Author Topic: Crystal Blue Shift  (Read 8201 times)

Wedge

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« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2003, 08:18:06 am »
*sigh* I knew this would be hard since so many of you can\'t comprehend the concepts behind this game, being it\'s something that has NEVER been done before.  Firstly it\'s clear a lot of you have no concept of how the game plays right now, since most of you haven\'t done that very much, but I\'m not going to get into that.  It wouldn\'t really matter since  it seems none of you are even listening ot a word I\'m saying since you are bringing up points to which solutions have already been posed too; or are just being outright rude.  But I give up, I\'ll just let the big shiny post that explains everything take care of this...
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Kayden

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The real issues here, minus the insults
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2003, 08:18:08 am »
There are many issues here and I\'m going to try to clarify exactly what we\'re dealing with here. I want to keep this _constructive_                                                                                                      , and perhaps even useful.

The issues:
(1.) WHAT transfers: When transitioning between two releases, what can people keep? - Keep their account names? - Keep any items in their inventory, or receive something \"equivalent\"? - Keep any skills or character development they\'ve done?
- And so on...
(2.) HOW does it transfer: If characters can transfer any of the above, how do we choose correct bonuses or transfers which are reasonable and fair to the planeshift community as a whole? What are the consequences of choosing one set over another? (3.) How can we best IMPLEMENT the transition: What is a good technical method for achieving the transition?                                                                                                                                                
While technical issues/implementation will influence what we feel is possible, it is a separate concern from _what_ we want people to be able to keep, and _how_ as in what exactly should transfer and how should things be converted between the two differing systems.                                                                                                                                                
Also, none of these issues are particularly important now. However, they will become _increasingly important with future releases_. At some point, we will be figuring these things out - and much of the decision will come with each release.
                                                                                                                                                ---Why transfers are or will be important---
- Keeping account names. Old accounts should be purged once in a while, and perhaps people should be able to purge their own account if they are no longer going to use it. We clearly can\'t have 400 guilds and 20 characters per person and keep building this up. Some people may not want to keep their account names, too. So directly transfering the database is probably not what we want, and it may not be technically feasible.
                                                                                                                                               
Still, keeping account names will be important. Imagine someone were to create a \"Havena\" account and a guild named \"Explorers\". Then they went out as a disgrace, and everyone _thought_ they knew who Havena was from the months they\'d spent with her before. People have to distinguish between the old Explorers guild and the new one - or else a developer personally restores it. I don\'t know anyone who thinks that name stealing would be a good idea for high profile cases.
                                                                                                                                               
For low profile cases, it is also important: Imagine you\'ve played Crystal Blue for around 6 months, and really got into your character, with your name, your race, your personality...and you role played. People knew who you were. Then, the next release comes out, and someone takes your name. Not only do you not get your name, but you have to watch some person you may not even know running around as...you. Only not you. That would be demoralizing.
                                                                                                                                               
Again, this is not so important between MB and CB. But between CB and the next release, it will be more important - we\'ll have more players and further developed characters.
                                                                                                                                                - Keeping items
I talked to a friend the other night who hunts a lot and essentially gives the crystals away to other people who need them more than he does. When he thought of the prospect that nothing would transfer between releases, he suddenly became a bit demoralized and seemed to no longer want to play. In fact, he quit and went to do something else. I can see 4 months from Crystal Blue\'s release, if we were to do wiping then - \"Oh, I don\'t want to play anymore...everything I do will go away.\" That would be sad.

Not a big deal now, but in future releases, it will be a problem.
                                                                                                                                               
- Keeping skills
Not a problem with MB to CB. In future releases, it will be a problem.
                                                                                                                                               
I would say that any of these will essentially be a requirement for transferring between Crystal Blue and future releases, if not required now.  
                                                                                                                                           
---On fairness---
A good many people have said that any transfers will give people an unfair
advantage. Specifically, power gamers who play all day will have an unfair
advantage. I have news for you. Power gamers will _always_ have the advantage.
                                                                                                                                               
Why? They have explored and know the world like their own home. You can simply
say \"I\'m by a small crack in the wall\" and they\'ll come running across the
entire world knowing exactly where you are, taking the short path there. They\'ll fight more mobs, add to their skill set, discover game secrets, and so on.
                                                                                                                                               
They\'ll likely also communicate with other power gamers and share their findings, allowing both to gain an even stronger advantage. You cannot stop any of this from happening without killing any community - nor would you want to.
                                                                                                                                               
New players can still overtake \"power gamers.\" As a case in point, Harwen just bought a longsword. I have never had 2000 crystals to purchase one. I do know where most spawn points are. I have played Molecular Blue for far more than he has. Yet he overtook me in a fairly short amount of time, though I\'m pretty sure I\'ve taught him a thing or two on the way.
                                                                                                                                               
Transitional bonuses may, in the short term, provide an advantage to some players. These may be power players, but also other players. However, in the long term, this becomes rather irrelevant. Why?
                                                                                                                                               
People join at any time. I joined 4 months after Molecular Blue was released. People will be joining 4 months after Crystal Blue is released, too. Even if there are _no_ transfer bonuses at all, people who started at Crystal Blue release time will have an edge over those who join later. Is that fair? Is it right for those who start sooner to have an edge over these new players? Sure, it\'s only logical - otherwise those who played for the first 4 months would have made absolutely no progress in their game!
                                                                                                                                               
As such, the game must be structured so that new players can join, be a part of the game, but do things that new players do to strengthen up and build their character. Easier parts. Advanced players need to be able to move beyond this and go to harder locations. You would never make the entire game for advanced players, nor for easy players. Either way, you would have no players - people could either not start, or they would be bored!

So all we end up debating when we say that transfer bonuses are evil and give an unfair advantage or not is an initial advantage - one which will soon blur. Someone who played MB for 5 months straight and then played CB once a week would soon be overtaken in power by a new Crystal Blue player.
                                                                                                                                               
We can choose to provide or not provide an initial advantage and when or if we want to level the playing field. We cannot choose whether or not some people will eventually have an advantage over another. Whatever we do, we do need to consider our existing and future player base, and make sure that we treat them both in a just manner and avoid demoralizing either our players (new or involved), or our development team.

I only wish to inquire and voice _my_ suggestion on one _potential idea_ of how things might work both for this transition and for future transitions. I did not see this idea posted, nor had others who encouraged me to post, as someone who wishes to see the Planeshift project succeed. I want back up my idea with my reasons for suggesting it. I want to clarify the issues, what\'s at stake, and provoke useful discussion and to find solutions to future problems. My idea of having an old database and a transitional webpage is one that could be applied even to transitions between Crystal Blue and future releases when the stakes will be far higher.

I have given countless hours of my life to answering questions and helping people out. Lots of people turn to _me_ for help all the time when they need anything. I\'ve met people here and given time _outside_ of planeshift to help these friends. I want to help with useful proposals and ideas.
Kayden - WTB Developer / Engine Team
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Harwen

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Heh...
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2003, 08:26:32 am »
Let me get one thing straight.

I never called myself an \"Oldbie\", nor did I call myself I newbie either. It\'s not like there is much to the game to get \"Old\" or experienced at, I was just calmly explaining my views on a subject. If  you are going to get trivial about a matter and not contribute to the conversation, my email is avaliable.

Anyways, I agree totally with anyone who has a weapon. They know how much work it took to get that shiny sprite in your hands.

To everyone else who is too lazy or just a stick in the mud. Understand, what is the reason for crystals in the first place? What was the entire reason for such high weapon prices at all? If you were going to wipe everything so ruthlessly (again I apologize) then why make the galkard so expensive? Why disheart us from playing this game everytime a new release is put out? What is so bad about the elite being the elite? I am not saying I am \"the best\" but I did spend most of my free time in between work and school (yes, work I am 19, I have a job I go to college) trying my hardest to collect crystals to get a lonsword so I could make my guild proud. I am really into the game, I have escapist problems, sue me. I, and I am sure many people like me would suddenly find a terrible flaw in this great game you have if you decide to \"wipe\" everything.

1) Collision Checking (understandable)
2) It can\'t be our real lives (understandable, marginally)
3) It is a waste of time.

That might get me deleted right there, but 3 months to play a single game is a long time. I haven\'t gotten bored, I have seen 456 rubys and I haven\'t gotten bored a single time I picked them up. I defend your game to the T online, I support newbies (like me) by giving tours of the city, and giving tips. I am a quick learner, what can I say.

After many serious discussions with my friends in the game, I have found that many of them would probaly not play as much or give up on a little thing called justice. We earned our weapons, It\'s fair in my eyes, just because you don\'t have your pretty galkard yet, doesn\'t make it right to take away my hard work.

Go Cabal, you guys rule.

P.S. Watch out for Harwen, Cabal, watch out for Harwen.
 

Harwen

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You know what?
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2003, 08:41:11 am »
This is so horribly pointless, I don\'t care anymore about this stupid game, this has become emotionally draining for reasons I don\'t care to say, it\'s only a stupid game, right?

If anyone else tries to degrade my argument on the ridiculous basis that I am just a newbie, let them know this, THIS GAME HAS A LEARNING CURVE OF TIC TAC TOE.

The inventory works, so why give us hope at all?

 And you SHOULD get a reward for being there for 2 years, did I exclude you?

Forget you all  and the hopless dream that was planeshift.
 

Wedge

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« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2003, 08:43:16 am »
And I\'m still right, I said something like this has never been done, because it hasn\'t!  You are right all the attempts before have failed, and clearly you believe this one will as well, so just go screw yourself.  This jack-off aside, I think the rest of you people can understand some of this.
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Bushie

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« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2003, 09:16:48 am »
Quote
After many serious discussions with my friends in the game, I have found that many of them would probaly not play as much or give up on a little thing called justice. We earned our weapons, It\'s fair in my eyes, just because you don\'t have your pretty galkard yet, doesn\'t make it right to take away my hard work.


Well, when i said earlier that \"its not like you WORKED for them\" i was trying to get the fact across that we did little more than get on a lot and pick up a bunch of crystals. I guess i might have sounded a bit like a hypocrite, but I earned my Claymore. What is MORE IMPORTANT is that i wouldnt hesitate to give it up if it meant that gameplay would be fairer to newbies, becuase they would eventually become really good and the game itself would become more fun and more challenging because of that.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2003, 09:31:04 am by Bushie »
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Wedge

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« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2003, 09:50:42 am »
The system doesn\'t force anyone to carry stuff over from MB, it would just be an option.  You don\'t have to if you don\'t want too.  And we\'ve thoroughly explained why carrying stuff over is not unfair to newbies nor will it unbalance the game.
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elscouta

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« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2003, 10:15:14 am »
I don\'t understand why some persons want to reinitialize all accounts to make the game fairer.

Each time a newbie create an account in PS, all others players will not lose all their items to be at the same level than the incoming? Th

So, why a new release should flush the dbs? MMORPG can\'t be fair like this! the older -> the better. A way to prevent this is not to clean dbs each time but to create drawbacks for huge equipment, decrease the power of money... The biggest problem is normally high-stats but for the moment, i haven\'t see any char with huge skills so there is no need of such a cleanup
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Kiern

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« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2003, 04:06:40 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Wedge
I didn\'t want to bring that up, but yes that is much easier to say for someone who hasn\'t played a lot.


Um...yes, I have played a lot...and I know others who have played a lot longer than me who I talked to in IRC about this that agree

Quote
Originally posted by Wedge
 Firstly it\'s clear a lot of you have no concept of how the game plays right now, since most of you haven\'t done that very much, but I\'m not going to get into that.


The game does not play ANYWAY AT ALL, the crystal hunt was put there to keep people occupied until the next version, nothing more, and that should in no way effect the game later.

Quote
Originally posted by Wedge
  It wouldn\'t really matter since  it seems none of you are even listening ot a word I\'m saying since you are bringing up points to which solutions have already been posed too; or are just being outright rude.


oh really, we are?  To me, it looks to be the other way around, we continue to come up with valid points to get rid of the ones you have made while the people who agree with it continue to bring up the same points, over and over again.  As for being rude, read your other posts...

Either way, it seems to me, most of you who want this are just being greedy, it has always been said they would be deleted, just because you wasted your time playing the game shouldn\'t make a difference to those who were smart enough to realize that they should be doing something productive...if it had been said from the beginning, that would be totally different.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2003, 04:34:11 pm by Kiern »

Grakrim

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« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2003, 04:56:19 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by elscouta
So, why a new release should flush the dbs? MMORPG can\'t be fair like this! the older -> the better. A way to prevent this is not to clean dbs each time but to create drawbacks for huge equipment, decrease the power of money... The biggest problem is normally high-stats but for the moment, i haven\'t see any char with huge skills so there is no need of such a cleanup

You overlook one important point: What if the structure of the DB must change (Which I say is likely from MB to CB, due to the change in character creation)?  Then pwipe is inevitable.  This is something that MUDers should know all too well; I\'ve been on more than a few MUDs that pwipe once every year or two, although they were rather early in development (such as we are).  Being a MUDer myself, I don\'t mind a pwipe; our devs know what\'s best for this game.

Also, Kiern had a point when he said the Crystal Hunt is only here to keep interest.  CB likely won\'t have a Crystal Hunt, to which I say \"Good riddence\".

How about this as a compensation method: Record some of the top players in a variety of categories (crystal ownership, weapon ownership, total richness, usage time, etc.) for all eternity on the website.  That way the players who deserve it are compensated, but in a way that is fair to all players.
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Wedge

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« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2003, 08:13:54 pm »
Yes I know I was mad last night.  I said a lot of things I didn\'t mean, and I apologize.  I realize there is a key point I should have brought up that is the real purpose behind this.  Firstly, no, I actually don\'t really care if MB stuff in ported to CB in any manner, it isn\'t that big a deal.  However, unless the accounts for CB are going to be the same accounts for the rest of the games development, porting characters between versions will matter an increasing amount.  So while the transition of things from MB to CB is not that relevant, I think it would be a good precedent to set, given\' the relative ease of implementing it.  Which I have thought out some more and the structure would work like this:

Planeshift Website: For about a week on each side of the release of CB, a form is put up on the website where  a player can enter a valid user/pass for a MB character.
.|.
.|.
.|.
\\ /
Molecular Blue Database: Is queried for the inventory of the user specified.
.|.
.|.
.|.
\\ /
Crystal Blue Database: Imports the user/pass from MB (so player names are preserved) and translates the inventory to currency in CB, which based on the economy section of the website would be about 11-12 rubies = 1 tria, seems about right.

Now again, I don\'t really think it is that relevant that data be moved over from MB to CB, but in the future it will be a much larger issue, so it\'d be nice to start now.
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shangralah

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« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2003, 08:47:31 pm »
Well i think acounts should be deleted because of the many names not used and the guilds blah blah blah

it only makes sense to delete the accounts and im sure the weapons wouldnt be as hard to get with the fighting and all.

Kiern

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« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2003, 09:23:47 pm »
Wedge, you have yet to say something new, we can read just fine.  Once PS gets advanced enough I\'m sure they will be keeping the characters, that does not have any relevance to crystals being changed into money.

Quote
Originally posted by Wedge
Firstly, no, I actually don\'t really care if MB stuff in ported to CB in any manner, it isn\'t that big a deal.
...
which based on the economy section of the website would be about 11-12 rubies = 1 tria, seems about right.


Obviously, you do, or you would not continue to argue the point of crystals going to tria, they can set up the system just fine without that.

And that is insane, most people would be rich from the start following your system, rubies are nothing.

Grakrim\'s idea is a good one, although I don\'t see the top players on here complaining they want all this stuff, I doubt wedge will be satisfied unless he is paid for wasting his own time.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2003, 09:26:28 pm by Kiern »

elscouta

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« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2003, 09:24:53 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Wedge
Now again, I don\'t really think it is that relevant that data be moved over from MB to CB, but in the future it will be a much larger issue, so it\'d be nice to start now.


i hope that there will be no more db cleanup. It will be very frustating if you lose all your skills/stats/items when fighting has begun.
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Drilixer

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« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2003, 10:22:20 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by elscouta
Quote
Originally posted by Wedge
Now again, I don\'t really think it is that relevant that data be moved over from MB to CB, but in the future it will be a much larger issue, so it\'d be nice to start now.


i hope that there will be no more db cleanup. It will be very frustating if you lose all your skills/stats/items when fighting has begun.


thats why from a dev perspective it would be better for the playerbase to be desensitized to such occassions while the game is still in alpha / beta