Author Topic: Commmunity involvement  (Read 2972 times)

Illysia

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2014, 05:53:01 pm »
I believe going back to the skunk works might be a good idea. I think it will be hard to get up front commitments.

Suno_Regin

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2014, 06:00:23 pm »
As little time as I have to even login to PlaneShift nowadays, I'd like to contribute in some way. Yes, most likely with quests or books. My main focus, in a perfect world, is editing; a lot of the quests that are already ingame have not been edited and need it badly, in my opinion. I can't promise that anything will be done in a timely manner, but I can work on things in my free time as needed, unless I'm given free reign to pursue fixing some of the issues of which I'm most aware.

Tuathanach

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2014, 06:23:07 pm »
Just looking at the requirements to join leave me out. I've never liked table-top rpg's and one of my complaints has been those that use that model instead of the 3d mechanics of the game. I could write some quests and books but how would it be received?

I am really happy with my friends that have joined the team, Taya, Jilare and Eredin. They have done great work. I can really see Taya's hand in some of the new quests. \\o//
In my personal opinion the "requirements" need revised and are only guidelines. When it comes to table top games, I personally have never even played one and I am in Rules team. If you wish to do quests and books, they will need approved by Venalan and Mordaan, so I would suggest having outline of idea and speak to one of them.
Nice to see you know some of the devs who have done some great work in last year.

As little time as I have to even login to PlaneShift nowadays, I'd like to contribute in some way. Yes, most likely with quests or books. My main focus, in a perfect world, is editing; a lot of the quests that are already ingame have not been edited and need it badly, in my opinion. I can't promise that anything will be done in a timely manner, but I can work on things in my free time as needed, unless I'm given free reign to pursue fixing some of the issues of which I'm most aware.
The project I am thinking of may work for you as you could do one task when you have time to do one, without committing more longer term.

I believe going back to the skunk works might be a good idea. I think it will be hard to get up front commitments.
I liked skunkworks but it did lack structure. With right leadership it could be a success. I would be willing to support it on an unofficial basis. It would require those involved to sign the ABC License.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 06:26:27 pm by Tuathanach »
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Interested contact Myself or Zunna.
We are contactable ingame, by PM or on Discord

bilbous

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2014, 06:57:52 pm »
The problem with the editing idea, Suno, is that the only way to do it is to offer your thoughts to the devs responsible, that has been primarily Venalan. I have posted many edits of quest dialog on the tracker and they are generally well received. Other times I have put them in petitions or /told Venalan directly. These also have generally been well received. Of course many of the edits I have offered predate some of the current devs as I was doing it on the old tracker however long ago that was. I offered to take a dump and edit it but that will not happen ever. The only way to get that level of access is through the team.

Quite a few people use the tracker, it isn't all that difficult. As a player tester you do not need to get the settings right as to where the bug lies but it does help a lot if you try. Searching the tracker is a bit problematic as the basic search only looks at bug titles. To find out if your bug has been previously posted you need to do an advanced search and tick the comments and details check boxes. You can also select closed bugs at the same time as open ones or in a subsequent search. Some bugs considered especially exploitable get marked as confidential and cannot be found. If you are the person who reported it you will still be able to see it but otherwise you need to have privileges only offered to (possibly a subset of) the team. There is a tickbox on the "new task" form that you can select to make the bug confidential.

Rigwyn

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2014, 07:03:47 pm »
I gave settings a stab and it really wasn't that bad.

IRC didn't always work for me time-wise, so I used forum messages as needed to bridge the gaps.

Working on a team project like this is about helping the project to achieve it's goals. If you are more interested in achieving your own personal goals at the expense of the project, then that's not really useful to the team or project. If there is some overlap so that helping the team with its goals also helps you with your personal goals, then it's mutually beneficial and everyone wins. An example of this would be getting some practice with writing, art or development in return for offering your work.

As for using stuff from other sites, or not meeting the expected quality, that's just part of meeting the project's requirements. Leaning to produce quality work that meets expectations is important whether its for a leisure project like this or for your career.

One of the nice things about the PS team is that you are not pressured for work as you would be in the workplace. Things seem to move at a fairly slow pace, which works well for folks like myself who are busy in real life and have a hard time finding continuous time to work on side projects.

I've heard a lot of bitching about people just *handing over* their precious work for... for FREE. That's free as in, "I'm not getting the million dollars that my precious ancient Nolthrir poem or 3d stick with leaf and berry would land me elsewhere." It's not like we're sawing off arms and legs... and fingers.. and giving them away for FREE.

You contribute stuff for several reasons, such as:

* To help improve the game for yourself and everyone else.
* To enjoy being able to see your work in the game and others enjoying it.
* To give back. We've all played the game on Talad's dime. Why not give something back?
* To get practice at doing what we do.


Suno_Regin

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2014, 07:15:34 pm »
The project I am thinking of may work for you as you could do one task when you have time to do one, without committing more longer term.

Sounds good! Send me a PM with details or direct me to where I need to go, and when I get a chance I'll see what I can do.

The problem with the editing idea, Suno, is that the only way to do it is to offer your thoughts to the devs responsible, that has been primarily Venalan.

I've been turned off from doing that, similar to the experience of TheAuthor. I was basically told "you're the only one to complain about this issue, so it'll stay as it is" (referring to the behavior of NPCs feeling more hokey than realistic, to put it simply). Of course, I'd love to discuss the problems in more detail with somebody, but I refuse to engage simply due to the way I was treated before. I've had similar experiences with Xillix, so at this point, I'm much more comfortable being given a task or being given the power to do something myself than trying to communicate an issue to a dev. I hate saying that, but this is a place to give such suggestions, my suggestion being perhaps to engage in a friendlier manner and consider the issues as if they hold some importance, even if they're somewhat outside of the primary objective.

Edit: On that note, the word "complain" is thrown around ridiculously loosely in this game (loading screens, forum sections, word of mouth, etc.), and it holds such a negative connotation that, by its very use, it discourages people from bothering to state any issues or wanting to talk to anybody. I won't deny that I can get on a rant about some things, but sending any sort of feedback or stating an issue should not immediately be deemed as "complaining." Sort of like saying "quit whining" or sarcastically stating, "Please, keep complaining, I love it." But maybe this is a little off-topic.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 07:22:42 pm by Suno_Regin »

bilbous

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2014, 08:36:03 pm »
It is not impossible to get your point across but for something like you are talking about a forum post might be better than talking one on one with a dev. Sometimes it takes a few people to see what you are saying to notice and contribute their own point of view. Sometimes what we are expressing in a one on one setting isn't the best way it can be expressed. We know what we are talking about but other people from different background might interpret what we are saying in a completely different way than what we mean.

I would not take your quotation as a definitive no, never, can't happen, as much as I've heard what you have said but it does not seem to be a problem to me, go find support for your ideas elsewhere and maybe it will be expressed in a manner that I can better understand. Are you really asking me to rewrite x, y, z just because you don't like it? There is no guarantee that if you do get more support that anything will change but perhaps if I better understand your objections I'll be better able to tell you why it can't change or find a way to change it that does not reinvent the wheel but is more palatable.

People call me a spammer here because I post a lot of trial balloons --as well as other less relevant stuff-- but a lot of that is Does anyone else see what I see? I certainly get odd ideas about things. Sometimes you just have to throw a lot of mud at the teflon walls until some of it sticks.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about npcs sounding 'hokey' but I guess it is the attempts to give personality to some of them such as that rathead Deelor with the funny accent, or the like. I find it kind of silly myself but we don't want them all to sound the same, that would be worse.

By all means do what you are comfortable with. I'm not posting specifically for your benefit, but for whoever can take encouragement from what I say in my response to your comments.

Suno_Regin

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2014, 08:51:02 pm »
It is not impossible to get your point across but for something like you are talking about a forum post might be better than talking one on one with a dev. Sometimes it takes a few people to see what you are saying to notice and contribute their own point of view. Sometimes what we are expressing in a one on one setting isn't the best way it can be expressed. We know what we are talking about but other people from different background might interpret what we are saying in a completely different way than what we mean.

I would not take your quotation as a definitive no, never, can't happen, as much as I've heard what you have said but it does not seem to be a problem to me, go find support for your ideas elsewhere and maybe it will be expressed in a manner that I can better understand. Are you really asking me to rewrite x, y, z just because you don't like it? There is no guarantee that if you do get more support that anything will change but perhaps if I better understand your objections I'll be better able to tell you why it can't change or find a way to change it that does not reinvent the wheel but is more palatable.

People call me a spammer here because I post a lot of trial balloons --as well as other less relevant stuff-- but a lot of that is Does anyone else see what I see? I certainly get odd ideas about things. Sometimes you just have to throw a lot of mud at the teflon walls until some of it sticks.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean about npcs sounding 'hokey' but I guess it is the attempts to give personality to some of them such as that rathead Deelor with the funny accent, or the like. I find it kind of silly myself but we don't want them all to sound the same, that would be worse.

By all means do what you are comfortable with. I'm not posting specifically for your benefit, but for whoever can take encouragement from what I say in my response to your comments.

Guess I'll just quote the whole thing and respond in parts.

The earlier instance I cited regarding my previous attempts at feedback was actually from a time when it was asked in gossip whether anybody had any suggestions or feedback to give. I can't say how many people were online to see what I posted about NPCs in response to this offer, especially considering they were posting their own things at the same time unrelated to the discussion at hand, but very rarely have I actually tried to engage in one-on-ones with these issues. Maybe I should just throw out a forum post every time I see something, but I feel that it encourages a lot of the behavior that TheAuthor was mentioning, where the whole "volunteer" bandwagon comes into play and nothing gets done because it's either not worth fixing or everybody is a volunteer so it'll never get done and you should just be happy with the way it is.

That being said, the NPC thing is very widespread. Deelor is maybe one instance of what I would consider a fairly decent character, oddly enough. He's different and quirky in a way that I can believe. Levrus (the old Levrus) was the same way; but then, somebody wrote the Way quests, and Levrus changed from an old, busy magician without much time to speak who could manage to crack a joke every once in a while to some raving idiot whom I can't possibly imagine having a real-life conversation with. That's just one example, and everybody cites Levrus for different reasons, I know, but this is mine: it's his acting, not his long, drawn-out text, that bothers me. The old Levrus had a personality that I could get behind, almost cynical in nature, and you can still see it reflected in some of the slightly older quests, but the new Levrus and the other NPCs that cropped up around the same time as him are silly, at best. That's a harsh criticism, but I want to feel immersed, and I'm sure others do, too; the acting breaks that immersion with its trying-too-hard delivery.

bilbous

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2014, 09:28:38 pm »
Hmm well yes. Levrus is annoying. I don't really expect too much from the npcs. I find questing, by its very nature, to be pretty OOC. It is a means to an end. I don't really understand immersion either. How can npcs be in character or immersive when they are purely scripted? You can't chat them up or have obscure conversations with them. You can only follow the script.

It just goes to show how hard it is to find common ground sometimes. It is an unfortunate fact of life that many of the early dialog writers are gone, and it isn't always easy to fill those shoes. It doesn't seem that there are personality sketches made for the npcs that can be used to keep their characters consistent. I'm sure the devs try to do their best. It might actually be better if levrus wasn't the clearinghouse for the way quests and each way took care of their own recruiting. That might be the sort of approach that would resonate.

Well I'm all over the place now. I apologize if I have strayed too far from the topic at hand.

TheAuthor

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2014, 06:21:17 am »
I gave settings a stab and it really wasn't that bad.

IRC didn't always work for me time-wise, so I used forum messages as needed to bridge the gaps.

Working on a team project like this is about helping the project to achieve it's goals. If you are more interested in achieving your own personal goals at the expense of the project, then that's not really useful to the team or project. If there is some overlap so that helping the team with its goals also helps you with your personal goals, then it's mutually beneficial and everyone wins. An example of this would be getting some practice with writing, art or development in return for offering your work.

As for using stuff from other sites, or not meeting the expected quality, that's just part of meeting the project's requirements. Leaning to produce quality work that meets expectations is important whether its for a leisure project like this or for your career.

One of the nice things about the PS team is that you are not pressured for work as you would be in the workplace. Things seem to move at a fairly slow pace, which works well for folks like myself who are busy in real life and have a hard time finding continuous time to work on side projects.

I've heard a lot of bitching about people just *handing over* their precious work for... for FREE. That's free as in, "I'm not getting the million dollars that my precious ancient Nolthrir poem or 3d stick with leaf and berry would land me elsewhere." It's not like we're sawing off arms and legs... and fingers.. and giving them away for FREE.

You contribute stuff for several reasons, such as:

* To help improve the game for yourself and everyone else.
* To enjoy being able to see your work in the game and others enjoying it.
* To give back. We've all played the game on Talad's dime. Why not give something back?
* To get practice at doing what we do.

Well, I understand and I've been told, many times, the exact arguments you mention.

Let me first mention my feelings about your post. Sorry if I offend or anything. I have a harsh writing style, I know.

- IRC and Forum messages are both not as good as the plethora of project management methods available. Forum threads become bloated fast, are relatively time-consuming to manage and offer no effective way of uploading large amounts of objects, previews, images, music etc.

IRC is faster, but lacks the ability to send and receive messages when a person isn't online, it doesn't have a any project management functions (not even a simple to-do list easily accessible for the managers), and everything is said temporarily before it fades into the logs. Finally it also lacks an easy way to upload large amounts of objects, previews, images or even large amounts of text. It's simply the plainest thing out there.

- The tradeoff of 'Receiving experience' in return for 'Doing work for the PS team' argument is not realistic. There are a million other ways somebody can get experience without the constrictive (setting-)rules and regulations that apply to anything you submit. Anybody that wants to become good in writing or drawing will eventually cut out the PS middle-man so they can freely express themselves.

- Expecting quality is reasonable, but the way how low quality objects/textures are dismissed until considered good enough kills motivation (Rework after rework is a killer of motivation) Why not accept the object/texture outright and place the object/texture in a public place where it can be improved by others at another time? Then you won't have to return to the same boring subject ten times and lose all your motivation to do so along the way.

- A low-pressure project such as this is great for those who are working hard and have little time... But does this mean the development process is designed to attract and retain people that have little time to spend on PS? And thus prefer a low-pressure project? Isn't this a critical oversight?

And why can't a project be low-pressure whilst actually progressing? By working together, using management tools and using all the available (wo-)manpower, in all it's forms, in all it's qualities, whenever it becomes available?

- Finally, the motivational factors you've mentioned. The reasons why people help:

* To help improve the game for yourself and everyone else.
* To enjoy being able to see your work in the game and others enjoying it.
* To give back. We've all played the game on Talad's dime. Why not give something back?
* To get practice at doing what we do.

These are all internal motivational factors. These all rely on the mentality that the person has undying love for the project and the belief that the project HAS to work. This is not something you can ask from people that haven't got any reason to do this yet.

The first two factors, improving the game and the ability to see(enjoy, experience) what you've done are basically the same. They rely on the notion that you have love for PS and actually care that they are used/placed in-game. However, this excludes the majority of recruits: Unconvinced people that are repelled by the slow and tedious process of actually getting your stuff in the game. The people that remain already have much love for the game. But how can you grow a culture that trains people to have an undying love for PS when the condition to be accepted in that culture is to have an undying love for PS?

The third factor... well... Realistically, nobody who joins today, yesterday or last month will really care whether they give anything back to Talad. They do not know the guy, they do not know how the system operates. Why should they care? Because they are inherently 'good' people?

And the fourth... What if you're already really, really good at what you do? Do you still want the experience for experience's sake?

Personally, I believe the greatest problem is the culture surrounding the development team. On the one hand they desperately ask the community to help, whilst on the other refuse to change a culture which is rigged toward attracting people, with little to no experience in their respective fields, have little time to spend and already have to be somewhat fanatical about the game.

It's not a culture of innovation, team-work, permanent self-improvement and out-of-the-box thinking. It's a culture of traditional top-down management and 'this-is-how-it's-done'-isms.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now. I've said all the above and again, it will probably sound harsher than if I would say it. I'll move on to the part where you can rip me to shreds based on my suggestions.

What do I believe needs to be changed
* There needs to be one volunteer that is dedicated to welcoming new recruits and sending them off to their respective leaders. They will seek out every complaint, thought, idea or feeling the recruit has. They will also act as a guardian and advocate for the recruits idea's, so that the recruit will feel welcomed, valued and understood.

* IRC, Forum. Keep them, but have a third management tool method available, capable of sending, accepting, completing and storing tasks and messages whether you are online or not. Preferably with a method of uploading several types of data. This can then be used to manage the new recruits instead of Email or IRC. I do not mean the library, the wiki or the Nexus. I mean a dedicated team and project management tool. This will also keep the workload for the recruitment volunteer at a minimum.

* All the information gathered by the Recruitment-volunteer in the management-tool will be quantified, stored and made into reports. This is to understand the motivation of recruits and so that the system can be adjusted accordingly and what could be improved in the team, backed by numbers rather than opinions.

* The notion 'Planeshift is not a democracy' should be killed right here, right now. Whilst I understand that PS is managed as a company, even managers of Fortune-500 companies (actually, especially those) actually listen to their employees. 'Planeshift is not a democracy' kills any innovation, any free thought that any recruit (or member) might bring into the development. It kills progress, it kills motivation and results in the loss of new recruits.

* The notion that people should be thankful to receive experience in exchange for working for this project should be removed from our collective memory. Instead, people should be thankful to be working in such a supportive collective that values the person work (in a way) regardless of its quality. This means accepting almost any work into a central database. If the quality is bad, the offending items will be shelved for improvement. If it is truly horrible, at least the recruit had his chance. But most importantly, the recruit will be kept exactly as busy with new things as he/she wants to be at the quality he/she can provide.

This way.
1. The recruit is less likely to leave the team on his/her own because of the (lack of) feedback he/she receives.
2. You can quickly produce as much content as possible in the few days that a volunteer has the highest amount of motivation, before the person recedes back into their normal life.
3. Give the next artist the choice: To rework or create from scratch, possibly saving them minutes to hours of work.

* In combination with the above, adjust any requirement to join the team to zero. Anybody (18+) should be capable of joining. It is simply not our place to demand anything from the volunteers at the start and it deters people who otherwise could become constructive members. Instead, the team should be a place where new recruits (some without skills) are trained and formed into advocates of the game.

New recruits should get the opportunity to first grow the love for a team that has their back, then the work they need to complete and only finally, the entire Planeshift project.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not saying this is the end-all, be-all. I'm not saying this is the golden key. I'm saying that clinging on to the notion that what we currently have is 'working' is detrimental to the entire project. I'm saying a system isn't and should never be 'working' because only when you admit its broken in some way, you can improve it.

But those are my ideas on the matter. Who would be the Recruitment-volunteer to set all this in motion? I don't know. It could be me, but only if I get a type of guarantee that people will at least have some willingness to test-drive my ideas.

Extra reading:
http://www.amanet.org/training/articles/The-Four-Factors-of-Motivation.aspx
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 06:31:14 am by TheAuthor »

Taya

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2014, 12:50:33 pm »
Based on my experiences - I've seen development prospects walk in and do well and gain from the experience. I've also seen people walk in and quite quickly and easily change the direction of certain things. And then on the other hand I've seen prospects who annoy everyone because they make judgements without seeing the whole picture and because they seem to think they are better than and know more about the game than anyone else. Does this mean their criticism is 100% useless or misplaced? No. There are issues and there will always be issues because [insert all the things others have already said] and some of them may be possible to improve on. But generally there is a time and a way to communicate those issues and, if it's not done well, it shouldn't be too surprising if a dev limits their communication with people who are basically telling them "everything you're doing is wrong and even though I've only been here a day I clearly know better than you so change everything!" (Exaggeration yes, but it should give the idea.)

In the end, so much is down to how a person presents things.

If you want to help you should be:
1 - realistic about your expectations. Don't expect immediate access to everything or to be given ultra important projects to work on right away. But do expect to be given a fair chance to become useful and to see your work in game if you stick with it.
2 - honest about how much time you have and what we should expect from you. It's completely possible to contribute even if you don't have much free time, but it's best if the devs know this in advance when possible.
3 - cooperative. You usually won't change things unless you work with and then from within them. If you want to change how something is done, approach it slowly and be positive. Remember everything is a two way process. Suggestions and criticisms should be possible from either side so long as they are presented politely.

I recommend spending some time talking to one of the devs in the area you might be interested in before committing as well. Find out if it works for 'both' sides before jumping in. I've known a lot of people who have said they'd love to help but they are scared they won't be good enough or worried they don't have enough time - but you won't know this unless you look into it.


Closing note, just so that false impressions aren't left to stand as fact - IRC and forums are not the only tools used by the developers. Just because access to everything isn't handed out immediately doesn't mean nothing else is ever used.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 12:54:24 pm by Taya »

Pierre

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2014, 01:00:49 am »
If anything Taya proves the points made by TheAuthor.  Basically saying if a proto-dev situation doesn't work out, it is the proto-dev's fault for failing to present correctly.

Not impressed.

People skills matter here, in addition to tech and game skills.  While I think that is part of the point Taya is trying to make (although it was just made, from the other side of the fence), making that point while treating prospects without respect and without taking their opinions on board is a complete failure to have people skills.

I thank all the gods under the crystal that the devs I know do not behave this way, and I apologize if I offend any of them with my criticism of Taya's post.

But I feel very strongly that if I were a prospect dev, after reading that reply, I would want nothing to do with Taya or any part of the game Taya has control over.

LigH

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2014, 01:52:02 am »
Regarding Taya's impressions ... I believe there are different situations in different times and different teams. I was involved in the development as 2D/3D artist some time ago, and I was not too happy with the situation when I was given the task of the Art Asset Manager: In these times, there was a lack of communication between departments and from the superior of the own department. I would have expected to get notified for a review before releasing art; if that was the case, I would have had a chance to reject some technical mistakes before causing issues in game (most prominent example: the recently fixed wrong mipmaps of transparent textures like fences, grass tufts, trees ... I never had the chance to fix them correctly due to a lack of access to the original material, before conversion to DDS). Finally, I was dismissed and blamed for a lack of activity, despite asking for months to provide required information and assets to manage. Similar problems already appeared while working on some art, when I misunderstood the desired attributes of items by only reading a brief item description, which could have been avoided by knowing the brief plot of the quest this item belongs to (here as example, "Ruby Ring" is not a metal ring with a small piece of ruby, but a whole ring cut out of a big ruby).

To put the criticism above into perspective, it was briefly after a lot of trust into department leading developers got lost because one of them went on an own pace; this lack of trust separated departments, nobody except the leader should have known the whole concept, and especially not have access to all the original material, the treasury of the game. Since that, this former developer tried to develop an own game, but that project appears to be less active than PlaneShift today.

Contributors, prospects and developers can only work successfully if they can trust each other and think for and together with each other, share opinions and facts, and sense the requirements of staff they give tasks to. Even though I am less involved today, I believe this is much better today than it was when asset management didn't work due to a lack of cooperation — due to a lack of trust.

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Taya

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2014, 02:18:46 am »
Pierre - I don't really mind if you criticise me. I have always been open to it and I've found that being able to take it generally means that when I deliver it in turn I am listened to. And that's been both as a player in the past approaching devs with ideas, and now as someone working on the game offering and taking criticism in turn.

What I am saying is that issues identified in the thread are often caused by player expectations and that it's healthier for both sides if those expectations are realistic before someone contributes. It is completely possible to contribute in a way that works for both the game and the person contributing, but everyone has different requirements, different ways of working, different availability, different personalities and different responsibilities outside the game that are more important. And some tasks need more or less interaction and coordination between a player submitting work and the dev team. There has to be the right balance depending on what the player wants to offer and what they expect back.

It's better for everyone to talk in advance to see if this balance is likely to be there. And any one person may find it is or isn't with different developers, again because everyone has their own requirements and own way of working.

Basically I am recommending talk and discussion before a person jumps in with huge expectations that they can change everything about the game. A person can surely change some things though in time.

I've also seen prospects get better treatment in the time since I have been here and it's something I've said I want to see more of.

Pierre

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Re: Commmunity involvement
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2014, 02:46:03 am »
Taya, understood, and appreciate the calm diffusive response.

The issue to me is that there were many valid well articulated points made by TheAuthor, none of which were addressed.

Just "adjust expectations."  Yes, that is important, more than that, it is critical. 

It is also critical for someone on the dev team, if this thread is of interest to them, to address the issues, make people listening in feel like if they join as prospects, the timeline of response might be better.

That their proposals for changes might get heard, and if their work is not appropriate and/or not up to par, that suggestions for improvement or possible shelving might happen in a motivating way, in a non-discouraging way, and in a reasonable time frame.

It's better to have no response at all than to have a response that proves the point being made against becoming a prospect.