The Extinction of a Race

[LigH]

There can be only one reason to remove the most interesting race from playability:

To repel the advanced roleplayers from the game, to make it mainstream and unimportant.

You know which kind of players chose to play a Diaboli, and how.

When I started playing, there was a statement that PlaneShift was made to support roleplaying.

This decision betrays it. And it confirms everyone who already left.
__

1. Plague/disease - Half-breeds in nature might be more susceptible to disease or have other congenital traits that makes them less likely to survive in the long run.

Ynnwn are the half-breeds between Diaboli and one of the elven races (Dermorian or Nolthrir).

[Mask]

There will be those, who leave this game because they are frustrated because of this, and it is their right.
There will be those, who struggle on for whatever reasons, and it is their right to do so.

However, I cannot understand the tendency to create this kind of frustration on both sides which can be seen here. As LigH has pointed out, decisions like this betray the whole philosophy of the project and confirm the doubts and arguments of those who left already. If this project wants to go anywhere at all, decisions have to be made - and yes, some of these decisions were, are, and will be wrong. The question is in which magnitude these bad decisions hamper the whole project and damage its core fundamental: the fun of roleplaying in a nice setting with good mechanics and an even better community.

This is/was a fun project, and fun while it lasted. Make your decisions, everyone - ask yourself why you do them, how you justify them and what's the outcome of the decision. All this drama and trouble is taking energy away that could be used to solve problems.

More I don't have to say. Enjoy your choice.

So long,
Mask

[Aensor]

Well, what Hitler did was worse: I mean, they even had the models for the race!

How dare you.. In all seriousness, you should leave Yliakum for a while and get to realize some things about life. Shame on you.

[Koios]

1. Plague/disease - Half-breeds in nature might be more susceptible to disease or have other congenital traits that makes them less likely to survive in the long run.

Ynnwn are the half-breeds between Diaboli and one of the elven races (Dermorian or Nolthrir).

You are of course totally right. Fixed and sorry for the mix-up. But that must leave the Ynnwn to be changed to a nonhybrid? Or are we going by the assumption that they were more fitted for life in Yliakum and in such a way made the Diabolis extinct a long time ago?

[Earowo]

I dont understand..why would talad go through the trouble of removing a favored race, that is all important to the game, simply becuase it has no model..
Doesnt he know its more work to remove the race than it is to keep it? All he is doing, is forcing the settings team, and the devs who work quests, to rewrite, or add onto Every associated quest or Backstory around PS.
Even LigH, whom is probably one of the most valued person on the Testers team disagrees with the decision, I understand this is Talads game, but at the same time its not, Its everyones game, when he published this game, for everyone to enjoy for free, he made it our right to make this game a home. To take somthing like that away, is unresonable on every aspect..
Now I have nothing against Talad personally, But I've heard about a lot of stupid desicions that led to bad outcomes...Half the dev team leaving, half the players leaving, things like that, somthing like this is gonna spike that exact same thing..
Personally i think EVERYONE who has, wants, or was planning a Diobli character Should continue to RP as a diobli, irregardless of weather the mechanics SAY they are a ynwnn or elf or whatever. Take things under your control, you are the users, you deserve the right, to have a say in these desicions.

[verden]

Not letting the players play devils anymore, just devil spawn, eh? I guess that is appropriate. He did say they would be removed as a playable race. Not just removed. I would be interested in hearing the reason though.

[Talad]

Posting private messages on the board is not a great idea. You just lost the ability to have any more private answers from me Oronec.

Diaboli is just one of the races, not the most favored or preferred, also it's a race which has major overlaps with Ynnwn, considering both have about the same skin colors, horns, tails as Ynnwn are derived from Diaboli. Surely those are not identical, but still very similar. We want to reduce the number of playable races so we can more easily expand their background. So less races with higher quality. About roleplay that's exactly one of the reasons to reduce the number of races, at this point we don't have the resources to maintain so many, and if we want to create proper histories, lore, tools, items, weapons, ... we need a smaller set. The work we are doing on the history and background of the races is what triggered the removal. The removal will fit into the overall storyline anyway, and Diaboli will stay in the history of Yliakum, until about 430AY (to be determined). The players who are currently playing a Diaboli will be migrated to Ynnwn. They can surely roleplay any traits of Diaboli, considering either their mother or father was a Diaboli. They can also pretend to have more Diaboli blood than dermorian. So I really don't see a big impact. PlaneShift is under development and open to players at the same time, so things may change.

[Suno_Regin]

You don't see a big impact? Every post here just about has told you straight-up the big impact it has. You've just lost players, Talad. The differences between Diaboli and Ynnwn are very grand if you actually look at what I'm assuming you yourself posted on the website. To name a few:

Ynnwns - Red Skin, tall, tails and horns are RARE, sensitive to precious metals

Diaboli: Oily black skin, short-ish, tails and horns ALWAYS, sensitive to holy areas

If you want to remove a race, remove Ylians. Why do I say this? Because Ylians really have no lore at all in PlaneShift if you actually look. Xacha have been the only mentionable humans (and this is in part because of their attachment to Laanx), and they're both humans. Xacha can be PS's versions of humans, with pale skin and whatever other features are unique only to them. The dwarven clans are certainly interesting, the elves are too, but removing the Diaboli is a kick in the teeth to many devoted players. Not a single person here has supported your decision except for those wishing to be the devil's advocates in posting "reasons how it could have happened" rather than "this change is a smart thing to do and should have no reason to be argued against"

[Koios]

Not a single person here has supported your decision except for those wishing to be the devil's advocates in posting "reasons how it could have happened" rather than "this change is a smart thing to do and should have no reason to be argued against"

As I said twice in the post, I don't want it to happen and I agreed with Sen in his post about this matter and I do with others that have followed as well. No exception. The RP suggestions was my own response to an asked question. Again, as I said, if it has to be done (which is out of our hands, really), do it in a way the characters lost deserve. 

[bilbous]

I don't know as I have ever met a Diaboli character, I'm sure I must have over the last years, then again I do not personally know any female Klyros so they could be removed too and I wouldn't notice. There have been quite a few new models over the years, which is good, but nothing is set in stone in a game that is in development. Personally I think the ynnwn model is pretty ugly which is one reason why the one character I have using it never sees the light of day. I might like being a squat black demon as opposed to a tall red devil but such is not to be. I want my krannic leathery skin back but doubt that is going to happen anytime, nor do I think I am likely to get a texture for the leather armor that was never developed because kran didn't need it.

One thing this fiasco says to me is that the dev team ought to be more transparent, this could have been mentioned in one of the meet the devs meetings once it had been decided upon. Leaving it to get out this way is unfortunate. I do not follow the svn developments nor do a lot of people but there are those who are not part of the team who do and once it was committed to one of the branches it was essentially out of the bag.

Getting into the history then, you say that they will be removed circa 430, if I am not mistaken this is around the time of the ruins, (and the start of the octarchy?) or at any rate whatever upheaval caused the destruction of those buildings. This does not seem illogical or far-fetched as the destruction of one of the founding races could have led to the laws against racism as evident today.

What will this bring? can the ynnwn go on indefinitely before they too must die out as the one half of their bloodline gets no more infusions or was the Diaboli blood strong enough to recur within the ynnwn stock. If this is the case is there a possibility that at some future date there may be model trait modifications similar to the kran and enkidukai texture maps whereby a ynnwn model might be made to look more like its diaboli progenitor? I do understand that model size and attributes are quite a different thing from skin color but there is some precedent for different hairdos and beards that some of the humans have.

Anyway that is enough rambling for one post. It might not be entirely cohesive but then there are likely 5 new posts waiting to spur further thoughts made while I typed this out.

[Glaciusor]

Ok, I really can't describe just how angry I'm getting with decisions like these... and what happened to the dev meetings actually being useful and detailing these sorts of changes? You want our feedback, yet blatently ignore it when we give it,  and hide things you know players will object to until it's too late for their opinions to influence anything. Seriously, change after change, I've seen good people and great roleplayers leave, and now you are going to start axe-ing the other races just because you don't want to bother with the models and storyline? So what, who's next, my main char Glaciusor who is a Xacha? How about the Lemurs? Do we need 2 dwarf races?.... the fun part about this game is the diversity! This is just one more strike against the PS team. You had a great thing going for you here and you systematically are ruining it.

Newsflash, you already have a bad reputation in the gaming world, and are failing to get enough new players that can actually figure out how to play this game and still want to play it after a few days. All you are doing is making more players leave. I don't see how you intend to keep this project going if the player base is only going to keep shrinking. It's already to the point that players are leaving because there's not enough RP anymore. If you want all this hard work to be burned to ashes, then just keep ignoring all the players... after all, no players means no complaints.

[Caraick]

The player base has certainly made it's opinion known, and the posts above, and the poll in this topic speak for itself. For myself, I cannot seem to understand the logic behind the decision to delete a race, despite the unanimous player sentiment against it.  However, the player base is adaptable, and I have faith in the community that they will find new ways to work around this change.

Let the administration make the decision from here, though it would seem that the choice has already been made.  Players will leave, and players will stay, as Mask said.  The game has made it's choice, now it's time to make yours.  Though, I would do so before the thread is locked down.

-Car

[sashia_mennar]

My Main character is married to a Diabolo and has a Diabolo brother-in-law. Oops, sorry... used to have. Should I delete that character now, together with all the time spent on developing her as a person, and also her mechanical training? Thank you very much, dear Devs. Now I feel like I really matter, as a player. My RP done throughout the years obviously does, too.

Letting the Exodus happen felt like a major blow dealt to PlaneShift by its own team, or so I thought last year. I must admit now that I've been very much mistaken. There are worse things yet to come. Oh, by the way, we female Ylians have no 3D model yet. Please delete us as well? Who cares, anyway.

An open source videogame lacking some long-promised features is a thing one can easily understand and sympathize with. An open source videogame whose team seems  to be intent on humiliating and destroying the very community that makes it more than just a bunch of files in the SVN repository... is not. Sorry for my very bitter tone, I'll do my best to stay and play. No promises, though. Let the lack of care and respect flow both ways. That would be only fair, I suppose.

[MishkaL1138]

Well, what Hitler did was worse: I mean, they even had the models for the race!

How dare you... In all seriousness, you should leave Yliakum for a while and get to realize some things about life. Shame on you.

If you take everything you see on the Internet so seriously, in all seriousness, I think you should leave the Internet and get to realize some things about life. Shame on you. I won't discuss this here any further, that's what PMs are used for.

Posting private messages on the board is not a great idea. You just lost the ability to have any more private answers from me Oronec.

Maybe she wouldn't have posted it if someone didn't decide to delete a whole race out of the blue.

Diaboli is just one of the races, not the most favored or preferred, also it's a race which has major overlaps with Ynnwn, considering both have about the same skin colors, horns, tails as Ynnwn are derived from Diaboli. Surely those are not identical, but still very similar. We want to reduce the number of playable races so we can more easily expand their background. So less races with higher quality. About roleplay that's exactly one of the reasons to reduce the number of races, at this point we don't have the resources to maintain so many, and if we want to create proper histories, lore, tools, items, weapons, ... we need a smaller set. The work we are doing on the history and background of the races is what triggered the removal. The removal will fit into the overall storyline anyway, and Diaboli will stay in the history of Yliakum, until about 430AY (to be determined). The players who are currently playing a Diaboli will be migrated to Ynnwn. They can surely roleplay any traits of Diaboli, considering either their mother or father was a Diaboli. They can also pretend to have more Diaboli blood than dermorian. So I really don't see a big impact. PlaneShift is under development and open to players at the same time, so things may change.

Talad, that's the lamest excuse and solution I've ever heard. Characters choose Diaboli because they wanted to choose Diaboli. If they'd wanted to choose Ynnwn they would've done so in CC, am I not right?

One thing this fiasco says to me is that the dev team ought to be more transparent, this could have been mentioned in one of the meet the devs meetings once it had been decided upon.

You're always talking about the players helping develop the game too. I really doubt you asked all the devs what were their viewpoints on this, because they would have said no, assuming they are smart enough.

But hey, now that we're going to delete models… I'll give you a list of things you should delete too. You can start with Xacha, Lemur, male Nolthrir… And wait, you're going to delete Diaboli? Alright, so there can't be any Ynnwn either. Delete Ynnwn too. I dare you to.

A frowny smiley for you, Talad   and an upset one too  

[/quote]

[Chessire]

I really don't understand why the diaboli should be the ones to be deleted. There are two dwarven races here and their differences haven't been too clear either. And as for diavoli I had the impression they were pretty much different drom te ynnnwn, Ynnwn are huge and robust while I had the impression diaboli were more balanced in body buillt and even cute. Not to mention diavoli's charisma that makes them good artists or mages and which the ynnwn are lacking completely. I ve happened to draw diavoli at times and I ve also seen fan art from other people of the community and there is very little resemblance to the ynnwn. If it could make you consider it I'd be happy to draw more diavoli according to their description so far and send it as artwork.