Physical Stamina Depletion

[Raxuss]

thank you for the feedback but seriously there is no way you can spar with real steel for 30 minutes not even without chainmail. I know because I've been practicing medieval skirmish with medieval-like equipment.
Even unharmed combat like box cannot last more than a few minutes, same can be said for every other fighting discipline when you actually fight for real.

All medieval battles with anyone carrying a sword lasted minutes? Wow. I guess the Knights Templar really over did it in the heavy armor, fighting in the deserts of Saudi Arabia. Their battles lasted hours.

Probably all died from exhaustion afterward, I'm sure.




Personally, I also think that the physical stamina is good in concept, but needs work in its execution. Nothing so ridiculous as taking every tiny aspect and putting it into the system; just have stamina be used up a lot slower at the base and exponentially faster with whatever armor you are unused to wearing. But always faster with heavy armor than light armor if you are equally skilled with them.

Mental stamina, I'm more on the fence with. If PVP wasn't a thing at all, I'd say to do the same thing to it that I would physical stamina. But powerful spells are supposed to be hard to pull off, if there would be any sense of realism in this.

If PVP was ever used extensively, high-rank mages could just spam the R5 spells and trash just about everything. The low rank spells should be the bread and butter of a mage, with the medium ones used more often the larger your rank (but never as much as the lower ones), with the bigger ones used against a particularly nasty foe or as a finisher.

So, yeah. That changes if PVP is not a large consideration. Who cares about NPCs' feelings; let the mages trash every known monster in existence all at once for all I care.


Just my opinion.

[Volki]

IIRC stamina was introduced because there was no tradeoff for using different armor types.  Having heavier armor drain stamina faster was a way to give people who use LA an edge since they are at such a disadvantage in terms of protection.  It's the most realistic way of doing it.  Maybe the formulas should be tweaked but the basic idea is sound.

I like the idea but the execution was horrible. My max armor skill is HA, but I usually wear a mix between LA and no armor. The fact that the people complaining are the ones the idea was supposed to help should be enough for the developers to change this.

what is that stamina replenishing spell again? maybe it needs to be bumped up a bit... kind of need a masochistic streak to use it, though.
then again you don't really need anything stronger than energy arrow to kill things, sure some critters resist crystal but flying stones is good too.
What do you need realm 5 spells for anyway, killing Guile?

thank you for the feedback but seriously there is no way you can spar with real steel for 30 minutes not even without chainmail. I know because I've been practicing medieval skirmish with medieval-like equipment.
Even unharmed combat like box cannot last more than a few minutes, same can be said for every other fighting discipline when you actually fight for real.

All medieval battles with anyone carrying a sword lasted minutes? Wow. I guess the Knights Templar really over did it in the heavy armor, fighting in the deserts of Saudi Arabia. Their battles lasted hours.

Probably all died from exhaustion afterward, I'm sure.

In reality, they would have fought for much longer than a few minutes. Possibly even 30 minutes. But they would take breaks. There were moments in which both sides had to pull back and rest up.

But seriously, the amount of stamina you gain from doing something almost every day for years is immense. I trained nearly every weekday for an hour, then went home and did further cardio and/or strength training. A few times I passed out playing PS because I had spent so much energy.

Also, Eonwind, I worked my butt off to get that kind of endurance. The fact that my near-max stat character can't surpass her player is pathetic.

[Lumi]

Mental stamina, I'm more on the fence with. If PVP wasn't a thing at all, I'd say to do the same thing to it that I would physical stamina. But powerful spells are supposed to be hard to pull off, if there would be any sense of realism in this.

If PVP was ever used extensively, high-rank mages could just spam the R5 spells and trash just about everything. The low rank spells should be the bread and butter of a mage, with the medium ones used more often the larger your rank (but never as much as the lower ones), with the bigger ones used against a particularly nasty foe or as a finisher.

We cannot work in general here as each way is different. Some are made to be efficient in attack and have an R5 attack spell, other focus on something else. I know that Devs are working on new spell but most of the way don't have a "low" level attack spell. And why should i kill beasts with my R1 new attack spell when i can use an R5 one (or even R4) ? Didn't my char spend hours to train her skills just as a blacksmith would do it or any other ?

I suppose that they added this Mental stamina thing because mages basically don't need to "moove" in combat, even it would do them no good. So to compensate the burden that user of MA or HA undergoes while running with their weapon, mages received a nice gift too.
The problem isn't in the effort of balancing combat, it's maybe in the way it is made.

Magic isn't built like weapon. A mage do now 10x less damage at w/e level then a weapon user. Especially since the introduction of enchanted armor. It is balanced with range some say... I don't know if the balance is really equal here but that's another topic.

Powerfull spell are hard to "pull off" yes but at some point the char worked so hard on its way that i guess he's supposed to have crossed those limits.
Since i don't see any advantages for someone to officialy Master a way (out of nice bracers), maybe the fact to be able to cast correctly his spells could be one ?

And potions have been thought about of course but their imput is ridiculous and is pretty the same as Rinse (a lil bit more), furthermore you need to carry in your pocket 4 stack of them which should drain a bit more your physical stamina in the process 

[Eonwind]

I was talking about without armor. Full protective gear in martial arts (equivalent in PS being melee) is probably leather armor.

NO! Not even close! Modern gear is far lighter or flexible or anyway causing less hindrance than any ancient protective device.

Also, boxing cannot last more than a few minutes? lolwut? Sure, in matches. That's not the extent of what boxers can do, though.

You have no idea the kind of endurance actual fighters have if you think one would tire out in a few minutes.

  you have really no idea, if you think you can fight for longer than a few minutes, boxe rounds last about 3 minutes and then there 1 one minute rest. Fighting sports with no rounds and time to rest don't last more than 3-5 minutes.

All medieval battles with anyone carrying a sword lasted minutes? Wow. I guess the Knights Templar really over did it in the heavy armor, fighting in the deserts of Saudi Arabia. Their battles lasted hours.

Probably all died from exhaustion afterward, I'm sure.

You've just shown you've no idea about the difference of a battle (on a battlefield) and
a duel. While a duel can hardly last a few minutes a battle can last for hours, but don't even start thinking a knight swing his weapon non-stop for hours. That's not even close to reality.


However:

As a dev, all I can say is that there is still discussion going on but no guarantee of changes. It'll probably get more attention after the next release, and hearing more people's opinions would definitely be helpful, be those opinions for or against the way stamina currently works.

As Taya said the coming release is too close and there are way too many things to do. The stamina rules will be revised but they will require a lot more testing time by all the team than we have before the release.

However providing feedback with data like what weapon/realm one was using, the stance/KFactor, what armor type and how long it took before the stamina depleted will be much more helpful than saying things like that:

I totally agree with Volki. And it isnt fun to duel anymore with stamina depletes so quick...
So I guess it would be better to delete all fighting abilities in this game, since people that liked to duel hate the system now. And it doesnt make sense anymore, cause the most people only rp fights nowadays anyway, since it is the sense of this game. And fighting skills that are over 100 can be leveled up only so slow, that it isnt fun anymore...and since the stamina depletes so quick, it is even harder...

[Volki]

I was talking about without armor. Full protective gear in martial arts (equivalent in PS being melee) is probably leather armor.

NO! Not even close! Modern gear is far lighter or flexible or anyway causing less hindrance than any ancient protective device.

It is close. It seems you have no idea what you are talking about. Full body protection, for example in WTF TKD (it is WTF, don't laugh), is extremely limiting. There is very little flexibility. You cannot even bend your torso. As I said before, I tire much faster using full gear than I do with only a simple uniform or gi (completely unarmored).

Also, boxing cannot last more than a few minutes? lolwut? Sure, in matches. That's not the extent of what boxers can do, though.

You have no idea the kind of endurance actual fighters have if you think one would tire out in a few minutes.

  you have really no idea, if you think you can fight for longer than a few minutes, boxe rounds last about 3 minutes and then there 1 one minute rest. Fighting sports with no rounds and time to rest don't last more than 3-5 minutes.

I believe I already stated the issue with boxing matches, because I think your misconception stems from the length of the rounds. When they are not in an official match, those boxers will be practicing nonstop for much longer. I do not want to sound rude, but it's becoming obvious that you have never trained for anything. Re-enactments do not count. You are not required to reach peak physical and mental performance to participate in re-enactments. You are not competing.

And I find it amusing you say "you think you can fight for longer than a few minutes" when I previously stated I was a martial artist. Dunning-Kruger much? Every fighter trains to go for much longer than the time limits set in matches.

Royce Gracie vs Kazushi Sakuraba

Most of this match was (slow) grappling. Non-martial artists tend to believe grappling is easy because they can not actually see the forces involved. It can be very tiring, whether your opponent is bigger or smaller.

Also, when striking, you usually attack within a hundred or so milliseconds after your last attack. There is no 1-to-how-many seconds delay. This is not properly represented in PS. By the tempo set in the game, one could fight for a long time.

[Eonwind]

I think you're just pretending to know about fighting, as seems to have a lot of misconceptions. For what it's worth I've been training (and I still do) both with martial arts (and competitions as well) and medieval swordsplay with both sparring equipment and real steel.
Anyway all this discussion has very few to none importance for the topic because as I said the rules are not a simulation of reality but more a way to achieve a balance between armor/weapons/stances.
Where are the numbers I required?

[Raxuss]

All medieval battles with anyone carrying a sword lasted minutes? Wow. I guess the Knights Templar really over did it in the heavy armor, fighting in the deserts of Saudi Arabia. Their battles lasted hours.

Probably all died from exhaustion afterward, I'm sure.

You've just shown you've no idea about the difference of a battle (on a battlefield) and
a duel. While a duel can hardly last a few minutes a battle can last for hours, but don't even start thinking a knight swing his weapon non-stop for hours. That's not even close to reality.

No, no. The battles lasted hours, so you cannot even begin to say that the sword fighting was only minutes long.

I know full well that you cannot swing a two-handed sword for hours, but I also know full well that such weapons were used for much longer than minutes. Why? Because even with breaks, as Volki pointed out, you would still need men constantly engaging. And it's silly to thing of a battlefield of a thousands of men swinging weapons at each other a dozen times before retreating to rest.

Why? Because battles lasted hours. And with how many men fought at once, you cannot say that they were exhausted in five minutes tops.

Mental stamina, I'm more on the fence with. If PVP wasn't a thing at all, I'd say to do the same thing to it that I would physical stamina. But powerful spells are supposed to be hard to pull off, if there would be any sense of realism in this.

If PVP was ever used extensively, high-rank mages could just spam the R5 spells and trash just about everything. The low rank spells should be the bread and butter of a mage, with the medium ones used more often the larger your rank (but never as much as the lower ones), with the bigger ones used against a particularly nasty foe or as a finisher.

We cannot work in general here as each way is different. Some are made to be efficient in attack and have an R5 attack spell, other focus on something else. I know that Devs are working on new spell but most of the way don't have a "low" level attack spell. And why should i kill beasts with my R1 new attack spell when i can use an R5 one (or even R4) ? Didn't my char spend hours to train her skills just as a blacksmith would do it or any other ?

You stated that  we can't work in general because each way is different, yet you compared blacksmithing and magic?

I agree with the fact that each Way is different and would need to be treated different, but then don't start saying how you should be able to access all your magic because it works the same as a blacksmith.

Each Way would needed to be treated differently, as they should be. However, combat spells should, I believe, generally follow that rule.

And I already said it doesn't matter when it comes to NPCs. Go ahead and kill every monster ever, I don't care. But it would negatively affect PVP if mages could conjure up their most powerful spells on a whim, non-stop.

[Bonifarzia]

Balance of game rules is always tricky... some people want more realism, others want fun with casual play, some want to see "progression" with higher stats, some want to keep things not too hard for new players. Either way, this is just a game, and several aspects of the rules have been much worse earlier. So thanks for your efforts, Eonwind and whoever else is helping out in the rule dpt.

[tman]

And I already said it doesn't matter when it comes to NPCs. Go ahead and kill every monster ever, I don't care. But it would negatively affect PVP if mages could conjure up their most powerful spells on a whim, non-stop.

Just wondering, what makes you say this?  I don't know much about the higher levels of combat skills, but from what I've gathered, spells hit a damage cap relatively early on while melee damage continues to rise.  Which means for higher levels melee gets a much higher DPS than even the most powerful R5 spells.

(I'm not sure if this is true, but it's what I've heard/read.)

[Sulaika]

Lumi: I am completly sure that when we do a PvP in this game it is also a "RP-fight" as we are completly ICly when we do so. <- I agree with that. I really love the mechanics.
 Just the way the system is now, gives the feeling that fighting PvP isn't a good thing. I really love duels PvP.

Eonwind: However providing feedback with data like what weapon/realm one was using, the stance/KFactor, what armor type and how long it took before the stamina depleted will be much more helpful than saying things like that:....

I tried duelling without armor with Cormah, Derator, Kaerli and someone else, dont remember whom else, but so yes after 30 seconds I think you need to rest. Maybe a bit earlier even. So it wasnt that big fun for us. And sorry about those words, but it is frustrating sometimes in Planeshift. I am glad I do enjoy RPing so much again, but I had times, when RL was rough I didnt wanted to rp and just plainly train, duel or level things, but if it is too hard I would quit playing, since I wanna relax in a game and dont wanna be frustrated playing it. But yeah on the other side its a testgame  , so I guess I sometimes forget this.

So back to duelling. We tried several times to duel each other, but somehow it isnt fun anymore. So all stopped on that. I might try again and tell you the times when stamina depletes.

For those of you complaining about having to take breaks during training: You guys know you can buy stamina restoring potions, right?

Okay about that I had a discussion with a rper. I cant drink icly so many potions while fighting. Icly it doesnt make sense. But well you said during training of course. So some people say training is ooc. But for me I never used to seperate my training as ooc. Its IC and if someone comes I cant say I am not here actually. Since someone gave me to think about that the mechanics arent really realistic I think about training Sulaika and saying I am OOC. But actually I dont like that thought.
And since it is a fantasy world we should stop thinking always in our realistic world whats possible.

[LigH]

Games will always have a limited realism. No matter how hard you (all) complain about it.

That's one reason why it is a game, by the way...

[Lumi]

@ Raxus : Oh you took my poor "mechanical" comparison of magic and blacksmith to the letter. I wasn't saying that magic is equal to blacksmith which would be totally silly indeed. I was talking of "mechanic". Mechanically, when a blacksmith start, he will hammer his ingots and loose physical stamina very fast. With the time he will work on his stats and his art and this problem will be nothing but a bad memory (Which is perfectly "balanced" since he worked hard on it).
Therefor if a mage (or a warrior), arrive at the same degree of mastership (stats and art), why would he/she keep on struggling to cast ?

About the pvp. Tests has been made, a mage still does 10x less damage then a warrior. He has the advantage of the range, not of the damage made.

@Eonwind : I wish you good luck in the hard work. I know you guys are working hard to make us all feel good and enjoy the game. And i can tell that what you did with crafting or mobs behaviour for example, is awesome ! More balance is a matter of time and work and i am fully conscient that you are working seriously on it. 
Beside, there IS a problem, it's a fact. I don't think that denying it or just not saying anything would help you, Devs either.
>The problem concern mostly the training of our skills. We cannot train magic anymore with killing mobs for example, the stamina drop streching out the training time x2.
Rinse actually restore around 120 mental stamina, while a good herbal potion go up to around 160. Therefor when you reach a certain level in a way or weapon, those "boosts" are ridiculously low.
If you need number : i am off testing 


@Sulaika : The Champion Cup is still going on ! And Boni is about to re-open YACE (pvp !). Yes the pvp is still possible and still so much fun   I don't know what happened with your friendly duel but so far in pvp, i had no stamina problem seeing how fast paced it is. (Or maybe it's just the "cup" effect lol)
And i train IC aswell.

@LigH : Yep you are completly right ! That's why the word "realism" is flawed and that we better use "balance".

[bloodedIrishman]

If the mechanics of stats and skills were roleplayed, there would be no balance, and roleplay would be trash quality. Thus, we separate the two.

[Raxuss]

And I already said it doesn't matter when it comes to NPCs. Go ahead and kill every monster ever, I don't care. But it would negatively affect PVP if mages could conjure up their most powerful spells on a whim, non-stop.

Just wondering, what makes you say this?  I don't know much about the higher levels of combat skills, but from what I've gathered, spells hit a damage cap relatively early on while melee damage continues to rise.  Which means for higher levels melee gets a much higher DPS than even the most powerful R5 spells.

(I'm not sure if this is true, but it's what I've heard/read.)

I say that for the same reason you said that; from what I've heard/read.

I was under the impression that magic was superior to melee in terms of Damage Per Second. Because that's what it's like in every game I've ever played and what it appeared to be like in my short time playing PS so far. I did not know that magic was actually inferior. By a lot, apparently.

Which explains Lumi's answer about PVP. It seems as if mages are not strong, but rather are very weak. This seems rather backwards, but that's a different issue.

@ Raxus : Oh you took my poor "mechanical" comparison of magic and blacksmith to the letter. I wasn't saying that magic is equal to blacksmith which would be totally silly indeed. I was talking of "mechanic". Mechanically, when a blacksmith start, he will hammer his ingots and loose physical stamina very fast. With the time he will work on his stats and his art and this problem will be nothing but a bad memory (Which is perfectly "balanced" since he worked hard on it).
Therefor if a mage (or a warrior), arrive at the same degree of mastership (stats and art), why would he/she keep on struggling to cast ?

I see. And I'll explain why:

From what I understood, magic is powerful stuff. Obviously not in PS like I thought, but lemme give you my reasoning before hand.

Magic was supposed to be damage. Lots of it. Mages had low health and strength and made up for it in damage. 'Glass cannons', basically. They could deal a bunch of damage, but could take little before being wiped out. That is why I was afraid for PVP; the mages didn't have to worry about warriors because the warriors would be toast before they even got close to the mages.

But to balance this, mages had to use mana quickly and get it back slow; PS does this (at least on the outset where I'm at), so I thought that magic was some powerful stuff that really took it out of the character to use. As you max rank your stats, your mana should be huge, but then the mage was still limited by the mental stamina; a balancing factor for a really damaging play style.

Against NPCs? No one cares. Against other players? A look to balance is in order.

Mages deal the damage while warriors take the damage. Usually in tough armor, they could take physical punishment for much longer than other fighting styles. Except they were susceptible to magic, because armor doesn't help against fire.


After you guys told me that mages are the weakest link, I figure I need to make a 180. If warriors out-match mages, then mages need those strong spells to keep up. R1 spells obviously won't cut it is warriors are 10x stronger than mages at max level, as not even R5 spells will at that point.


So, yeah. If mages aren't even powerful, then PVP has a completely different problem, in my eyes. But that's another topic for another time. I'm learning new things about PS every day.

More mental stamina souns just fine, with that straightened out; regardless of PVP or not.

[novacadian]

We should be able to leap over the city walls with little effort if we carried nothing.     

If it weren't for the kryponite heels.