RP Combat Styles

[novacadian]

This thread is intended to lay out some systems that players may use or expect to use in RP combat. There appears to be no fixed rules in that regard, so it was my intention that more experienced RPers might give some examples of how they approach the subject during RP so that newbs will have some idea of what to expect as well as suggestions on how it may be handled when approached to RP.

As a new arrival to PS it was unclear to me what to expect and have only just begun to understand some techniques that are excepted through trail and error of game play. It is certain that my experiences have merely scratched the surface at this stage of play on PS.

That having been said perhaps it would be best that the simplest system, to my knowledge, be laid out to new players first.

1d6 Two Contestant Battle
-----------------------------------

Although simple this technique was a lot of fun when using it. My excitement to rpg style gaming has always been the dice and this simple system affords that thrill.
 

- Two players agree to a battle.
 
- They both agree how many hits will be required to kill a character. For example they may say the first character to take three hits dies.

- Each rolls a 1d6 (/roll 6 in game mechanics) and highest roll gets initiative. Ties could simply be rolled again or
treated as simultaneous actions.

- The winner of the initiative states their actions. Like "Bill lunges at his opponent slashing at their legs" Both players would then roll a 1d6 (/roll 6). If the Player of Bill rolls higher than the other player then Bill makes a hit. If not he misses. It should be obvious that if a defending player rolls a 6 they will be unable to be hit that round.

- The results of the hit or miss can be given in RP terms. For example, "Bill makes a hit to the other's legs". The other player may then add something like, "Character2 goes down from Bill's blow yet rolls to the side and jumps back to their feet."

- The second player will now have their action and the above will be repeated.

- This would continue (in the criteria of this example) until one of the characters had suffered 3 wounds.

- When a character is killed then that player of that character will use the /suicide command to send them to the Death Realm. Of course drawn out death scenes are encouraged.

Additional Ideas
---------------------

- One may want to take into consideration critical rolls. That is when a 6 is rolled on the 1d6. The players may want to agree that such a hit is consider as two.
 
- The Players may want to consider that the critical hit has the effect of the struck character loosing any offensive action for the next round. They should be able to use their action to roll against a defensive action perhaps... in affect giving them two rolls against the offensive action of the player who had scored a critical hit.

- Players may want to discuss their characters different abilities and stats and work out some modifiers. To do this well it would be suggested that a 1d100 be used instead of a 1d6.

- Players are advised to have fun with it! 

[jaculapundactum]

This.

[Zytorr]

A simple method, IF it is assumed that both fighters are identical.  Not the case.
It is also ridiculous that a noob or someone without training would have much chance against an experienced, seasoned warrior. I happen to feel this a problem with RP, that anyone can just godmod that they can do anything. Better to base the outcome on personal abilities and warriors will become much more respected and novices might look to hire a warrior when they have little chance of winning. After all is not that one thing mercenaries are for. Think of the improved RP this can encourage.

Just to RP for the sake of RP without consideration for what characters are created and developed to be is just a plain crap shoot. Much more strategy and interest will come into play when the fighters are not just equated to a simple role of the dice. But also this would allow for a bit of luck.

To really get the dice scenarios to work several factor should be considered.
Some are listed here to give an idea:
     factor for difference in stats
     factor for difference in weapon level
     factor for type of weapon and armor used
     factor for defensive spell used
     factor for offensive spell used
     factor for magic level
     factor for buff during fight

Perhaps a greater sided die or multiple dice could be used to accomplish this. I am sure some can come up with some great details.
It certainly would provide a system based more on each character's abilities and fit better into settings and character development. It might even be close enough to PvP battle without the lag that many will choose this fighting alternative.

[Sarva]

One argument against basing the die results on stats/skills is that players running evil characters know that there is a good chance they will get caught and permakilled for their activities. This means most players don't want to spend a lot of time  grinding to improve the stats/skills of their evil character if there is a good chance the character isn't going to be around long. For the sake of playability I don't mind if a bad guy plays that he has stats/skills above what they actually have. Now I do have a problem with evil characters that have abilities not even in the game for a master of a magic way of skill.

[novacadian]

You have my total agreement Zytorr. However the above simple system works for somewhat balanced characters, like two newbs meeting in the sewers. In the case when it was used with my character it was between a character that was more into storyline; so just to convince them to use dice took some pms.

As explained clearly, hopefully, it is the most simple of systems yet a place to start from.

My hope is that more experienced players will share how they deal with such RP battles and perhaps a guide can be put together which both contestants can refer to as a rule basis of their combats.
 
It seems important that it be kept simple to some degree. Like heavy armour type gives you X modifier on 1d100 defence rolls. Blunt would have its own modifier when used against that armour type and so on.

Adding and subtracting such modifiers before the combat would allow two contestants to know what number they need to roll to hit on the 1d100. Once the arithmetic is done then the actual battle could then be a simple series of 1d100 rolls in the order mentioned above. It would even be taken into consideration by me to code a cgi program which one could chose the different armour and weapons and enter stats online so that the end result to hit numbers could be given to them; saving them the tedious math to figure it out on their own.

Input is most welcome on forming a consensus as to how the modifiers should function. As there are only three armour types and not much more weapon types it should not be too big a task. Should some type of consensus be reached then a cgi project could be considered.

- Nova

[verden]

The question of how to have fair RP systems that are independent of character statistics has always been tricky. I am not saying this is necessarily the best approach, but I did once attempt to describe an idea that would allow for RP contests independent of the skill of the character. The crux of the matter is, do the RP systems get based off of character stats or not? Its got to be one or the other. If not, then it should only be random. If so, then there should be commands (command line is fine) that allow for automatic comparison of stats or skills and determination of an outcome.

PS#2768 - Contest command for Roleplay http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/flyspray/index.php?do=details&task_id=2768

[Elady]

The main thing is to have players who are mature enough to know that RP isn't fun if one person always wins or one person goes for their most powerful spell and brings the fight to a screeching halt right away.

I was in a fight where we used a very simply system. The attacker would state their action and then the defending  character would roll a 6 sider with a 1-3 being a hit/success  and a 4-6 was a miss/failure.

Since my character can't kill citizens per our guild rules I was using non lethal methods in the fight such as trying to stun the other character with dazzling lights Throwing punches etc. Our battle combined magic attacks and physical attacks. I didn't much care that I probably had much better skills and stats than the other character I was willing to basically fight straight up with the 50-50 chance of each of us failing or succeeding in each action we took.

I have also had other RP fights with no dice rolling that involved people who were good enough RP'ers to realize fights simply can't be one sided and if you get in multi fights the person who came out on top the last time should probably come out of the next fight the worse. Even if in a RP fight with a very good RP'er that I trust I still might let the dice decide what happens to my character since the curves the dice can throw your way makes it a challenge and more interesting.

[verden]

Of course, I might add, my idea was roundly flamed and I was accused of attempting to create an unnecessary and redundant combat system. Any die roll system could be used as the basis of a command that could then compare and assign a "winner" to the situation. But... the outlay of the development time against the needs of the system makes it seem redundant. As I have said before, PlaneShift is not a roleplaying game, it is a game where you are asked to roleplay your characters. The players will always have to work their own systems of roleplay and deal with the conflicts that will inevitably arise from there not being a way to moderate and enforce a set of rules on a group of players who are cooperating (or not) in a scenario. Sorry if I went OT, the topic is near and dear to my heart. I'll retire to the troll cave now.

[Trikitiger]

Though I would definitely say that you're right though, players need to find their own way that works best with their preferred method. I grew up on real-time no-dice battles, so I say "screw the dice", but that's only because that's what I prefer, and what system I learned with. And due to my learning knowledge, I -NEVER- wanted my character to die, but after time, I didn't care, because my character only died in that -GAME-, not really died. (It was a good 2 years until I let my own characters die.)

Anyways, I agree with the above, do it how you prefer to do it. Just because you want a standardized system, doesn't mean everyone's going to accept it. The only rule to the RP Server is to be in character; there is no rule on fighting other characters. (If you want to check out an RP system that's based on skills and stuff, check out Planeswalker, GURPS, or D&D)

[Geoni]

I agree with like...everything nova said on this thread. 

[novacadian]

One argument against basing the die results on stats/skills is that players running evil characters know that there is a good chance they will get caught and perma killed for their activities. This means most players don't want to spend a lot of time  grinding to improve the stats/skills of their evil character if there is a good chance the character isn't going to be around long. For the sake of playability I don't mind if a bad guy plays that he has stats/skills above what they actually have. Now I do have a problem with evil characters that have abilities not even in the game for a master of a magic way of skill.

Yes, so long as it was understood between the players involved then they could put in the stats that they wanted and skills that some evil boss was supposed to have rather than having to grind their way there to make such a boss. Perhaps a balance would be that killing such a Boss would mean perma death to them or something... yet that, again, should be for the players involved to agree upon. It is not my intention to set out one approach that all must follow. However it is my intention to present a system that can use dice for combat outcomes if dice are the preference for the players that wish to use them.

It is also my belief that offering such a dice option could bring in more players to RPs that would normally only want to use PvP. This will become more critical a factor as the player base begins to build up again.  A long drawn out properly balanced RP'ed dice combat could be just as much fun as a two minute duel. Notice duel-ers it was said "just as much fun"; so no disrespect intended!   

The question of how to have fair RP systems that are independent of character statistics has always been tricky. I am not saying this is necessarily the best approach, but I did once attempt to describe an idea that would allow for RP contests independent of the skill of the character. The crux of the matter is, do the RP systems get based off of character stats or not? Its got to be one or the other.

It seems to me that the important thing is that the system be based on the stats the characters involved are agreed to have between the players involved. With an independent cgi to handle the number crunching it will not know what the PS mechanics thinks the stats are but only what the players say they are. Therefore you will have your players that will only want to play with real stats and those that don't. There will be the third option that those that want to play with real stats will make an exception when they know they are dealing with an evil Boss in an RP. That is not unlike playing against a Monster in a Game Master table rpg that is simply rolled up on the spot and requires no grinding on the GM's part.

My feeling is that one good compromise would be that such Bosses experience perma death when killed as opposed to simply /suicide; yet that is only a suggestion to attract grinders to RPs.

Since my character can't kill citizens per our guild rules I was using non lethal methods in the fight such as trying to stun the other character with dazzling lights

Good point Elady. Other uses of that technique come to mind easily. Cases like when you want to capture the character as opposed to killing it. When they were on the ropes and one hit away from death one could simply make it clear in their action turn that they "take a swing at the head of the Boss with the flat side of their sword to knock them out" or something to that effect. Then the Boss (in this example) would be considered to be unconscious if the hit is successful instead of dead.

Any die roll system could be used as the basis of a command that could then compare and assign a "winner" to the situation.

Your idea was appealing to me, verden. Especially the drinking competitions. Even you example was hilarious! Although it is outside the range of this thread; as it is non-combatant; it deserves a place in the back of the mind should the cgi project take off. Things like constitution stats and the like could be taken into consideration for formulating success rolls for such contests.

Anyways, I agree with the above, do it how you prefer to do it. Just because you want a standardized system, doesn't mean everyone's going to accept it.

Totally agree with that thought, Trikitiger. It is not meant so much as a standardized system but one that all could use if they wanted to bring the dice into the picture of combat in RP. If they did wish to bring dice into it then the system could be flexible enough to handle what they wanted from it. For example the simple system mentioned at the top of the thread and the styles Elady mentioned are already available using the roll command. To bring in more depth to the combat such a cgi could be used to add stats, armour and weapon types into the picture. The end result would be the intent to add more realism to the RP Combat and take the final results out of the hands of the players and into Lady Luck's.

- Nova

[kaerli2]

I happen to be an avid RP duelist myself: PvP is too lag- and entropy-driven for any serious work.  Stats-based dice systems usually work "well enough" in a skill-asymmetrical (or even a skill-symmetrical) battle that something more sophisticated is not need IMO.  Symmetric fights between unskilled chars ONLY can be handled using 1d6s, while a battle between two highly skilled chars should be done without dice (as Skill goes up, the role of Luck gets smaller).  Frankly, the main problem is that some folks don't grasp just how skilled, (or not) another character may be (both in a mechanics and a RP sense).

[novacadian]

Thanks for the link Aiwendil! My search of the forum was not as complete as originally thought. 

I happen to be an avid RP duelist myself: PvP is too lag- and entropy-driven for any serious work.  Stats-based dice systems usually work "well enough" in a skill-asymmetrical (or even a skill-symmetrical) battle that something more sophisticated is not need IMO.  Symmetric fights between unskilled chars ONLY can be handled using 1d6s, while a battle between two highly skilled chars should be done without dice (as Skill goes up, the role of Luck gets smaller).  Frankly, the main problem is that some folks don't grasp just how skilled, (or not) another character may be (both in a mechanics and a RP sense).

Good points Kaerli. Your input is appreciated.

What has been beginning to jell in my head is that there be a site where a character can be submitted and the appropriate skills and stats given. Another user could then compare their entered character profile against another in the database. The dice rolls could then be given that would be used in such a combat. A date would be given as to the last time the character being compared was updated with the disclaimer that they may have increased relevant data in the meantime.

It may become the standard that when a combat does occur and the system is employed that the data is not to be updated until after such a combat is resolved or players may ask for the option to update their data prior to the combat. That could be an option that the player could be offered when at the site and their preference could be given to the player making the search comparison. Time and situation will dictate that.

What would be preferred by me is that the combat code of PS be reviewed and the resulting dice rolls reflect as well as possible the results that one would likely achieve via the PvP system. The need of a independent site could be made redundant should such an option be installed in the PS software. That could be a project that could interest me should my application to the dev team be considered.

One important element of the proposed system is that, although it may try to follow the techniques used in the PvP system, it crunch that down to one simple dice roll result so that things are not complicated for those using the system for RP combat.

Even if higher level characters have less chance of luck, it would still be nice to have that factor in there in my opinion. Rolling that critical roll when needed is a real thrill for me on the rpg table and it is likely the same for other dice junkies like myself.

Also different armour and weapon types could play a factor. The degree of detail to use should be left up to the players involved; yet the option to input weapon and armour types as well as their condition should be made available to them should they wish to go to such lengths.

Regardless if higher level characters wanted to use the system or not, my feeling is, they should still have the option to do so.

- Nova

[kaerli2]

Thanks for the link Aiwendil! My search of the forum was not as complete as originally thought. 

I happen to be an avid RP duelist myself: PvP is too lag- and entropy-driven for any serious work.  Stats-based dice systems usually work "well enough" in a skill-asymmetrical (or even a skill-symmetrical) battle that something more sophisticated is not need IMO.  Symmetric fights between unskilled chars ONLY can be handled using 1d6s, while a battle between two highly skilled chars should be done without dice (as Skill goes up, the role of Luck gets smaller).  Frankly, the main problem is that some folks don't grasp just how skilled, (or not) another character may be (both in a mechanics and a RP sense).

Good points Kaerli. Your input is appreciated.

What has been beginning to jell in my head is that there be a site where a character can be submitted and the appropriate skills and stats given. Another user could then compare their entered character profile against another in the database. The dice rolls could then be given that would be used in such a combat. A date would be given as to the last time the character being compared was updated with the disclaimer that they may have increased relevant data in the meantime.

It may become the standard that when a combat does occur and the system is employed that the data is not to be updated until after such a combat is resolved or players may ask for the option to update their data prior to the combat. That could be an option that the player could be offered when at the site and their preference could be given to the player making the search comparison. Time and situation will dictate that.

What would be preferred by me is that the combat code of PS be reviewed and the resulting dice rolls reflect as well as possible the results that one would likely achieve via the PvP system. The need of a independent site could be made redundant should such an option be installed in the PS software. That could be a project that could interest me should my application to the dev team be considered.

One important element of the proposed system is that, although it may try to follow the techniques used in the PvP system, it crunch that down to one simple dice roll result so that things are not complicated for those using the system for RP combat.

Even if higher level characters have less chance of luck, it would still be nice to have that factor in there in my opinion. Rolling that critical roll when needed is a real thrill for me on the rpg table and it is likely the same for other dice junkies like myself.

Also different armour and weapon types could play a factor. The degree of detail to use should be left up to the players involved; yet the option to input weapon and armour types as well as their condition should be made available to them should they wish to go to such lengths.

Regardless if higher level characters wanted to use the system or not, my feeling is, they should still have the option to do so.

- Nova

The thing with your approach is is that the combat results AFAIK are governed by mathscripts stored in the DB, which are proprietary...

[novacadian]

The thing with your approach is is that the combat results AFAIK are governed by mathscripts stored in the DB, which are proprietary...

Thanks for that heads up Kaerli. Code reference will be out then; however it would not take Einstein to backwards engineer something that is somewhat the same using the 'white room' precedence to not break any copyright laws. As long as it gives the same general outcome as one would expect from a PvP combat it should offer more realism than a 1d6. 

- Nova