Author Topic: Playing PlaneShift  (Read 2880 times)

Eliseth

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Playing PlaneShift
« on: April 12, 2008, 04:02:04 am »
For years there has been the on-going debate of RP vs game mechanics or leveling. It's become clear to me that a lot of you do not know how to use the one aspect without compromising the other. Let's take a quick look at how most people would play planeshift.

A new player creates a character, explores a bit, sees high level characters running about and says "I wish I was that good at fighting" and promptly goes of to level their skills. But after being in the game for a while, they begin to find RPing to be a little fun, so they start roleplaying, they enjoy it a lot, start neglecting their leveling and eventually become frustrated because they want to level their character but if they do they don't have time to roleplay. Eventually they decide to do one or the other, but get bored with the monotony of grinding or with the same old "Greetings, lovely day we're having" type RPs and stop playing altogether. (Note: I'm not saying this how we all play, some of us never PL, some of us never RP, and some of us never get bored with either ;) )

Now lets look at some facts. Roleplaying is, in essence, living your characters life. Leveling is increasing your character skills. But here's where the trouble lies, because the speed at which time runs when RPing is a lot slower than when we level. Let me explain. If you think about real life, we as human being also would like to increase our skills, but we also have to live life while doing that, and that is why it takes most our lives to master our skills, and sometimes we never even get to that point. Now you come to planeshift, which is a roleplaying game, which means, as I said, you live your characters life. You want to increase you characters skills, but now instead of living life as you do that, you try to level your skills all at once in the shortest space of time. I mean if you're roleplaying an 18 years old, she will certainly take a lot longer to master sword fighting, for example, than a couple of months.

This is why we can't have a balance of leveling and rping, because both aspects run at completely different speeds of time, if you know I mean. So, how should we play planeshift? Bare in mind, this is my opinion, which is completely theoretical, because I can't see people doing it this way on a scale that would make it realistic. What you should do, is roleplay as normal. Now lets say for example you wanted to become a mage, if you were really learning those skills it would take years, so don't rush your leveling, it's really not necessary. Now I'm not saying that it must also take years, that would be silly, but it certainly doesn't have to take a couple of months. I've been playing for two years and my characters have still not leveled anywhere close to what others have, yet I'm still enjoying and playing both aspects of the game, when my character has time to level, she will level, if she has a family crisis, she'll deal with that first, if there's a friend in need, she'll cancel her training to help.

The problem is that most players who start planeshift are used to normal pvp mmorpgs, in which it is quite normal and indeed necessary to max your character quickly so that you can actually compete with other players. PlaneShift is a completely different type of game, it is really not necessary to level your skills as quickly. Sure it's impressive to take on ulbers and pwn other players in a duel, but its even more impressive if you have a realistic, unique and interesting character with an equally unique roleplaying style. Your skills make a part of your character, and only a part. In this game your character's personality and history make up an even bigger part, and which will determine whether or not your character is fun to roleplay with.

This is completely open to discussion though, since everyone I'm sure will have an opinion about it. Please, tell me what you think, maybe tell us your way of balancing the two aspects of the game.

hitancrias

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2008, 05:15:15 am »
Leveling and RPing should not be regarded as two different aspects of the game. RPing means that everything a character does is in character. Extensive training sessions may perfectly be part of that. I advocate the no numbers concept. Hide all skill levels from the players, so the game is no fun anymore for players who don't understand the difference between IC and OOC (= power levelers).

Edit: about the time element: I think its best to take the skill levels serious,  not how long you've been around. Not taking the game mechanics seriously can ruin RP. What if someone with the status of a master fighter gets killed by a clacker, how should we act?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 05:31:52 am by hitancrias »
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Nikodemus

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2008, 05:42:15 am »
I agree with Eliseth. But it is also truth that leveling is supposed to be part of RPing.... except... the way it is done and mechanically performed by players, makes them to do that and not speak a word. The moment you start writing a sentence to start some actual RPing with other people around, that moment you stop leveling up, so at this stage of PS with how levelling is done, you don't really RP.
While i could RP (interacting with other people/ strting some conversation, which possibly lead to some adventure or simply something interesting while digging) while mining, I find it barely possible while fighting.
- Spawning is OOC
- taking swords of your 100 killed opponents a hour
- they always die without any suprise or consequence
- they always coming back
- merchants always buying your loot like they never had enough
and so on.

There is the problem that actual RPing/interacting with other people is indeed taking more time than mechanical leveling up, making money without saying a word to anyone at all. IMO if game mechnics slow down the leveling and money making in future, people will find more time to interact with other people.
But then some players will complain than skilling is so slow and they are nowhere near being a good fighter/mage/or someone and they need to, because they just created that character, who is supposed to be superior gladiator...
But there is that advice. leveling is happening by the way, there is no rush, there will be always better people than you and it needs to take time before you will be like them, because they did it before too. Heroes don't appear from nowhere.
Some people don't want to wait, including some good RPers, but because of that devs make the combat training the way it is, mostly OOC, without a stop from a talk, mechanical. It shouldn't be.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 05:45:35 am by Nikodemus »



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Kaerli

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2008, 06:34:30 am »
I agree 100% with Hitancrias on this one.  Leveling a character can and should be worked into your overall RP; for instance, I grind Kaerli because she ICly grinds herself (seriously), yet that is only one half of her training.  The other half is expressed ICly as sparring matches and isn't (wholly) representable in game mechs, but still contributes heavily to her training.

Donari Tyndale

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2008, 09:39:14 am »
To be short, the problem is called NPC. Not the combatable ones, but those NPCs that buy loot and train. Interaction with them in the process of selling or training does not involve any roleplay, and never will. I've stopped trading with NPCs, especially since the price was based upon stats. If I want to get rid of things, they go into the forge. Training with NPCs is far too mind numbing and not worth my time. I need to camp thousands of mobs to get the PPs, then venture to a NPC, make him richer than the octarchy, get rid of my PPs. Afterwards I'd need to tape down my short cut casting button to level up my Azure Way skill, for example.

I've thought about this quite a while, and came up with an idea. Everything needed for player training is already there.
1. /setskill
2. A time delay.
First of all, the /setskill command would be modified a bit into a /train command. This grant the target a +1 in a certain skill, and if afterward both the trainer and pupil get a time delay, which would increase in relation to the pupil's skill levelm for training, it can't be abused. Of course, new players would be tempted to simply get a /train every time the timer expires, but this system would give roleplayers an alternative. Powerlevellers have always been there, and if they'd powerlevel with this system, I'd care the same as if they powerlevel with the old one.

For example, Donari got fighting lessons by Kaerli (Yes, Donari has been wielding a sword.). The huge amount of tactical knowledge she gained through that is worth nothing. She can't even fight better according to the game mechanics. If Kaerli had training abilities, she could simply have typed /train Donari, and it'd have had some effect.

Eliseth

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2008, 10:33:06 am »
Leveling and RPing should not be regarded as two different aspects of the game. RPing means that everything a character does is in character. Extensive training sessions may perfectly be part of that.

Thats just it, it shouldn't be two separate aspects, but the fact of the matter is that they are. I think Donari's idea will solve this whole issue once and for all. RP is about interacting with the ps world, and it doesn't matter how many phrases we get the NPCs to respond to, we'll never really be able to interact with them and therefore leveling will always be separate from RPing. All I'm giving is a suggestion on how to balance the aspects out until a better system is developed.

I advocate the no numbers concept. Hide all skill levels from the players, so the game is no fun anymore for players who don't understand the difference between IC and OOC (= power levelers).

This type of system will only make players frustrated, what we need to do is discover why players want to increase their numbers so badly, and then remove that reason.  I believe the reason is as simple as people just wanting to be better than other people, a flaw which is all too common in human beings, and a flaw which will be around for quite a few hundred years to come. This is why I like Donari's idea so much, because PLing on the system he suggests would take longer than any PLer would be willing to wait. It will roleplayers a chance to keep up with the levelers while still getting in plenty of RP time and it will, in essence, merge leveling and rp.

Edit: about the time element: I think its best to take the skill levels serious,  not how long you've been around. Not taking the game mechanics seriously can ruin RP. What if someone with the status of a master fighter gets killed by a clacker, how should we act?

I didn't say we shouldn't take it seriously, I just said we shouldn't rush it. And as Niko said, heros don't just come from no where, if a player wants to have superior skill, he/she must work for it.

Prolix

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2008, 07:31:10 pm »
Well, such a radical system change would necessarily require a complete character wipe otherwise those fully trained characters could very well just train their alts interminably and new players would get no training at all except out of charity and/or servitude. Then when it is just the blind leading the halt nobody could train because there would be nobody that could train them. In the first case scenario where no wipe occurs how would the masters ever learn any new techniques in their mastery, who would teach them? Sounds like it needs more thought.

I much prefer my idea in a previous thread here and think it would be more effective. It glosses over the grind and maximizes opportunities for role play. We are likely to end up with something that looks like what we have though.

Donari Tyndale

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2008, 04:40:52 am »
You can reward a high skill level, as known as "Exclusive apprenticeship to a master craftsman", to someone who does well in a GM event. And I mean really well, not just standing around.

Prolix

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2008, 11:26:06 am »
Well that might be somewhat helpful, but I have to say that in the two years I've been around I have yet to receive any reward for participating in GM events and have not been around when one was happening, as far as I know, for at least eight months. Most of the ones I did come across were pretty laggy and chaotic. I would hate to rely on such a mechanism and it seems to me to be one that reinforces the server elite. Supposing this was in effect how could someone with a completely obnoxious character advance? They would be unlikely to be rewarded for an event or find someone willing to train them. Are people not allowed to be anti-social?

If the npcs are not needed for implementing the game mechanics they are not needed at all. Why should they give out quests? Why should they give out information? You are calling for their complete removal are you not?

Donari Tyndale

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2008, 12:09:00 pm »
Every character should be able to train himself by doing, though in that case he would need to do all the theory by himself, which would slow him down. Do you think it is realistic that shady and anti social characters can train with NPCs?

NPCs are not needed, they make things easier, game mechanics wise. But sometimes this relief of burden for the players means a damage to roleplay.

Noriin

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2008, 12:25:00 pm »
The idea of players training other players I've always liked.

However, and at least in the state the game is now at, I don't think that pondering about removing NPCs completely is something that would work.
What's good of the NPCs is that they are always there for you to interact with. Players on the other hand will get busy in RL and may be missing for a few days, weeks or even quit the game for whatever reason. What happens when there is nobody online that can do what you need then?
At some points of the day, the average player count is below 60 and punishing the ones who play then by giving them less chances doesn't sound fair to me.

Given that the player count may raise eventually, then removing or making NPCs less relevant (can't imagine devs are about to remove quests after all the time put into them) may be something to discuss about.


EDIT: Also, any NPC spreads quite a lot of information about the game's setting. Wouldn't like to loose that either.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 12:27:46 pm by Noriin »

Durwyn

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2008, 12:47:26 pm »
Given that the player count may raise eventually, then removing or making NPCs less relevant (can't imagine devs are about to remove quests after all the time put into them) may be something to discuss about.

NPCs can just not /train at all but still request help :)
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Nikodemus

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2008, 12:49:51 pm »
Here is one flaw in player training. It waaaaay to fast way of training.
We got used through single player games, that you develop your character through doing certain actions along your journey.
However in multiplayer very many people goal is just to train, it is not the journey. The journey is hapening along the way of training, if at all.
So, even though training through killing spawning opponents is a little more enjoying from game mechanics perspective, everyone would now train sparring with another player.

Well, not telling about other issues and possible solutios for them i will give a solution for this one.
If allow the sparring, limit it. Limit it a lot. For instance you can train with one person only a little after that little, you gain nothing. You have to find another partner and then another if you wish to continue.
But, you can train with the same people later on, if their skill change noticerably, and possibly give a timeout of 1 week, after which the two people may again train for that "little"
Because otherwise training will happen in a blink of an eye.
It is also good to develop the new trainin system together with the one, which come in place of PPs based system, which we have now and which i'm sure would laugh at us if it could.



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Prolix

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2008, 01:07:09 pm »
@donari
I do not think there is anything remotely realistic about a fantasy massively multiplayer online role playing game. Trying to squeeze one into such restrictive constraints seems rather pointless. Arguing that the npcs are unrealistic is like arguing whether a pink elephant is hot pink or blush colored. Like it or not some game conventions in a genre come about because nobody can figure out how to make better mechanisms work economically. It is not for lack of trying, that is just the way it is.

If any character can train by doing then every character should train by doing, there should be only one mechanism and not one for popular people and one for everyone else. Having npc trainers is a singular method and I think that is good. I would appreciate hearing what you thought of the system I proposed although it seems you didn't bother to look at it. It would seem to meet your concerns although it would still require a minimum of  interaction with npc trainers.

I do not like the idea of player training as it is inherently discriminatory.


Donari Tyndale

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Re: Playing PlaneShift
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2008, 01:25:33 pm »
Player training is optional, as a replacement for NPC training. Eventually one should be able to train by himself, by simply doing an action over and over. Furthermore, I'd appreciate a minimum amount of realism, as that is what I expect of a roleplay game. If I wouldn't care about realism, I'd go and play WoW.