Developement in game progress in regards to Settings progress

[MustangMR]

Okay, few things about this thread....

You say over and over this is the SETTINGS thread, but what you're really talking about is lore, not settings.  Maybe it's a language barrier issue, but settings in English games almost always refer to game mechanics and the game engine itself, the parameters it's going to operate under and present data to you in.  I understand you're looking at from the setting of the environment and culture, but when we use that kind of setting, its singular, like the setting of the scene of a play.  When we use plural form, then it implies setting of a bunch of options.   It's very rare to hear settings plural in the way you're using it, and then needs to be backed up with some nouns on what the settings are for.  I almost didn't bother coming here for that reason because I thought this thread was just about features that may be broken or something like that.

When we discuss the types of things you're asking for, we almost always use the term lore to describe the world we are going to be playing in.   The lore of a world is it's history, it's people, what they believe, what they don't believe, how they work together, how their cultures came into being, etc...  That is much more appropriate for what you are asking for.

Again, I'm not trying to be mean because I know this is really a very international game and that's fantastic, but it is written mostly in English, and the question was asked that way, so I thought I would draw that distinction.  Probably too late to change, but there it is.

Second, you say many times that things are explained in game already.  I don't disagree with that, but where?  Does anyone tell me when I ask something dumb like, "oh, go talk to that guy because he knows all that stuff" or things like that?  What I see to my poorly phrased questions are "I'm sorry, I don't understand you".  So if I had to answer the basic question, it's that I'd like more knowledge in game about who the NPC's are and what they can do or explain, and then have it backed up in game.  I had a few people tell me I need to read a books for a skill, but I have no clue where to get books.  No one in the library has any.  And someone told me I had to put a book in my "mind" slot.... I about fell over cause I had no idea that was how that worked.  There wasn't even a tooltip to tell me where my mind slot it, though I think I know.

Bottom line, if all this info is in game, how about a little guidance on getting to it?  I know the fun is in discovering it, but lets face it, you can't ask every question to every NPC in the game, and running around playing 20 questions with every NPC can be pretty frustrating.  Something should guide us along somehow.

[Zan]

Lore, history, settings .. all just words. Labels we put on things. Technically you're probably right and you're also right about this game being international so not all of us are natively english. Though you obviously understand what's meant by 'settings' here, as does everyone else. I don't see a point in suddenly causing confusion by changing an established name into something else.
 
Guide to get settings info:

- Read the information on www.planeshift.it.
- Read in-game books.
- Talk to NPCs and do their quests.
- Keep in touch with certain forum topics like this one.

It's a game within the game to discover detailed information about Yliakum's history and cultures.

[MustangMR]

Alright, to be more constructive, here are some ideas on resolving some issues with PS.

First, you simply have a big inconsistency in what you describe in your documentation and what players are experiencing.  Supposedly, we're in a big stalactite, okay, but it's been pointed out that the game doesn't even begin to feel like that, yet development keeps going on in the path it's going.  One discrepancy I see is just the fact that you describe our crystal world as being underground, yet when I look up to the sky... I see just that, sky.  How about texturing the sky with a cave roof?  And make the crystal the focus of the sky and don't vaguely obscure it behind clouds.  This seems a rather simple change to make as it's just texturing and a little lighting, which you've already done. 

If the answer is that Crystal Space won't support your graphics needs, then perhaps you should have chosen a graphics engine that would have, or change your settings to coincide with the technology you chose to render the world in.  You can always change it later if you need to.

Second, why is there a ruined temple?  We're in a stalactite, so everything is underground by default and supposedly below us is a thriving world that we'll get to see someday.  So why is the first layer a ruined area? If you're stuck underground, and you have only so much space to grow into, why would anyone abandon an area?  Again, cool idea in alpha, not in-line with what you're saying.  If there was a ruined temple anywhere, it seems it would be on a path to the surface before we realized that we didn't want to go there.  This temple should be active, and lead to deeper things.

I read a bit about government and the Octarchs, but don't feel anything about it in game.  It just seems wrong.  The only government building I see is a small little box that I'm warned not to go near.  So what I suggest, is that you, the developers, role play the government, the "Vigesimi", or draft players you feel understand your vision to fill those positions.  Set them up with a small courtroom.  Give each of them a personal assistant who stands to the side of their chair that can respond to questions about the city and how it works when they're not there or out playing the game.  They can hold court at their discretion, and players will eventually begin to recognize them in game.

Then, write your settings on the web page to tell everyone who comes here who those players are and where the courtroom is, so everyone in game knows them and treats them as government people responsible for the city and it's inhabitants.  The RP'ers could get tons of mileage out of that.  The less RP'ing crowd would have someplace to go to get some answers.  And you'd start bringing your lore inline with your game.  Mention it in the tutorial.

The key point I'm trying to make is that you are in alpha stages of development.  You had an idea to start with, now you're trying to implement that idea.  You are stuck with these inconsistencies that you need to deal with, but you should also consider your settings alpha though.  Modify your settings to match what the game can do.  My frustration here is that over and over I feel like I'm being told the emperor has clothes, but he's standing there naked, and I'm just supposed to imagine he does.  You can keep your overall vision and let it come closer to it as your game gets closer to doing what you want. 

Either that or you're going to have to realize that you are not building the game you're describing, and dump either what you've built or what you're writing.  That is the challenge of getting out of Alpha stage into beta, and every program goes through these questions of matching requirements vs. implementation.  Right now, the developers don't' seem to be creating what the vision is requiring.

Sorry if I'm missing key points.  I see a lot of potential here, but just saying that you're in alpha is not always a reason for discrepancies in your plan.  If you don't want to develop forever, you need to start bringing your game in line with what your settings.

[neko kyouran]

offtopic posts split from the other thread.

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

What are you really saying MustangNR? The game's settings are not manifest through mechanics so we should write settings to match mechanics?

[Dajoji]

(...)I read a bit about government and the Octarchs, but don't feel anything about it in game.  It just seems wrong.  The only government building I see is a small little box that I'm warned not to go near.  So what I suggest, is that you, the developers, role play the government, the "Vigesimi", or draft players you feel understand your vision to fill those positions.  Set them up with a small courtroom.  Give each of them a personal assistant who stands to the side of their chair that can respond to questions about the city and how it works when they're not there or out playing the game.  They can hold court at their discretion, and players will eventually begin to recognize them in game.(...)

Actually, there's an Octarch in-game, as well as a Vigesimi. Perhaps you should explore a little more before addressing the depths of the game settings. One thing is to share your first impressions but if you want to give constructive criticism regarding the direction of the game it's a good idea to get to know well that which you think should change. Go to the libraries, talk to NPCs, try some quests. Nobody will have all the information in their face the minute they enter the game world, just like IRL. Interaction with the world gives you access to it.

[Karyuu]

We barely have time to work on the client sometimes, and you want us in-game to "govern"? Besides, players cannot roleplay any government official - they have not the tools to enforce any rules, nor the extensive knowledge of those rules (some of which still need to be written) to play a convincing part. This suggestion has been made before, so if you're interested in reading some past arguments, definitely give it a search in the Wishlist.

How about texturing the sky with a cave roof?  And make the crystal the focus of the sky and don't vaguely obscure it behind clouds

The "sky" is far enough from the groundplane that you won't see cavern walls directly. There are clouds (as evidenced by our occasional rainfall), but as you go deeper down the levels, it will get darker and more cave-like. I greatly dislike our current skydome textures as well, so I agree that they should be made better. Just not entirely the way you envision, I think.

[...] change your settings to coincide with the technology you chose to render the world in.

And as CrystalSpace develops that technology, what do our setting members write? That "suddenly" all these things are now possible and the appearance of the world changes without reason, or some obscure reason that is forced onto the community and changes all their roleplay? People are more than willing to adapt right now and forgive us for not having next-gen graphics There's no reason to nitpick like this, really.

Second, why is there a ruined temple?  We're in a stalactite, so everything is underground by default and supposedly below us is a thriving world that we'll get to see someday.  So why is the first layer a ruined area?

The first level is most definitely not a "ruined area" :] The majority of it is thriving farmland, due to the closeness of the Crystal and presence of its light. A few ruins to signify past occupancy do not destroy this image. Sure, we can make everything farms right now - but I'd prefer some visual variety at first, too. Most of the graphics right now are those of standing and populated structures.

I understand how frustrating it can be to play in an unfinished world, but what else can we do but go on building it? Instead of choosing "This isn't finished yet - let's change it" we go with "This isn't finished yet - let's finish."

[Under the moon]

First, the light of the Crystal is more towards the blue visible and infrared invisible (to some races) parts of the spectrum. The roof of the cavern is comprised of materials that reflect the prominent blue wavelength and absorb the others. The cracks and textures are there, they are just kilometers away, so not greatly obvious. The textures and lighting will be improved in time, just as everything else will be. But that is Art and Engine, not Settings.

Second, there is a ruined temple for a reason. There are many ruined things, and they all have a reason. Even the hills and ridges have a reason. The reason for the hills is given in an ingame book. The reason for the ruins... is still a secret hidden from characters (and players). The plot thickens...

The government issue is valid, but not something high on the list of 'needs to be done right now'. We do not want to put any 'placeholders' in for something that important until we have supporting systems. Look at how people treat the guards now. Most people see them as useless ornaments and RP them as inept. Would you have the government seen the same way? Once again, that is an Engine issue, and Engine is working on more important bugs and systems right now.

The points you have noted do not say to me that the game envisioned is not the one being built. It is taking small steps towards that end, even if it does not seem like it.

[Arerano]

How about texturing the sky with a cave roof?

Done.



Well, it has been that way since years. But I must confess that it isn't that obvious - especially if one doesn't know that we do live in a stalagmite. And often it's even less obvious. (eg at darker times)

[edit: I still agree that it can be better. Probably one of the few things which is used on all (or almost all) maps, yet it has never been improved and even new maps use that one.]

[Prolix]

One thing that this thread makes me think of is that the lighting is not all that accurately depicted. Certainly at full brightness the effects of the blue tinge from the crystal will be less significant as the blue approximates white but at lower levels the reds should trend through purple, the greens through aquamarine, and the whites through navy into indigo and finally black. I tried to show this here:

 It seems the light sources used to light up the world are all white. All greys should be bluish. Now the way I created this picture was to take a full saturation spectrum gradient and impose a ~40% transparency blue layer with a hard light filter on top of it but it serves to illustrate my point.

This is the base layer:

[Arerano]

Sorry for 

but I had to give the sky a try. The azure sun looks like an UFO now 


@Prolix: I am sure that the light does make things look different as we know it. However, our chars are used to it. Most of them never saw any different "sun".

[Jeraphon]

Actually, there's an Octarch in-game, as well as a Vigesimi.

Truth be told, there are three Vigesimi implemented as characters, and all 20 are outlined in in-game books. (I think those books are now available. It's certainly been written.)

[MustangMR]

Oops, I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was echoed here.  I was talking with Zan offline about this and didnt' realize it had been moved here.

Again, I am trying to be constructive, and no, I don't think just because I post it something is going to change and I'm going to go over in a corner and cry about it.  These are impressions of the game, and I know enough about this game to have some history of how it's been developed.  I was here for the crystal hunt.  You have basically been demonstrating technology for the past four or five years.  Crystal Space didn't even go final till a year or so ago (don't hit me on time lines, I blink and year goes by anymore), so yes, some changes to game may be required.

But I stand by most of what I wrote.  See, you can explain the issue all you want here, but here isn't in game.  It doesn't feel like anything you are describing.  When I read the descriptions of the world you are proposing, I expect to walk into a dreary game.  We're an underground race.  If the crystal is the main source of light, and it would be in an underground setting, then the world should be colored.  It's not.  It is rendered with white light, something the crystal is not said to be doing, and everything looks identical to other games with normal sun lighting.  The texture of the cave roof looks barely different from a sky with clouds.

I did read all the books in the library.  There's not much more there than there is on the web site, except they introduced the concept of the Dome, which I assume is the cave roof.  And, everything that was originally stated as fact (we live in a stalactite) is now theory, where maybe we don't live in a stalactite and the holes are just holes and well heck, throw that theory out and maybe Laanx and Talad don't exist either.  So the history and culture is changing to match what is happening in game. (sorry if that is too much info, but I'm sure it's all subject to change).  From the replies here and the books in the library, it really feels like the game is changing into something different, though i could be wrong.

And the temple ruins below the temple of Laanx still seem out of place for the history of the world that exists.  It's not old enough to have had an entire culture develop, build a temple, and abandon it to ruin while another temple is built above it after millenia of dirt have covered it up.  And if the world is a stalactite, then you're really carving it out the rock.

But those are minor quibbles guys.  Things an engineer like me looks at and says "what the...".  There are many many more I'm seeing, but I figured those are the most glaring ones.  Take em or leave em, I don't care.

The suggestion to roleplay the government is just for fun.  You say this game is all about roleplaying, but I really don't see much going on.  People seem really good at roleplaying bar patrons, but I been there done that in real life, don't need to RP it.  Put some money where your mouth is.  Roleplay REAL roles.  Take ownership of the game and be the characters you write about.   The suggestion for placeholders was just because I never expected you to just sit in one place every day all day long, so you would have an assistant who could answer basic questions when you were out, you know, the one with all the red tape. 

Anyway, don't read this as a "though must do as I say" post.  It was never intended that way.  I do see a split between the development side and the settings side.  Based on what I've been told to read (books in game, website), I don't even see consistency between the website and the books in game, so yes, everything has to be considered alpha.  This is nothing new and you shouldn't be afraid of changing things to resolve issues.  Every singe software development program out there has gone through requirements changes as you move from concept to alpha to beta and final.  Many companies throw out technology demonstrations all together before they even enter alpha stage, and most of what you have so far is tech demo.  No, you aren't those companies and you shouldn't be expected to throw out everthing, but some evolution should be expected on everyones part, the players too.

[Nikodemus]

When I read the descriptions of the world you are proposing, I expect to walk into a dreary game.  We're an underground race.  If the crystal is the main source of light, and it would be in an underground setting, then the world should be colored.  It's not.  It is rendered with white light, something the crystal is not said to be doing, and everything looks identical to other games with normal sun lighting.  The texture of the cave roof looks barely different from a sky with clouds.

I'm sure the world where there Azure Sun doesn't reach is dreary, or should be really modelled like that. I think the few underground places we have aren't that bad. Colored world? It should have azure colored light, yes. Hydlaa had it once and then some people complained without understanding wtf and it is back white. The lighting is broken here and there and probably noone can find time to fix that as they are bsy without other things and hope to fix the lighting later also when CS will be better.
I gues it's what we can expect to see in an alpha stage game.
The sky texturing/lighting is very bad, yeah, but it is mainly because the texture is low resolution. You can't have anything better with that resolution. Probably to stay on the same performance level, it won't change. It is blue with rock shapes coming out of it because it is far away, just like when everything far away in mountains is blue.

But those are minor quibbles guys.  Things an engineer like me looks at and says "what the...".  There are many many more I'm seeing, but I figured those are the most glaring ones.  Take em or leave em, I don't care.

I agree the game has small thought from the enginering side and the setting team doesn't feel about putting a lot efford into it, though of course there is some small thought, but maybe i was talking to much with the wrong people. Some pool showed it is what the majority of the voters wanted - more thought into the aspect. We will see.

Its alpha, beta, or whatever. Probably why I don't play much and try developing more.

[Prolix]

As far as the ruins go the 700-odd years is plenty of time for, say, the black flame to build up a large settlement and have it get destroyed, depopulated and leave only ruins. Consider Louisbourg in Cape Breton, a rebuilt ruin of a mere 300-odd years -- 18th century. It has been stated somewhere on these forums that the rationale for those ruins are not yet explained in the game.