Author Topic: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7  (Read 951 times)

Primordial

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General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« on: August 10, 2011, 12:42:57 pm »
I returned again to test and comment on the state of the game with the updates. It’s been a fair while, so I did what I always do: grab a weapon, hit the sewers, wander around, and take a little note here and there. The reason I go to the sewers is because it’s both familiar, and new things always seem to pop up there. It’s littered with mobs of all difficulties as things are tweaked and changed and added, and so seems a good place to gain some measure of the game.

The first thing I noted was that Hotkey (or ‘quick’ Key as it’s known) was missing. After some asking around, somebody told me how to get it back.
Issue one: The Hotkey bar should be apparent in the menu, new players, if it’s not there, will do what I did: Look at the menu and assume it doesn’t exist at all. This does not help the game.  

I suggest boosting the jump a bit. Jumping over the waterwheel things is kind of a chore when your character either jumps an inch off the ground, having become stuck on some random bit of geometry, or can’t get the requisite length to clear, what appears to be, a fairly simple obstacle of no more than two feet or so in height.  Similarly, it’s very easy to be come stuck on random objects, a shoulder can lodge in a grate, or your foot can be impaled on a pipe, all while being chased by a mob you can’t take down and this becomes frustrating.  You will die, but for all the wrong reasons.

Healing: It’s difficult to know where to stand on this one. I think natural healing of some kind could stand to be boosted a bit when you sit down. But then you can buy a fish, which heals a decent chunk of health, for five tria, so maybe not. It’s debateable.

AI behaviours still need implementing. It’s very strange, not to mention immersion breaking, being able to walk into rooms of mobs, seemingly representing colonies or packs, and have nothing happen. They sit gormless and invalid while you whack away at them. There is no aggression; the only difficulty is the difficulty spikes (and they really are spikes) for each type of mob. One type of Clacker or Compti may be easy, the next type invulnerable. The loot tables are still a little off. I killed the same claymore wielding cat-girl a tonne of times and received nothing but glass beads. The risk is minimal; the Reward is intangible or incredibly sporadic. There is absolutely no reason to group in this game, it seems. If you can stand amidst a boatload of things that can kill you without harm, but never attack, cherry-pick your targets, etc then there is no sense of danger, there no sense of adventure, there is no reason. It’s all just static.

One thing that grabbed me about the latest updates was the armour system: that’s interesting, sound similar to Dwarf Fortress’ armour system, except obviously without the in-depth physics involved. I wondered how my own armour was affecting the tide of battle while I hacked away at the Sewer denizens, and it was very strange, actually. I dual wielding axes, smithed, not very good (I made them simply so I would actually have some axes to use…) and found that I could chop Compti’s, clackers, rats and bugs, and a few of the fanatics, into pieces with no hassel at 10 axe skill, but Gobbos, Rogues, Weaver-spider-things and couple of other mobs, were utterly impervious. This was actually very strange because you would have thought an edged weapon would be less useful vs a hard shell, as opposed to what looks like leathery skin and basic clothing I the case of Gobbos and rogues and spider carapaces. Still, it’d be nice to see, in the future, armour and weaponry made from body parts like bones, teeth and claws, hides and carapaces, etc  (likewise for other creatures in the world too), although I expect that’s already on the list and scheduled for the far future.  On a side note: it was nice to see the gobbos run.
 
The major problem I encountered was death, or rather the curse at the end. I like to see penalties for death, but the way this curse works is not going to help. At all. As a Kran I had naturally high strength and could carry a lot of stuff. Dakkrus curse kicked in and I was forced to sit down. Fair enough. Ten minutes later I was getting tired and this curse had no end in sight. I could not move. I could not play the sodding game. That’s not the worst of it:

The little window that pops up to tell you are debuffed doesn’t give any information at all on what’s going on. You are stuck, for an unknown amount of time, with an affect that has you rooted to the spot, and obstructs your playing of the game.  This is bad enough, I assume when mobs are given debuffs and DoTs etc, that if it is still in this form, without any indication of what’s going on, it will become more than the game breaker it is now. Let me make this very clear: it is game breaking. Nobody at all wants to die and be told they have no choice but to stare at a screen for a completely unknown amount of time and do absolutely nothing. It’s not fun, people will just do what I did, and quit. And most, if not all, will not return.

If you want to include a penalty in your game for death, and I’m very much in support of giving a player a reason not to die, then do something that is not an obstruction to your game itself. There is no point, nobody has the time for this type of crap, it’s frustrating, the lack of information is frustrating, and it’s just a plain awful mechanic. Change it or take it out. Or else any future community you hope to have will walk out.

I think at this point it feels like a continuation from other commentaries I’ve made every few updates or so: there seems to be a base here, but it’s a very sporadic, very incomplete, and in some places cracked, base. There are a bunch of ideas and things that seem half finished and half implemented, and all the while the team continues to throw in yet more content that, invariably, ends up in a similar situation. I think that at this point it would be a good idea to adding new things all together, and focus on what you have. There is a decently sized world for the small community available. There are plenty of foundation stones to build proper content on, to expand on and do whatever. Right now it’s like you’re attempted to build the great walls of china with a hundred different plans given to a hundred different people. Go section by section, complete something and move on.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 12:49:50 pm by Primordial »

Aramara Meibi

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2011, 03:20:42 pm »
Healing: It’s difficult to know where to stand on this one. I think natural healing of some kind could stand to be boosted a bit when you sit down. But then you can buy a fish, which heals a decent chunk of health, for five tria, so maybe not. It’s debateable.

there are certain stats that increase the rate at which you recover HP

The major problem I encountered was death, or rather the curse at the end. I like to see penalties for death, but the way this curse works is not going to help. At all. As a Kran I had naturally high strength and could carry a lot of stuff. Dakkrus curse kicked in and I was forced to sit down. Fair enough. Ten minutes later I was getting tired and this curse had no end in sight. I could not move. I could not play the sodding game. That’s not the worst of it:

The little window that pops up to tell you are debuffed doesn’t give any information at all on what’s going on. You are stuck, for an unknown amount of time, with an affect that has you rooted to the spot, and obstructs your playing of the game.  This is bad enough, I assume when mobs are given debuffs and DoTs etc, that if it is still in this form, without any indication of what’s going on, it will become more than the game breaker it is now. Let me make this very clear: it is game breaking. Nobody at all wants to die and be told they have no choice but to stare at a screen for a completely unknown amount of time and do absolutely nothing. It’s not fun, people will just do what I did, and quit. And most, if not all, will not return.

If you want to include a penalty in your game for death, and I’m very much in support of giving a player a reason not to die, then do something that is not an obstruction to your game itself. There is no point, nobody has the time for this type of crap, it’s frustrating, the lack of information is frustrating, and it’s just a plain awful mechanic. Change it or take it out. Or else any future community you hope to have will walk out.

if you find yourself overburdened when debuffed due to Dakkru's Curse, there are several ways to avoiding such a problem, a certain vending machine in the DR you can sell off pretty much any loot to, and, can you believe it?!?! tria is weightless. also check out your stat window to see exactly how the spell affects you. there are buffing spells you can learn to counteract those affects. true, you can't cast spells while sitting, but if your character is knowledgeable of such spells, they can at least ask other characters around if they can help a poor kra out. considering you always pop out right behind harn's, there's usually someone slaving away at the anvil. most anvil slaves have seen the situation plenty of times before and know exactly how to remedy the situation. or just go ahead and dump your loot on the ground and guard it.
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Sarva

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2011, 03:29:42 pm »
There is storage available from some NPCs now so no real need to be running around with a lot of items in your inventory. One benefit of traveling light is you don't use up your endurance as quickly.

Primordial

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2011, 03:54:10 pm »

if you find yourself overburdened when debuffed due to Dakkru's Curse, there are several ways to avoiding such a problem, a certain vending machine in the DR you can sell off pretty much any loot to, and, can you believe it?!?! tria is weightless. also check out your stat window to see exactly how the spell affects you. there are buffing spells you can learn to counteract those affects. true, you can't cast spells while sitting, but if your character is knowledgeable of such spells, they can at least ask other characters around if they can help a poor kra out. considering you always pop out right behind harn's, there's usually someone slaving away at the anvil. most anvil slaves have seen the situation plenty of times before and know exactly how to remedy the situation. or just go ahead and dump your loot on the ground and guard it.


Circumvention is not the answer - again: a new player who doesn't get half this stuff isn't going to wait around to find out. They're just going be gone.
You shouldn't have to rely on other players just to move - again that's just plain bad mechanic design.
And 'guarding your stuff' how does that make it any different to just sitting on the ground with it in your inventory.

I was given a strength buff by a random passer by, which allowed me to get up in the end, but it doesn't excuse the fact of the matter - long term this mechanic is a failure and needs to be fixed.

There is storage available from some NPCs now so no real need to be running around with a lot of items in your inventory. One benefit of traveling light is you don't use up your endurance as quickly.

Right now that philosophy works. As Aramara pointed out, right now you can sell everything off in the deathrealm (personally i didn't know about this, and saw no indication of this, but it still stands) so you can circumvent it that way. But say in the future when crafting, or something else, is expanded on, say somebody has gone and hunted down specific stuff that they want to keep and use, or they've gone out and gathered  - in whatever way they've done it, they've got stuff they want to keep. And then for some reason, maybe they weren't being careful, they died. They're still going to be stuck with "Wait an unknown time, with unclear reasons as to why you are stuck on the ground and can't move.

No matter how you look at it, there is a lack of information and a lack of encouragement from that point on to play. It's almost a given that at some point in an MMO you'll die. Nobody wants a ridiculous wait on their hands - if they wanted to sit and do nothing at all, they wouldn't be playing a game.  They'd be sitting and staring into space.

It is better to strip a player's character of their entire inventory than to deny them the basic ability to actually play the game.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 03:56:59 pm by Primordial »

bilbous

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2011, 04:31:45 pm »
umm if you wanted to dump your inventory you certainly had that option instead you wanted to just complain. Were you not paying attention when the red message came up saying you were encumbered? I believe it was also in the status tab and probably in the main tab as well. That should have been a clue. You would rather lose everything than have the choice of what to drop? That does not seem to make sense.

Now having the basic chat tabs by default is a real problem because main is a cluttered mess until you discover the filter options and not having the full list of tabs cheats you of the opportunity of realizing there is more available. Then again having the vertical alignment of tabs is counter-productive because the text field needs to be wide anyway for readability and having the chat window have to be tall to see all the tabs makes the whole chat interface take up too much screen real estate. Ideally the chat tabs could be enabled and disabled individually without having to go into the xml files -- possibly in the in-game options.

Nobody likes the curse but it isn't that big a deal and you rapidly learn to deal with it.

Primordial

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2011, 05:20:27 pm »
umm if you wanted to dump your inventory you certainly had that option instead you wanted to just complain. Were you not paying attention when the red message came up saying you were encumbered? I believe it was also in the status tab and probably in the main tab as well. That should have been a clue. You would rather lose everything than have the choice of what to drop? That does not seem to make sense.

Now having the basic chat tabs by default is a real problem because main is a cluttered mess until you discover the filter options and not having the full list of tabs cheats you of the opportunity of realizing there is more available. Then again having the vertical alignment of tabs is counter-productive because the text field needs to be wide anyway for readability and having the chat window have to be tall to see all the tabs makes the whole chat interface take up too much screen real estate. Ideally the chat tabs could be enabled and disabled individually without having to go into the xml files -- possibly in the in-game options.

Nobody likes the curse but it isn't that big a deal and you rapidly learn to deal with it.


You missed the point. To make it clear: I wasn't encumbered to begin with. The curse halves your strength, or something to that effect (there is no information given in the window) so you're fine, and then you're effectively rooted for about half an hour. Nobody is going to bother to deal with it - they're just going to leave.

Koios

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2011, 06:38:49 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but since you've come back some times, your character isn't new still.
If I'm not mistaken, new characters still get those pop-up notices (the little yellow guy with the big !) on their screen telling them what has happened. This happens both first time dying and coming back up cursed. I can't recall the wording of these, but I would think they talked of both the aforementioned "vending machine" in DR you can sell stuff to and what the curse is all about.

And, come to think of it, for new players there is the 15 hour free pass so they won't get the curse when dying, just hear about it.
New players now skip the Death realm, and the death penalty, for their first 15 hours in game. Before we had NPC storage and most players had to carry everything they own the curse often meant sitting for 1/2 hour. Now with NPC storage most players travel light and aren't forced to sit still for a 1/2 hour due to the curse.

One can of course argue that the curse limits the new players way more than the experienced ones. And I agree, to some the curse now is just a setback to the stats they had before the raise of max levels.

I agree on the looting of most of the Sewer critters. The fenki you're talking of should at least loot a Claymore once in a while.
There were some good AI behavior (and still is at a certain Trepor lair), but it needed rebuilding when there were added plenty more mobs. Not sure where the Dev team stand on that task as of now.
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Primordial

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2011, 06:55:58 pm »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but since you've come back some times, your character isn't new still.
If I'm not mistaken, new characters still get those pop-up notices (the little yellow guy with the big !) on their screen telling them what has happened. This happens both first time dying and coming back up cursed. I can't recall the wording of these, but I would think they talked of both the aforementioned "vending machine" in DR you can sell stuff to and what the curse is all about.

I'm certainly not new, years old - I was around in one form or another back, I think, before mining was implemented and there were only about four different areas to Yliakum. In a guild during the big stir up around PVP and one particular Klyros player drew a lot of hate from people for various reasons I can't remember.


And, come to think of it, for new players there is the 15 hour free pass so they won't get the curse when dying, just hear about it.
New players now skip the Death realm, and the death penalty, for their first 15 hours in game. Before we had NPC storage and most players had to carry everything they own the curse often meant sitting for 1/2 hour. Now with NPC storage most players travel light and aren't forced to sit still for a 1/2 hour due to the curse.


I get that the curse is avoidable, but I still think that better thought needs to be put into it. Or perhaps it's literally that the effect of having half-stats and screwed up strength forces your character to sit down and not move. I just think that something, one of the two, needs to be changed, even if it's just the duration of the curse. A lot of games half stats on death and that's acceptable but:
1. None of them root you for carrying too much: they just slow you down to a crawl. The reason for this is that it's less invasive than straight up wresting control away from a player.
2. None of them keep it up for 30 minutes, that's far too long if you want to get back into the action.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 06:57:49 pm by Primordial »

Sarras Volcae

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2011, 07:56:49 pm »
dude has valid points. basically repeating what everyone else has said, but none of it has ever been addressed.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 11:29:32 pm by Talad »

bilbous

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2011, 08:32:40 pm »
But how many times has he made them with new forum accounts? Seems he made a new account for this go-round.

Seems like he likes his anonymity, but that makes him look like a troll. Maybe he never had an account before although
Quote
I returned again to test and comment on the state of the game with the updates.
makes that seem unlikely. Still as it has "been some time" he surely could have lost his login details.

It would be nice if we could know where his other posts were.

Earowo

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2011, 10:23:03 pm »
1. None of them root you for carrying too much: they just slow you down to a crawl. The reason for this is that it's less invasive than straight up wresting control away from a player.
Thats Genius, of all the death realm flames ive read, i have yet to hear that suggestion.
The curse is meant to punish, while also teach a lesson to those who die, to be more careful, either in combat, or making enemies :P
So as most people dont normally have enough weight on them to be held down anyway, it would make a lot of sense, to implement a type of 'crawl'
Basically if you are holding any ammount above your normal encumbrance, you would be slowd to this 'crawl' which would make you go at say 1/10 the speed you normally would go, you also wouldnt be able to mount mounts, This would keep things the same as they are, you would still have your half health, however you can actually work your way to harnquist to store things, and if its that time of the day, well work your way to william. There is no downside to it at all.
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Primordial

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 06:06:46 am »
But how many times has he made them with new forum accounts? Seems he made a new account for this go-round.

Seems like he likes his anonymity, but that makes him look like a troll. Maybe he never had an account before although
Quote
I returned again to test and comment on the state of the game with the updates.
makes that seem unlikely. Still as it has "been some time" he surely could have lost his login details.

It would be nice if we could know where his other posts were.

The reasons I switched account every now and then is due to changes of email, mainly.

My first account was, lamentably, 'dying_inside' (OH god, can somebody disembowel that user name with a rusty pitchfork. Seriously.), I'm not sure if that survived the switch over after they changed the board locations. I was fairly prominent in the art Forum, and received some very good tutoring/advice from Karyuu - Long gone now, if I remember and nothing's changed, but she was a badass artist and responsible for some quality contributions to Planeshift.  

1. None of them root you for carrying too much: they just slow you down to a crawl. The reason for this is that it's less invasive than straight up wresting control away from a player.
Thats Genius, of all the death realm flames ive read, i have yet to hear that suggestion.
The curse is meant to punish, while also teach a lesson to those who die, to be more careful, either in combat, or making enemies :P
So as most people dont normally have enough weight on them to be held down anyway, it would make a lot of sense, to implement a type of 'crawl'
Basically if you are holding any ammount above your normal encumbrance, you would be slowd to this 'crawl' which would make you go at say 1/10 the speed you normally would go, you also wouldnt be able to mount mounts, This would keep things the same as they are, you would still have your half health, however you can actually work your way to harnquist to store things, and if its that time of the day, well work your way to william. There is no downside to it at all.

If I could crawl to Harniquist's it would be a thousand times better than being rooted for half an hour. I wouldn't mind being rooted for less than half an hour - but nobody wants to play a game in which they do nothing. It defeats the entire purpose of playing a game, whether of not you make a mistake. Shadowbane, for instance: you died you lost everything on your corpse, your stats got halved, you spawned with half health and your equipment needed fixing up. It was much more preferable than if I'd been told to sit in Sea Dogs Rest for a straight Half an Hour and do nothing. That's a deterrent. The system as it is, is a frustration - one which can not helping the game.

 
Quote
I'm certainly not new, years old - I was around in one form or another back, I think, before mining was implemented and there were only about four different areas to Yliakum. In a guild during the big stir up around PVP and one particular Klyros player drew a lot of hate from people for various reasons I can't remember.

Hahahaha. Oh dear lord, that was me! I'm surprised to see that my noobish antics way back then actually held in some peoples' memories. Before I knew what roleplay was, Hydlaa pvp was the casual passtime. Roleplayers weren't happy. :P

That was amusing as hell.

I don't make these suggestions in an attempt to flame Planeshift - I have a fondness for this game, hence I keep returning to check up on it. And I sincerely do think it has masses of potential, but it's just a little unstructured. It seems to expand outwards when it should be, at this point, expanding upwards. I think, looking over the update logs, they're starting to do this better now (and if Kolos was right, at least my AI behaviour point is semi-void).
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 06:21:03 am by Primordial »

Sarva

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 08:26:16 am »
You can basically crawl to Harnquist right now. Place enough items far enough away form you, towards harnquist, so you are no longer over loaded, get up move as close as you can towards harnquist and still be able to pick up your items and if you aren't already close enough to trade or use storage with harnquist then pick up your items and repeat the process. You can always you role play, and talk to people near you, while you are waiting for the curse to wear off. If you are a smelter you can do crawling method towards an empty furnace and then work at the furnace if you have ore on you. If you are a merchant and have items to sell on you put out a book with your price list or announce the goods you are selling viaauction. There are things you can do when you are cursed nothing says you just have to sit there and do nothing.

As it is we have lots of players who think nothing of going to the death realm and suffering the curse to save time traveling from a distant part of the map to get back to Hydlaa quickly.

zarre

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2011, 05:41:57 pm »
Primordial,
Found it refreshing to see an honest post from a sporadic player here.

I think we tend to just accept most of the things you mentioned because
we become insensitive to them over time.

Your gentle reminders are appreciated and I hope noted by those who can
make things happen.

Thanks for posting.

Talad

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Re: General thoughts on a small play-test of 5.7
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2011, 11:27:17 pm »
Primordial,
I agree with most you said, and we should look into the death realm curse. One thing we did already some time ago was to remove the curse for all new players. If you char has less than 15 hours of gameplay when dying it receives a message that Dakkru doesn't want him yet. This was done to be sure that new players can learn other aspects of the game before having to deal with it.

The current script halves all your stats by 50% for 30 minutes. We could make it more progressive, making it related to the strength of the char, or we could avoid halving strength, so you will still be bad in combat due to low agility, but this will not hinder your movement. If anyone want to think to a good formula we can change it.

Note: I cleaned up a bit the thread so it's actually readable if someone wants to chime in.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 11:31:29 pm by Talad »