Author Topic: Running out of steam here...  (Read 936 times)

Illysia

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2016, 04:15:47 pm »
You may not agree with the perspective, but it is not inherently judgmental or wrong to say the game is struggling and needs help. That's called honesty. It may not always be wanted but sometimes it's needed. I don't think that the game is beyond hope dead. However, Rigwyn's basic point is valid. If you have to lie about whether or not it's dead, you've undermined your own efforts.

Dilihin

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2016, 04:26:35 pm »
Well its not dead nor alive imo. If death means there's no realistically nobody to play with , then its alive. Even if it might look dead for you who have played it when there was 200+ players, remember there is those who have used to play with 30- players. It's suprisingly playable with 50- players.
 And as newtons first law tells us, if the amount of the players starts growing, it keeps growing untill something drops it (so you just have to figure out how to start growing it :P )

Illysia

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2016, 04:55:24 pm »
Let me get this clear beyond a shadow of a doubt so I don't misconstrue. Do you honestly think PS is OK?

When I say dead I mean it can't sustain easily found groups of active RPers across several timezones. We covered earlier in the thread that there are people online, so it's not a commentary on whether or not there are RPers in the game.

I understand that it's hard for newer players to understand where older players come from. We've been newbies before, but you haven't been oldbies before. But I'm sorry, I'm just not going to accept mediocrity from the game because you are too new to want more from it. I don't mean any harm but that seems to always be the root of new players saying just take it. It always sounds like, "I don't want more form this so you can't want more from this."

(so you just have to figure out how to start growing it :P )

That has been the purpose of reviving the forum and all the recent if you hadn't noticed. You all had two years of me saying absolutely nothing on any topic and only saying something a few sporadic months each year before that. If what was happening in game in the intervening years was going to work, it would have by now. The player count wouldn't have dropped lower. It's not that nothing is being done, but it's obviously not enough. So, let's try something else too.

Does it really have to drop to a single digit peak before we can stop having people be offended when other people state their struggles while the content are around?

Dilihin

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2016, 05:06:38 pm »
Let me get this clear beyond a shadow of a doubt so I don't misconstrue. Do you honestly think PS is OK?

Well first, there is not objective OK but to put it short,no, i dont think its ok but i dont find it extremely bad either.

Also i would like to say there is no need to dig so deep so deep hole between new players and old players. Sometimes its seems like the case is so. Anyhow, if you dont enjoy the game as it is, i dont see why to continue to play, nobody is forcing old players to play if they dont get enough fun of it anymore.(and yes, i can totally see it loses its novelty over time but thats obvious and signals you need to do something else inbetween aswell.)

And yes, I can see that the intention was to get forum more active (which has been clearly a success, thanks for that).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 05:08:58 pm by Dilihin »

Illysia

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2016, 05:43:59 pm »
You are dancing around the question, however that's a close enough answer.

To say there is a difference of opinion and experience is a statement of fact. It is an objective fact that not everyone experiences the same things in game. There is no reason to lie and and say that different experiences will produce the exact same feelings about this game. It is also an objective fact to state that Oldbies have experienced different things from newer players. Therefore, to say there is a difference between the experiences of olbies and newbies is an objective fact.

If newer players take that personally then there is little that can be done about that. Saying oldbie and newbie is not inherently an Us vs Them conflict. It merely states a very real difference in experience. If it's the word newbie that gets you upset then fine. I'll use a different term. However, if I mention the Dwarvesbane vs. Dwarven Star War, you probably have no clue what I am talking about because you are a newer player. There is a difference in experience.

This thread not meant to make people feel bad about enjoying the game, it's meant to get people to help broaden the appeal. It is not a condemnation to say that current standards are hard or impossible to accept if you'd been around for better. It's just a fact.

But to answer your question, the reason old players hang around is because they used to have fun. They want to have fun in that context again. Not everything in life is meant to be discarded as soon as you no longer like it as much. Most of the oldbies that bother to post to the forums have very fond memories about the game and they aren't  ready to give up on it fully even in hard times.

What i'd like to know now though is how is it considered not constructive to ask people to band together but it is considered constructive to tell people to go away if they don't like it? One method is outright telling people to leave with an already low player count.

Dilihin

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2016, 06:17:00 pm »
I cant see how im "dancing" around question, please clear this out.

And while oldbies might seen more, it doesn't make newbies opinion less valuable, as they might be more up to date whats going on, more active etc. Making us vs them is problem, better to just think everyone as player( no harm intended, just giving different point of view, you are atleast somewhat right). Also its not that blanc why people hang around forums i would say.

And no, its not considered unconstructive to ask players band together but constructive to tell them go away, It's very constructive to suggest people doing cooperation and to discuss things, also its constructive to point out that if someones absolutely doesnt enjoy doing thing x at all, he/she might want to stop and think if he/she should stop doing it.

Thoss

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2016, 06:26:20 pm »
I agree, there is RP to be had... had a good little RP the other night and another one today from the GMs (had to bail cause my son decided that was the perfect time to play Star Wars Operation...  ::| )

I am basically just pushing for more and I see Jessamine as one of the ones that is also trying to make that happen, so we are on the same team there!

Thoss Yonbur/Aarnir Irety/Oslorod Krolar/Myno Eljin

Illysia

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2016, 06:33:38 pm »
Ultimately, you are right Thoss. We actually have the same goal.

Dilihin

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2016, 06:35:39 pm »
Agreed, thought its hard to be any help when you are too busy, what a shame thought...

Illysia

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2016, 06:48:22 pm »
True. It would help if the people in the game used a hub outside the game, so that they can coordinate and encourage each other to RP even when they can't be in game. That's the beauty of the forums but most people never use it. Shame, this forum is nothing like most game forums right now.

Jessamine

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2016, 09:24:47 pm »
Okay gosh lots of reply's...and No no no no I did not mean to upset anyone or come off as judgmental at all, I'm not always so good with expressing my thoughts correctly. my main point I was trying to make I think is that I'm tired of everyone complaining and saying the game is going no where and it sucks all the time, every one is always so negative, I wish they'd spend a little less time bashing the game and just doing what they enjoy in it and I feel that the happy attitudes will spread and encourage others to return and new players to stay around.

And I did not mean for it to sound like if you don't like it leave...what I meant was no one is forcing you to do any one thing there are so many things you can do in the game so if you come across something that's not your forte you don't have to tear it down and complain about it and discourage others, just do what to you do enjoy doing, crafting, looting, leveling, PvP, questing, RP, hunting, whatever.
 
And I agree fully with you I did not mean to say I was against forums or out of game sites and such just that's I've met several people now who are anti-forums or want to stay fully IC. I really did facepalm when I ran into a player who wanted to remain FULLY 100% IC at all times and get all his info for anything in game only. There's just not enough people or information in game for that right now.

I was playing PS around the time you mentioned. And while yes there were more char's online all the time a good percentage of those were all mining alts and bots whether or not we want to admit it.

I also think that numbers are not necessarily all it's cracked up to be, sometimes quality is better than quantity and right now most of the players I see here are more mature and relaxed.  If you keep logging on the same basic times, other people are going to be doing that as well and you RP and get to know those online the same time as you are and you meet their friends and then their friends friends and new players start and meet someone and they join your group and it will start to grow once again. There is nothing wrong with a small player base, I'm sure it will flux many times more. I think the main issue RP games face is that they suck you in and require a lot of time and some people just can't be at their computers all day long. And with a game being in development and changing all the time with so few active devs most of whom as I understand it are part time devs, with family's, kids, jobs etc whom as we all tend to forget are volunteering their time and their work. So we lost a lot of players to other high end games or more advanced ones, or because this game just got too time consuming for any one person to handle.

And I also did not mean to make it sound like I'm the only one pushing for the market every week, there are several players who are helping to encourage and push it. I was just using the market as an example because someone stated we need a weekly event to get people to gather and no one wants to be responsible for being in charge of doing that and having all that stress, well it's already there, set up and a very simple easy thing to do and make when you can. The main problem people face with it times, some us are headed to bed as others are just finishing dinner or some are waking up as some are headed to bed, you're not going to be able to pick a time that works for all the players, so just do what you can when you can and it will spread.

Thoss

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2016, 10:05:39 pm »
 
...facepalm when I ran into a player who wanted to remain FULLY 100% IC at all times and get all his info for anything in game only.

I have to admit, I still have a little of this dream tucked away deep inside... I think it still hinders my enjoyment of current in-game reality... so I am trying to break through that a little more.

Quote
a good percentage of those were all mining alts and bots whether or not we want to admit it.

truth in that!

« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 10:07:25 pm by Thoss »
Thoss Yonbur/Aarnir Irety/Oslorod Krolar/Myno Eljin

Illysia

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2016, 12:01:48 am »
Alright, if it's just a misunderstanding then no harm no foul.

Everybody brace yourselves, it's an old school Illy explanation incoming....
_____________________________

Yes, complaints can be discouraging, however, they are an immutable fact. People need a voice and they especially need it when they are not having fun. I promise that the negativity that you find irksome has been irking the person that said the negative thing for far longer than it's been irking you. That's why they are saying something. They feel the same way about it, but they can't just walk away from the feeling.

Complaining a sign that there's a ticking time bomb waiting to go off. It's usually the last warning before people just give up entirely. The reason people hang on is because there is something they loved about the thing that is now irksome. So, everybody loses when someone gives up rather than drifts away. Further, losing people is super bad when you aren't getting new people at the same rate. PS does not get enough new people to be picky but I'll get to the numbers issue in a moment. To cope with complaints, one has to learn how to either address the complaint, learn how to walk away from it or ignore it, or learn how to take it on with thick skin. There will never be enough positivity to eliminate complaints. The next best option is management.

Actually, your post was in essence a good idea though maybe not executed the way you intended. Trying to help people find a solution may help them overcome the thing that makes them complain. It is a good idea.
__________________

For example, for those of you who are struggling to find RP. I waited until I saw Jessamine online today and logged in to see how it goes asking for RP in gossip. It normally doesn't work but I tried it anyway. I logged in around 00:30 (12:30 A.M.) GMT. https://greenwichmeantime.com/gmt-converter/ and Jessamine, Fesara, and Loxxi responded. It did work this time and I even found RP aside from the group Jessamine was RPing with. I can't say those people are always on about this time, but if you can make that time on Saturday/Sunday, give it a try. It wasn't my most favorite kind of RP, but it was way better than "How's You Mother RP", and it's leaps and bounds better than the pitiful affair that had been going on the last several years.
___________________

Notice, how I make a suggestion but I'm not taking a potshot at someone for complaining, though I am acknowledging complaints. Whether or not people have a legitimate reason to complain, complaining about the complaining is usually going to shift the attention away from your valid point and put it onto a controversy, possibly an imagined controversy at that. This is not good. Once the flame war starts, you can usually kiss a constructive ending goodbye. This is why most game forums are absolutely toxic. PS at it's worse has never devolved to death threats, as far as I've ever seen, but it's happened elsewhere. If you have a suggestion, make a suggestion. If you complain about a complaint, hit the deck because there will usually be a rebuttal.

Another side issue, just to toss this out there, is that a complaint isn't inherently a personal attack, so there isn't necessarily a reason to take it personal. Yes negativity can be a bummer but so can getting shot down when you are complaining to make a point. Always remember that your actions can have the exact same effect on the other side of the coin. No one's reaction is inherently more right even when there is negativity involved. However, it is admittedly more helpful to stick to the topic or issue rather than give a laundry list of every grievance ever held.

Now here's the thing about numbers. RPers are always a small percentage of any player base, even in a RP game. While quality is good, you simply need quantity to give you a high enough chance to get the people you need. It's like trying to get 1000 red skittles. How many bags will you have to buy just to get enough red ones? Those bots may not have been RPing but they were representative of people still caring enough about the game to bot it. That's the kind of interest you need to get a large enough flow of players. You really need lots of incoming players, people caring enough to stay, and and overall higher numbers just to find those that will really embrace RP. This is also how you overcome not having time, I might add. More people means more people who are available at a given time and more chances to get someone with a lot of time to invest.

Now I concede that time is a very real constraint, but RP doesn't actually require loads of time at once, especially if one learns to be flexible and break it up when they can't finish in one sitting. It's way easier to do here than in other places. We have full chat logging here. You don't know how hard it is to log RPs and to break them up until you have to take 50 screenshots of a tiny chat window to try to catch everything before the game eats it. :'( Never again.... However, you will need to have clear in mind what you want from RP so you can pursue it efficiently in the time given.

For me, I like my RPs to be character studies not events or specific incidents. I will zero in a character's backstory or personality because I want to see what makes them tick. I want to see interesting personalities bouncing off of each other. I can do other RPs but this is what I really want to see to enjoy the RP. This is what makes me RP. I realistically accept that I won't always get that, and some attempts won't go anywhere, but I can at least make the most of my RPs by going straight for what I want.

*takes a breath* Almost done, I promise. While doing your best is great and has helped. It really isn't enough without a goal of forming a community. People have been trying to do it haphazardly for years. Haphazard attempts have not been staunching the flow from the game. There really needs to be a community to glomp on to. Yes, that may take time because people can't commit for now, but believe me, there's no way around this community thing. Community will always be necessary to build up the numbers. Remember, PS is like a pearl. It's first gotta have something to build around however small.

This is why haphazardly catching people is still important but also why the forum is important. The forum allows people to connect and stay in the flow even when they can't be in game.

*gives out and goes to bed*

Jessamine

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2016, 04:53:49 am »
Well said. Thanks for explaining all that through. You make a lot of very good points.  I'll do what I can but she's right no one person can do it alone (And certainly not me haha!). For me i just enjoy encouraging rp, but I'm not really all that good at it, I still have a lot to learn.



And I knew that was you when you said that in gossip ;D!  I was like crap of course the one time I'm stuck in a serious RP that i can't pull myself away from! But hey coming down with the Demorian measles was a good excuse for Jess not to market today(I won't be here today)--and I've been dying to rp at the hospital i love the set up and creativity that went into making it and I wanted to encourage the several people who RP healers and give them someone to treat, they are all so creative and did a great job! I'm very happy you were able to run into some people and rp as well.

 And yes Saturdays seem to be a good time I've usually done my dinner events at 1800gmt because its early afternoon USA and evening for Europe, so that seems to be a good time to catch people around as well, once you hit ehh about 22-2300gmt you lose 1/2 the community to sleep.

Again thank you for your efforts.

Illysia

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Re: Running out of steam here...
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2016, 10:15:16 am »
No problem and thank you. It was alright that you couldn't come to me, I couldn't come to you either. I believe in RPing with who you find if you don't have prearranged plans. I hate just abandoning people for another RP. It's one of my anti-clique habits.

However, there are good efforts going on in game, it just needs more visibility and support. As far as I can tell, there are several newer players trying to do some good. They just need support of people who know how to build up a community. So, I will try to do what I can to help.