in real time.

For instance, I take Rig and Mariana out on a fishing trip. Normally, I'd skip describing the surroundings since you can see them as well as I can, but this time I try to play up the experience by adding in sensory details with my dialogue. Then I get OOC feedback as I am doing it. "No no, you've described the water enough, try talking about the wind in the area." "Ok, now don't forget to describe being sopping wet and struggling to get out of the water after you fell in." and so on. And after getting feedback, I make adjustments and try to find a midpoint between what I am inclined to do and what I need to do for others.

That way, if nothing else, we can learn how to accommodate each other. Maybe form a core of people that will bridge the gaps and train each other on how to do that.

[Rigwyn]

You lost me there. Perhaps I was reading too fast.   

I think I see Taya's point. Sometimes when we complain about the RP or about how newer players RP, it may be insulting to other players. Its something we all ( myself included  ) might want to be sensitive about. Likewise, for those who are sensitive, toughening up a little might help too. There's a balance to be found here between being careful about what's said and in growing a thicker skin.

[Taya]

I'm not pushing you round. You seem to have a sore point with that one specific word 'dismiss' Illysia and to place far too much emphasis on it. I can try and avoid it if it makes it easier to hold a discussion with you, but it's only really further proof that precise wording matters. I'm sorry if it offended you, but if you are going back to what I think, you're attributing far more meaning to it than was there. I don't know where you get the idea I expect you to bow and scrape from though and it does feel a bit like you are simply holding a grudge against me due to conversations elsewhere, or at least 'instinctively bracing' yourself as you termed it. Please try and lose that. There is so much I agree with you about that it's like getting kicked in the shin when every time you seem to home in on the few differences instead.

I don't even care much if you agree with me on things. If you do, great; if you don't, fine. There's a lot I agree with you about but also things I don't. I'm not out to insult you when I don't agree with you though. I might question things. I might challenge your ideas. But this is for discussion and because I don't think anything should be taken as an absolute without holding up to these things. But I want you to understand that I really do agree with a lot of what you say.

And I've never really explained what experience I have or don't have. I have never seen much need for it in the past, but since you often refer to yours it felt that perhaps it was worth noting, if nothing else to reassure you that I am not just out to disagree but am actually basing my thoughts on things I've encountered.

I'm not missing your point. I just feel there are more points as well.

[Illysia]

Ok, Taya, then the issue here is a difference on what the word dismiss means and implies. It is not that I place too much emphasis on it, I had a different definition in mind. The reason I take offense at the because when you say I dismiss you, that to me is you saying that I've completely blown you off and treated your opinion with contempt. Which is the opposite of what I have done something I was pounced on for repeatedly in the past no matter what concession I made with more and more piling on and being increasingly antagonistic I tried more and more to make people feel at at ease. In the end it ran me down horribly which is why I have taken such a hard stand on this. I don't intend to bend like I used to and I certainly don't intend to give the impression to any troll that might pass by that if they just join in they can watch Illy snap and melt down. And yes, at least one of them from the past outright admitted to doing it just to see that. The rest were obviously goading.

In past I indulged and nothing good came of it, so now I am trying to head those problems off at the pass by attempting to put a stop right at the point before everything would typically break down. If you mean nothing by it other than you feel I didn't give you enough time or enough explanation then fine, but this is why I am reacting the way I am.

On the topic of what we agree on, it's not that I am ignoring what we do agree on, there is simply no reason to debate or pick out a lot of things from what we agree on... we already agree on it. The discussion is for where there is some debate as to how to proceed or a blank slate knowledge wise. I'm looking to smooth out knots and tangles, not parts that are already smooth. And I need to hear from people what it is that rubs them raw about such RPs so that those rough edges can be sanded down.

[Rigwyn]

* Rigwyn shoots the "fixing rp in ps" topic in the head!

There... perhaps it will stay dead now.

Logical Fallacies. Ever heard of them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

[Illysia]

Logical Fallacies. Ever heard of them?

Oh sure. Undead Horse Tropes. Ever heard of these?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UndeadHorseTrope

We will find that this undead horse will be beaten into futures far flung.

[Mariana Xiechai]

* Rigwyn shoots the "fixing rp in ps" topic in the head!

There... perhaps it will stay dead now.

* Mariana Xiechai grabs Rigwyn and dances merrily around its corpse.

[Rigwyn]

* Rigwyn dances merrily too as blackened zombie ooze splatters from their feet.

Undead horse trope Seems there's a trope for everything.