Missing Skill-Boosting Quests

[Mairon]

Thank the Gods you did it. These were just the quests I was looking for.

[Migg]

Bringing this thread back from the dead (just call me Dakru  ) to ask this simple question:
Is it possible to differentiate between similar items in a quest when testing what the player needs to have with them? i.e. can I require they have a "Basic Lute score by Zakena", as opposed to just any "Music Score", which would include an empty music score bought from Jayose?

[Uadjet]

I'm not entirely sure myself, but if the item in question is in the item database rather than created by a player the game absolutely can tell the difference between it and any other item. I suspect that's the case with the recently released music scores.

[Venalan]

There are specifics which apply to all creative items which make them harder to use in quests. First, NPC's can't give them out. NPC gives don't have the same instancing support buying items does. I also don't know how NPC's will behave if you try and give one to them. When you buy music score they are all renamed 'of name' this new item wont be recognised as correct as it's name does not match. So at the least you will have to rename the items, I will have to test that it works even once you've done that. Even if it does work, I would not make players buy and then manually rename items as it would be a hidden non intuitive requirement. I would completely avoid it.

Venalan.

[Migg]

Thanks for the replies. As Uadjet correctly guessed, what I am trying is to figure if the player has an instrument (Lyra, lute, Drum, Tamborine) and the corresponding music sheet (e.g. Basic Lute score by Zakena) before they can start practicing with said instrument (Lute).
Of course I now find there might be a fly in the ointment: If my notes are correct, there does not appear to be an NPC selling the "Basic Lyra score by Zakena" 

[Venalan]

NPCs sell all of the music scores which were donated to me.

[Migg]

NPCs sell all of the music scores which were donated to me.

Never implied they didn't, it's just that I couldn't find one for Lyra. My basic idea for a starter quest was having the NPC ask the player their preferred instrument, then have them produce it along with the corresponding "Basic <YourFavoriteInstrumentHere> Score by Zakena". That can't work if there is no score for Lyra. Or did I miss it?

Also, isn't it possible for a quest to just test the player has the required items (say, "Lute" and "Basic Lute Score by Zakena") with them when they talk to the NPC?

[Migg]

OK, I decided I should stop talking and start working, so I am inching my way towards writing my first quest, an introductory quest to music learning. Then I realized there is already an introduction to music learning, and you even get your first skill level from it, but I decided i should still keep along, and make another quest that will grant an additional two skill levels, not be repeatable, and suggest ways to further progress with the art. I have a couple of requirements I don't really know if I can successfully implement the way I want them to be (the "score by Zakena" issues I mentioned earlier) but I'll leave that for when it is done.

But I digress. I wonder what would be a good place to talk about it, since whatever I say is a spoiler. I think I have a good understanding of how to write it (Venalan has posted some very helpful material, I even managed to get my editor to syntax-highlight PS quest text using it ). I just want to discuss the general plot, there is a point that ails me and I would appreciate a more authoritative opinion.

[Migg]

Another question I hope to get an answer to: Suppose we have this quest with a longish intro, because the first step has a proximity trigger and it is step 2 that asks the player if they want the quest, step 3 that explains what the NPC wants, step 4 to handle the answer, and step 5 onwards to continue the quest, like this:

Code: [Select]

#Step 1
P: !shortrange
NPC: Ah, here comes a $playerrace, I will ask for $his help! [NPC puts on a bright smile and turns to you expectantly].

...

#Step 2
P: whatyouwant.
Menu: Did you need something?
NPC: Hello dear $sir, I have been looking for a valiant $playerrace to help me with some quest. Are you willing to help?
Complete Some Quest step 2.

... NoRepeat

#Step 3
Require completion of Some Quest step 2.
P: whatquest.
Menu: What kind of quest?
NPC: I need to get xyz from SomeRandomLocation, but I can't leave my post. Can you go and get one for me?
Complete Some Quest step 3.

... NoRepeat

#Step 4
Require completion of Some Quest step 3.
P: nohelp. P: yeshelp.
Menu: No, I don't have time for that. Menu: Yes, I will go right away.
NPC: Oh, what a pity! Come back if you change your mind later.
#??? What should I place here?
NPC: Great! I am so glad you can help.
Complete Some Quest step 4. Assign  quest.

... NoRepeat

#Step 5
Require completion of Some Quest step 4
etc...

Now if you look at that quest, and correct me if I am wrong, the first step will cause the NPC to say "Here comes..." every time the player comes into range, that is why I removed the NoRepeat after step 1.

Then the player will be presented with a menu giving option "Did you need something" since step 1 has no menu and step 2 has no requirements. When the player clicks on that option the NPC replies with "Hello dear ..." and since the step ends in NoRepeat this step will not be shown again. Also step 2 will be marked as complete.

Step 3 will now be open since step 2 is complete and the menu will give option "What kind of quest", clicking it will get the "I need to get..." reply from the NPC, and complete step 3.

The next step is now open and gives options "No" and "Yes". If the player choses "yes" the NPC responds "Great!...", step 4 completes and the quest is assigned, proceeding with step 5. If the player choses "No" however, what should I place after the NPC reply "Oh, what a pity" to ensure that when the player returns, they will be shown step 2 again, but have none of the step 3 or 4 options open, since the quest has not been assigned yet?

[Venalan]

Hi Migg,

So a bunch of things come up with this.

The 'quest locks' only apply to the first step of a quest so your step 2 will always be visible to players. Also you can't completed a quest step before the quest is assigned. There are ways around the first problem by assigning the same locks to step 2 as you do the quest so they are both (in)active at the same time. But I doubt this would work with repeatable skill quests as the quest lockout timer will probably only apply to step 1 not any subsequent steps. So as long as you can start the quest once you have completed it step 2 would always be accessible and you could repeat with no timer. If quest lockout times do only apply to step 1 you could apply a 'no assigned' and 'no completed' lock to step 2 and then once the proximity tirgger is triggered discard the quest which would then satisfy the requirement not to be assigned or compelted. The main problem with this is the lack of certainty the proximnity trigger would work. So you could get stuck for ages trying to get the quest and you wouldnt know if the timer has not run out or the trigger was not triggering.

Either way I would not use this for a repeatable quest as its too problematic.

If you really want to use this I would assign the quest at step 2, and then discard the quest at step 4 if they turn the npc down.

Venalan.

[Migg]

This is not repeatable, it is supposed to just direct the player to the repeatable quests, mostly acting as detailed intro and informing on the repeatable quests' requirements.

I too assumed step 2 should always be visible, but the first step would cause the NPC to say something as you pass by even if you don't click on them. Of course if you do click, you will find the menu from step 2, and can proceed thus.

Since you can't complete steps before assigning, I would need to assign, then unassign the quest if needed. Would then something like this work better?

Code: [Select]

#Step 1
P: !shortrange
NPC: Ah, here comes a $playerrace, I will ask for $his help! [NPC puts on a bright smile and turns to you expectantly].

...

#Step 2
P: whatyouwant.
Menu: Did you need something?
NPC: Hello dear $sir, I have been looking for a valiant $playerrace to help me with some quest. Are you willing to help?
Assign quest. Complete Some Quest step 2.

... NoRepeat

#Step 3
Require completion of Some Quest step 2.
P: whatquest.
Menu: What kind of quest?
NPC: I need to get xyz from SomeRandomLocation, but I can't leave my post. Can you go and get one for me?
Complete Some Quest step 3.

... NoRepeat

#Step 4
Require completion of Some Quest step 3.
P: nohelp. P: yeshelp.
Menu: No, I don't have time for that. Menu: Yes, I will go right away.
NPC: Oh, what a pity! Come back if you change your mind later.
Uncomplete Some Quest.
NPC: Great! I am so glad you can help.
Complete Some Quest step 4.

... NoRepeat

#Step 5
Require completion of Some Quest step 4
etc...


[Uadjet]

Okay, got a few more quests submitted. So far, I have two leatherworking quests, four lockpicking quests, and a body development quest. I'm working on the armor skill quests at the moment. I think I may have messed up part of the repeatable lockpicking quests, though, in an attempt to make the first time you do it a little different than the subsequent times. Maybe I can do something with a variable...

[Zerxzz]

This is the design decision that I don't like the most about PS. So I am placing my feedback here.

The skill boosting quests make level up too easy, in part because they reward an entire level. For those who choose to grind their skills, this devalues their accomplishments, and overall can make one less motivated/incentivized to grind. For example grinding from 190-200 doesn't feel like much of an achievement when someone could do this just by completing 10 quests.

I hope the developers reconsider their decision to make repeatable quests that grant one full skill level. One solution to my concern is to change the reward of these quests so that they reward a certain amount of exp (not too much exp) that is variable on the level of the corresponding skill.

[Migg]

I am definitely not a developer, just a player trying to write a few skill boosting quests (and taking an awfull lot of time doing it), but if I may chime in, here are my personal thoughts on the matter:

If I read your suggestion correctly, what you propose is to give part of a skill level instead of a full one. The game however doesn't currently support that. You can either give a full level (effectively providing the player with just enough skill practice points to get them to the next level) with the statement

Run script give_quest_skill <<'skillname',level>>.

or give experience points (which, if I understand correctly, are progression points - PP - used towards leveling up your basic stats) using the statement

Run script give_quest_exp <<X>>.

On the current state of affairs, while I cannot really talk about all repeatable progression quests, I have found the ones I used do require some training of the skill, though arguably not as much as would normally be needed to gain a full level, and even though someone could buy their way out of doing even that, I find them to be a good compromise.

And as for the Musical Instrument skill I am trying to implement, my motive is to allow players to overcome the biggest obstacle to actually enjoying the current implementation of music in the game: Music is the only skill where having a low level essentially makes it impossible for a player to do anything even remotely resembling an actual music performance as could be performed by even a beginner who has practiced playing a single song for a few hours. The high entry level makes it hard for people to level up enough to be able to play the songs at their normal speed, whereas even a beginner herbalist can still create a herbal tea, and do so in a reasonable amount of time.

I think on the whole this setup will be perceived differently by different types of players: Power grinders will find that the quests diminish the value of their efforts, whereas roleplayers will think they allow them to build the character they are trying to enact faster. There is no one solution fits all, but I for one have found the quests improve my experience of the game.

[Emaline]

The skill boosting quests make level up too easy, in part because they reward an entire level.

Just as an FYI it does not grant an entire level. It takes you to the next level. so if your bar is halfway to 155 it will only take to you the start of level 156, not to 156 and a half. Also, a lot of these quests require you to gather items, travel have knowledge or information of certain things not to mention the fact that they have all a timer so you can't just sit there and repeat it and get 10 levels right away. The quests scale as well depending on your current level.  I think this was the compromise for several players who felt they were spending way to much time and energy grinding skills that it was cutting into roleplay time. As well as with the current engine we have the possibilities are very limited. The server can't even tell if you are wearing skill-boosting jewelry and will not award you a point if your boost takes you over the max skill level. As with most things we are excitedly awaiting the Unreal Engine upgrade to be able to really start focusing and fine-tuning issues such as this one.