Author Topic: More deites that don't suck (Unlike the T man)  (Read 5968 times)

Wedge

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« Reply #60 on: March 27, 2004, 11:07:33 pm »
You don\'t seem to understand that you don\'t even have a point.  You clearly have no understanding of the mythos if you think a romantic tragedy is somehow meant to degrade females.  That\'s the job of religions in the real world.



And on a slightly unrelated note...
Quote
Hmmm what\'s the male version of a feminist

Mysoginist would work I think.
Ninjas have feelings too.  Mostly they feel like dancing.



Kiva

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« Reply #61 on: March 27, 2004, 11:25:08 pm »
To get back on topic for a little while...


First off, according to one of the devs (Mr. Anonymous) there won\'t be any more gods. Not player run, nor dev run. However, it is still Talad who decides such things and I haven\'t been able to catch him for a personal interview. So we don\'t know how it\'s gonna be for sure. :)

Elections for gods? No. If anyone is to make someone a new god, it\'d either be Talad or someone who plays as Vod?l. Noone else. Voting for gods... Pff... What\'re you guys thinking? :)


To Maxximus:
About all the feminist stuff. I can\'t really see why having no living female gods means that women are second grade people. I mean, honestly. They created a nice setting for a nice game, and that\'s as far as it goes. If Talad and Laanx intended on making women second grade beings, trust me. You\'d know.
\"Somewhere over the rainbow...\"

Maxximus

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« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2004, 01:50:10 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Wedge
You don\'t seem to understand that you don\'t even have a point.  You clearly have no understanding of the mythos if you think a romantic tragedy is somehow meant to degrade females.  That\'s the job of religions in the real world.

And on a slightly unrelated note...
Quote
Hmmm what\'s the male version of a feminist

Mysoginist would work I think.


<yawn>

Your reply above has an elegant ring but it\'s a strawman. A slavish strawman. I\'d give you some credit if it were clever somehow - I\'d admire you for that, in a way - but, alas, it\'s just you being schematic. How boring. Even the insult is dumb.

I do have a point, Wedge, and it\'s major. I\'ve explained it twice so far. You and a few others in this thread can\'t fathom it - that is your true problem. Unfortunately, it\'s a problem I can\'t solve for you because there are only so many ways to express a simple idea using the English language.

Draklar

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« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2004, 02:15:08 pm »
Maxximus, only you understand your point. Everyone else have no idea what are you talking about.
Even Gronomist doesn\'t have anything against the setting and she\'s more feminine than you are (I think :P).
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Maxximus

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« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2004, 02:21:41 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Gronomist
To get back on topic for a little while...

To Maxximus:
About all the feminist stuff. I can\'t really see why having no living female gods means that women are second grade people. I mean, honestly. They created a nice setting for a nice game, and that\'s as far as it goes. If Talad and Laanx intended on making women second grade beings, trust me. You\'d know.


Get back on topic? When did we leave the topic, Gronomist?

We didn\'t. This is simply how discussions evolve.

I have never said that Talad and Laanx intended on making women second grade beings.

If you\'d like to discuss what I have said in this thread, I\'m game. Or, we can chat about it one one my IRC channels that you idle on day and night without saying a word. I mean, those channels seem like a good place to chat,  unless you\'re only there to log events.

* CLIMaX sets mode: +v Gronomist

Kiern

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« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2004, 07:45:43 pm »
I know exactly what Maxximus is talking about, which is why I know also he is a complete idiot.

And now, he is turning to disregarding people for stuff not even related to this....can you not have a normal discussion man?

Anyways, my point is, you are wrong Maxximus, not only is it NOT a major point...it is not a point at all...oh, do I not understand?  I don\'t recall anyone doing anything but replying to your messages and countering them instead of bringing up new points...so if they make no sense to you, something is wrong with the original post.

Ghostslayer

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« Reply #66 on: March 28, 2004, 09:54:51 pm »
Well, I thought I might as well jump into the discussion :P

Quote
Originally Posted by Maxximus

If the official god Talaad was cast as a male, and the only female god got de-feminized, I think it was all written by a guy who thought: Hmm, we don\'t need no chicks, a guy god is good enough. What woman would ever write that Laanx lost her femininity to become a guy (or sexless, or whatever the guy who wrote that meant)? Impossible. All women in Planeshift were cast as second class citizens by this. It doesn\'t mean that the female players of the game will accept the limitations that this less-than status suggests.


Here\'s an excerpt from the PS history:

Quote

When Talad, imbued with the crystal\'s power, came close to her to create the first creature of his people, a tempest of chaos burst forth from the god\'s hands and hit Laanx on her face, penetrating deeply into her body, and she became forever disfigured.
But Laanx was not beautiful anymore and she fell down into a deep depression that shattered her heart like a mirror.



I don\'t see why this is a problem.  There are two gods, one male, one female.  Talad screwed up, and disfigured Laanx.  Laanx became depressed, and it affected her mind.  Why would it be impossible for a woman to write this?

Also I don\'t see anywhere in PS setting where females are 2nd class, where they can\'t do something a male can\'t.

Quote
Originally Posted by Maxximus

The official authors could have made some of the races to have females as the physically stronger-looking ones, too. But no, same old same old. Most races follow the male sexist guideline that women should be less imposing than males.


Again, I don\'t see why this is males being sexist.  This happens in nature all the time.
It was also pointed out that:
Quote
Originally Posted by Wedge

...playing a female or male version of a race is statistically exactly the same.


Quote
Originally Posted by Maxximus

This does not mean, however, that ladies won\'t rule the place side by side with men...or maybe rule above them.


Who says they can\'t do that now?  In the government section, it doesn\'t say anything about the Octarchs or Vigesimi being male.

Edit: Typo
« Last Edit: March 28, 2004, 10:09:15 pm by Ghostslayer »
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AendarCallenlasse

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« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2004, 02:20:46 am »
Anyone else notice how so far not one woman has agreed with Maxximus?  If it\'s so sexist why don\'t they care Max?

Only n00bs don't quote themselves...
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Maxximus

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« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2004, 10:44:07 pm »
The story of Planeshift, or the Histories, is a document full of trite ideas and lauguage. The writer of the story is familiar with English. He attempts to sound elegant and RPG-ish. Some passages include words and phrases that were choosen for their apparent stylishness rather than clarity. For the most part, the story is boring but not difficult to understand. The story is also quite sexist.

Official human history is the story of men oppressing women, and highlights of important football matches. The official record, produced and owned by men since a record was first kept, is supposed to be the unbiased story of all the people, not one gender\'s view of it. Nevertheless, the discriminatory and abusive behavior of men towards women throughout time can be found in the official history if you look carefully and illuminate its passages with the a strong light. The scribes and guardians of the official record never intended for us to find this information but it\'s in there, in between the lines. All members of society are deeply influenced by the official record, it is the default lens through which all events are viewed.

Yliakum History is written from a male sexist point of view. It didn\'t have to be written that way to make the story work but the writer sees the world through the male sexist lens of official human history, so he wrote a story that makes sense from that perspective. This should not prevent people who choose to play as female characters in Planeshift from partcipating in the game as equals with those who play as male character. As far as I know, if you choose to play as a female character the game will function for you the same as for male characters. However, women are reduced to second class citizens by the fact that only male gods exist in the Planeshift story. It\'s a passive form discrimination by men against women.

Women are used to this kind of crap in video games. Many have learned to work around it or to ignore it. But resistent as women can be, they are still subjected to male sexism in the Planeshift story and it\'s wrong. The sexism doesn\'t even advance the story line. It\'s just sexist because the writer is. Whether the writer realizes that his story is sexist, I don\'t know. He could be unaware that anything is amiss; lots of guys don\'t understand how insensitive they can be until you explain it to them. That, however, does not make it ok. The Planeshift story should be changed so that there are male and female gods who are equals. Similar changes should be made in hundreds of other game stories.

Let\'s look at parts of the Histories to get aquainted with the sexism I\'m complainig about.

In First Epoch: Laanx and Talad, the two gods are described in physical terms: Laanx, the female, is a vision of beauty straight out of a straight guy\'s idea of what female beauty should be. She\'s young, she\'s sexy, she alluring, she\'s ready to make love to men, especially Talad. Talad is described as a very macho-looking, ageless dude. We don\'t know if he has any desire for sexual relations with Lannx but if he does he will certainly find Laanx the ideal partner. The snapshots of both gods are familiar and unchallenging, and exactly what most men are programmed to expect. Women, too. Men have been promoting this picture of themselves and women for thousands of years so it\'s not as shocking an example of male sexism as, say, date rape. But it\'s still male sexism and still wrong.

In Second Epoch we also meet Vod?l. I assume that Vod?l is a male god based on his priorities: He agrees to help Talad and Laanx lure races away from other gods to worship them. In exchange for this Talad becomes one of his servants, and Laanx one of his lover.

So far in Yliakum History we have two male gods and one female god. The older gods refered to in the document could be female gods but there is no idication of this so I assume they are males.

In Second Epoch: The Division, Laanx, lover of Vod?l, gets her face blown off when Talad makes some sort of a mistake while creating a race of beings. Laanx suddenly looks ugly, and the Kran race is born at the same moment as if to underscore just how ugly. (This is the most sophisticated writing in the whole story!)

The history states: Laanx was not beautiful anymore and she fell down into a deep depression that shattered her heart like a mirror...

Now, Laanx isn\'t a women anymore, at least not an ideal one in the male sexist sense. The former bombshell babe is some kind of horrible shell of her former self.

In the Third Epoch: The Realm of Lannx, it becomes very clear that Laanx has transformed into a male. She is now a he, no doubt about it.

The Fourth and Fifth Epochs are devoted to a lot of flowery details that don\'t directly affect the male sexist perspective of the story. Something happens in the Fifth Epoch that is very telling, though. Laanx, now a male god, finds a a handsome mortal male to help him make a come back to rival Talad, and it works.

Conclusion: The story of Planeshift is told from a male sexist point of view. The writer might be unaware of his own male sexist views and simply set out to cobble together any story he could, not one that discriminates against women. But, that doesn\'t make the story acceptable and it should be changed without delay to promote a positive image of women. Throughout Yliakum History Laanx, the only female god in the story, is cast as an petty, confused and coniving being who rejects her femininity in order regain her former high statue as a god. She transforms into a male god and in the final chapters of Yliakum History , and Laanx, the male god, recruits a \"handsome young man\" mortal to help her (him?) regain power and influence. Only by becoming a man and seeking the help of a male mortal is she able to be a god equal to the male Talad.

Kiern

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« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2004, 11:21:41 pm »
That is more like it!

Now, I can see where you get your perspective from except for some points, here are two before I leave:

1.  You immediatly say that this is told from a male sexist view which makes females second class, I\'m not saying your wrong about it being sexist (although I do disagree), but the male version of each god seems worse in the story then the female...talad\'s stupid, laanx is screwed up...I don\'t see how that makes males better...and also Laanx changing shows that they DO NOT actually represent that gender since they are not specfically one and that way forever.

2.  It\'s a story which most of the new people will not even read, and if they do they won\'t understand it...there is no reason to look that deep into it and seem to be searching for a reason to call it sexist, basically ANYTHING can be called sexist if you look to deep into it, as any other type of discrimatory terms (not necessarily all bad).

......
« Last Edit: March 29, 2004, 11:23:06 pm by Kiern »

Wedge

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« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2004, 11:21:53 pm »
Wow.  Good for you.  

I can only hope, for your sake, that you never go back and read what you wrote and still think it makes sense.

Luckily this class is only based on opinions, a realm where reality has no hold.  So I give your paper an 84/100, or a 3.36 if you like college grades.  And thanks for giving me another name to tack on.  I know it\'s not the same usage, but I like it anyway.
Ninjas have feelings too.  Mostly they feel like dancing.



Monketh

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« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2004, 11:36:58 pm »
Might I note that women often choose to wear revealing clothes and thus conform to the \"Sexist Male Conspiracy\"?

What I\'m saying is, maybe there is a little sexism, though I don\'t think it\'s enough to justify a complete re-write. (Not that I think it\'s particularly good in the first place...)  The writer is not specifically aiming to degrade women.  

Secondly, us men have to live by the Male Code of Honor, you know, so we don\'t get called \"gay\".  This includes being insensitive. :P
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Ghostslayer

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« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2004, 03:55:17 am »
Very nice Maxximus, that clears up your position on this issue nicely, and adds some insight that I hadn\'t thought about, as I never really read the PS history in great detail.

I still don\'t agree with your point, as I feel that you are reading too much into some of the phrases, but I do understand why some of the points in the story could be viewed as being sexist.

I\'d like to note that in the First Epoch Talad is the figure of a stereotypical male, just as Laanx is the stereotypical female.  You could also reverse your analysis on this; if Laanx wanted a sexual parter, she would find Talad to be an ideal parter as well.  Since you also noted that both men and women have been promoting this picture of themselves and the opposite gender, I wouldn\'t in my opinion, state that this was sexist either way.  Stereotypical for both genders yes, but not sexist.
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