Fate or Free will?

[Olig]

Davis sez:
Is predetermination not simply the existance of future events?

Right here. The future cannot be predetermined. You know why? Because the future has not happened yet. If it has, then its the past.

Olig sez:
(Einstein was a smart guy, but just because he said it doesnt mean its right. He did fail math in school you know.)

I never said he did. Its just that he MIGHT be because these kinds of arguments cannot be proven. I just dont like it when people attempt to justify themselves or a point by having an authority back it up.

[Davis]

That\'s where we disagree. You say the future has not happened yet. I say it has.

And I don\'t see why I shouldn\'t say Einstein backs my opinion. He did research into this and found this was the most likely answer. I am supporting my conclusion with the results of his... whatever.

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by Davis
For example, even if God does not exist, very religious people are  generally better people.

... That\'s horse manure! I\'m an atheist, and I have noticed that I\'m a more moral and generous person than -every- devout theist I have ever met. Don\'t make such statements, Davis. Not unless you can back them up with excellent data.

[Davis]

What? You don\'t notice the word \"generally\" there?

[Karyuu]

And I disagree. Please explain how religious people are \"generally\" better.

[Grakrim]

Originally posted by Karyuu
\\... That\'s horse manure! I\'m an atheist, and I have noticed that I\'m a more moral and generous person than -every- devout theist I have ever met. Don\'t make such statements, Davis. Not unless you can back them up with excellent data.

I tend to agree with Karyuu, here; although I would have used harsher language...

Anyway, time as we experience it need not be the only definition; that is, time need not flow in one direction, the direction we call the \"future\". (Although it probably does)

In any case, I\'ve always believed that the future is predetermined by chaos, and any illusion of free will is just that, an illusion.  If we had a powerful enough computer (and enough knowledge) to track every particle on a quantum level since the beginning of time, we could easily see into the future (and the past and present, for that matter).  The Kwisatz Hederach of telescopes...

[Olig]

Grakim sez:
to track every particle on a quantum level since the beginning of time, we could easily see into the future (and the past and present, for that matter)

Grakim: There was no beginning of time. In chemestry, the one sure thing that was absolutely correct was this chemical law: In a chemical reaction, nothing is created nor destroyed.

That sentence alone rules out any gods creating the universe and proving that everything was already here. It is impossible to magically create something from nothing. If everything was already here, that means that time never had a beginning.

Davis: Religious people are not \"generally better\". In fact, if you read a history book, they are generally worse. KKK members are religious and so are the taliban. Are these generally better people? Those who kill because of differences? And don\'t get me started on christians and their little witch hunts and jewish gas baths.

To everyone: The future did not happen yet. How hard is that to understand?

[Davis]

Explaining my \"generally better\" thing would derail the topic. PM me if you are still interested.

Also, if chemical law only exists after the universe was created, then what is to say that the universe wasn\'t created? If time is a property of the universe, what is to say that there was no time until the universe, which is, therefore, a beginning?

And why didn\'t the future happen yet? What proof do you have to back that up? We just aren\'t there yet.

[Grakrim]

Originally posted by Olig
Grakim: There was no beginning of time. In chemestry, the one sure thing that was absolutely correct was this chemical law: In a chemical reaction, nothing is created nor destroyed.

That sentence alone rules out any gods creating the universe and proving that everything was already here. It is impossible to magically create something from nothing. If everything was already here, that means that time never had a beginning.

There\'s actually a popular theory that there was a beginning of time, and that matter did exist before then.  Its said the universe repeatedly expands and then collapses on itself.  Of course, its impossible to be for sure, its physics...

To everyone: The future did not happen yet. How hard is that to understand?

Who\'s to say something hasn\'t happened yet if it can be predicted?

[Davis]

Originally posted by Grakrim
In any case, I\'ve always believed that the future is predetermined by chaos, and any illusion of free will is just that, an illusion.  If we had a powerful enough computer (and enough knowledge) to track every particle on a quantum level since the beginning of time, we could easily see into the future (and the past and present, for that matter).  The Kwisatz Hederach of telescopes...

What you call the illusion of free will is what I call free will. Just because it can be predicted doesn\'t make it any less free.

[Grakrim]

Originally posted by Davis
What you call the illusion of free will is what I call free will. Just because it can be predicted doesn\'t make it any less free.

Ah, well that\'s reasonable enough, just a slight differance of definition.

Just curious.  I meant free will as in the equal ability to make any decision, what, if I may ask, was your definition?

[Levski]

Originally posted by Davis
And why didn\'t the future happen yet? What proof do you have to back that up? We just aren\'t there yet.

Originally posted by Davis
What you call the illusion of free will is what I call free will. Just because it can be predicted doesn\'t make it any less free.

Did you just switch sides?

Erhem, the universe always existed in some form or other, so therefore all of the laws always existed in some form or other, therefore quantum theory always existed in some form or other, therefore free will existed in some form or other.  Imho that is.  But the reason the future can\'t be predicted is because there are too many factors.  And they multiply themselves exponentially when it comes to the possibilities of the future.  For example, 6 billion human beings are each a factor.

But, to go the other way, I think it is perfectly possible to reconstruct past events, since they have already happened.

[Grakrim]

I meant \"in theory\", Levski.  Humans aren\'t likey to have the knowledge of every particle of the universe at any specific point in time, the knowledge to accuratly predict the movement of particles on a quantum level, and a computer with enough power and storage to take in and process all this information any time soon.

So in theory, its possible to predict the future.

As for the past, its not as straightforward as it sounds, and to adquetely reconstuct the past you must use the same type of calculations to calculate the future, just directed in the opposite direction... It might actually be slightly harder to calculate, but it makes my head hurt just thinking about it...

[Davis]

Originally posted by Grakrim
Ah, well that\'s reasonable enough, just a slight differance of definition.

Just curious.  I meant free will as in the equal ability to make any decision, what, if I may ask, was your definition?

The ability to do what you want. There is a difference there.

Originally posted by Levski
Did you just switch sides?

No, why do you ask?

[derwoodly]

Oy vie, free will debate!

Do you have free will? Yes of cource you do.  Why else would advertisers spend so much money trying to change your mind!  If there was someone else controlling you, they would be directing their attention to them.

There is no contradiction in a diety that knows all and your free will.  To assume otherwise requires flawed logic.  Your free will has to be viewed from your perspective.  If you assume the perspective of an all knowing diety without actually knowing everything, then you are only guessing at what that perspective is like.  The argument must be phased \"if I knew everything and could not change what was going to happen then I would not have free will\".  So I would argue since you don\'t know everything then you must have free will.

If a computer was created that could keep tract of every particle in the universe and could predict every motion of the particles, THEN you would not have free will. Since this computer has not been created, then You must have free will.

Levski,
Quantum Theory only exist as long as there are humans that believe in it, thus the word \"theory\".

Olig,
Hate, killed the Jews, not Christans.

Karyuu,
One always sees ones self as more moral and gererous than the \"other guy\".    

Davis,
A good Christian never thinks of theirselfs as \"better\" than anyone.