PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: zanzibar on April 26, 2006, 04:50:44 am
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The wish is simple:
If you move, you automatically change to a full defensive stance.
Why? It would mean no more 'hit and run' attacks. This would lead to better fights with monsters I think.
It's also because it will eliminate half a dozen exploits which people use in duels. The devs use to hate 'hit and run' attacks in duels, saying that it was cheating and that it worked around the mechanics of the game, but then they accepted it since players didn't pay attention. Now, it's a common practice. A required one, in fact, since everyone is doing it.
Another exploit it would eliminate is that you can put the "yes" button to accept the challenge right over the bloody attack icon, so you can start your attack the instant you accept the duel, and run up and kill your oponent before they're ready. Another one is the disapearing act some characters do in certain maps, especially the death realm it seems. You're running around so much that you disappear on the other guy's screen - some people have learned to exploit this bug to their advantage.
I think that these tactics in duelling take away from the game. Others probably disagree. Since I think my wish is a relatively easy fix to this maybe problem, I think that it should be considered and discussed.
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Hm. I think standing in one spot during a fight would be pretty boring, but you are right about the various "cheats" people use and how annoying they can be. I just don't think that a stationary position during a fight is the best approach. We can probably make the accept/decline window that pops-up upon duel requests immovable, so that may take care of one of the irritations. I've never heard of the disappearing act - curious. That is something that I think should be fixed in the code itself instead of changing the way all combat is handled.
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I agree that hit-and-run is a bit cheezy. However, I like movement in combat, I mean, I kinda attribute it as (I don't wanna get hit, let me move and try to dodge the blow) Well, IRL at least. I know some games emply the concept of using certain "styles" not just varying degrees of offensive/defensive attacking, and some of those styles were positional, i.e. had to be facing the side or back of a player to execute the attack. I liked how this kept you thinking on your feet so to speak. However I know PS isn't like other games. There should be some way to keep people moving, but keep them from making hit and runs.
Idea:
Although this pretty much only works for melee, as a ranged attacker, or magic user would try to be farther away, and get out of the path of the melee attacks.
In melee, or duels maybe have them only able to move a certain radius or distance away from an active target, else the combat is terminated? So, say you move more than a meter from the person(or creature) you're fighting, the attack stops altogether, and is counted as either forfeit, or fleeing or something? (although I guess a creature would have the option of hunting you down) However, I don't know if this should be used for group combat, since a larger group would need a larger radius to be effective, especially considering ranged attackers. However, I think that strafing to try and get behind a person is a viable style to attack. Especially later -if- things like paralysis or poisons or crippling start coming into play.
Just a rough idea to bounce around.
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I don't mean to suggest that you can't move around. I think that you should be able to run away from a fight, I think you should be able to run at someone aggressively, I like animated fights with lots of movement. But when you try to run away, is there an agility check? I'm pretty tired right now so this post won't be that well writen. But fundamentally, the whole hit and run thing during duels is essentially an exploit. People are exploiting the mechanics of the game in order to win the duel. The 'skill' which is at play during the duel isn't based in RP or character stats or in system mechanics, it's about how good you are at bugging out your opponent. It feels wrong to me when I think about how the devs have talked about the direction they want their creation to take.
Another problem with it is that people just run through creatures like gladiators and ulbernaughts in order to kill the creature without being hit. Isn't that an exploitation of the game mechanics?
I'm not sure what the solution is, but am I the only one who sees this as a problem? Maybe my suggestion can work once other moves are in the game, special techniques and all that. Maybe there will be a move where it's 'attack, wait' instead of 'wait, attack' so people can run up to their oponent then do their learned attack which is instanteous followed by a wait instead of the other way around, so it really seems like a running kick or whatever.
Karyuu, I know you're a RPer in the game so we've probably seen different styles of fighting and we also probably have our minds on different styles of fighting. The duels I usually see and get involved in involved two characters running around like mad, faking eachother out, starting false attacks, and the major focus is on timing and having a low /ping rather than character stats or the mechanics within the game.
I dunno. Stuff and something etcetera.
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I personally agree with Karyuu and Vaylos that I prefer not to see passive, immobile combat. In fact I'd like to suggest the opposite of what you want to see ... When you go out of range you don't end your attack stance but the combat continues. Only you obviously won't hit anything as long as you don't go in range. That way you can basically try to dodge and engage the entire time by going in and out of range. Of course for this to work the NPC AI needs a serious boost. NPC's need to be able to advance and back up, just like players, not simply walk at their target.
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I personally agree with Karyuu and Vaylos that I prefer not to see passive, immobile combat. In fact I'd like to suggest the opposite of what you want to see ... When you go out of range you don't end your attack stance but the combat continues. Only you obviously won't hit anything as long as you don't go in range. That way you can basically try to dodge and engage the entire time by going in and out of range. Of course for this to work the NPC AI needs a serious boost. NPC's need to be able to advance and back up, just like players, not simply walk at their target.
There's nothing inbetween? Is combat supposed to be this way?
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A swordfight should be a series of parries and thrusts, not a series of right-clicks and "s-w-s-w"s (if that makes any sense at all). Once someone commits to a fight, they should receive harsh treatment for running away. Perhaps some system wherein an attacker gets an extra attack on fleeing opponents could be created. Movement beyond minor sidestepping should foil an attack and moving participants should be severely penalized for moving while attempting to attack. Once your character has reached a million points in a particular weapons skill, that penalty should be negligable, but for beginners, this would constitute an act of desperation, which is what most gamey tactics essentially are.
Not that I think there won't be a thousand other ways to game the system once they've created something like that. It is called the wish list, after all, for a reason.
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A swordfight should be a series of parries and thrusts, not a series of right-clicks and "s-w-s-w"s (if that makes any sense at all). Once someone commits to a fight, they should receive harsh treatment for running away. Perhaps some system wherein an attacker gets an extra attack on fleeing opponents could be created. Movement beyond minor sidestepping should foil an attack and moving participants should be severely penalized for moving while attempting to attack. Once your character has reached a million points in a particular weapons skill, that penalty should be negligent, but for beginners, this would constitute an act of desperation, which is what most gamey tactics essentially are.
Not that I think there won't be a thousand other ways to game the system once they've created something like that. It is called the wish list, after all, for a reason.
I agree. Think about it - trying to escape a fight can leave you vulnerable, but the way things are in the game, the whole hit and run thing makes it a way to win.
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I'll second that notion. That's kinda what I was trying to get at what with the radius idea. And fleeing would leave you quite vulnerable if you just turned and ran. Backstab anyone? >=) To properly disengage, I guess you'd have to back away from your opponent while keeping your guard up, and put as much distance between you before turning and running. Having obstacles (pillars, boulders, etc.) would probably help, especially if your opponent used range such as magic or missile weapons. I think taking a spell bolt, or an arrow or dagger to the back should leave some serious damage hehe. It'd also be fun trying to cripple someone with a leg shot as they tried to run away.
Anyhoo, I think BlackAcre has the right idea.
edit: I loved the combat in Redguard. (bethesda game released not long after daggerfall and battlespire, it was pretty buggy though) lotsa parry-strike goodness :D
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What about a new attack mode? "Mobile?" If you move, you switch to a mobile attack?
Just brainstorming.
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Combat is mobile and you are actually constantly staying out of range from your opponent until you close in to attack. Of course there is a difference between backing up and plain running away or at your opponent.
Maybe that could be fixed by creating an combat circle around every character, the size of the circle determines the reach of that character. Of course this should depend on the weapon used and the length of their arms. A claymore has a much larger reach than a dagger and a Kran a larger one than a Dwarf. Besides a varying reach that combat circle should be divided into 3 areas. The front left, the front right and the rear half of the circle. Depending on in which area your opponent is, you can gain a damage/defence advantage or disadvantage. If your enemy is in the left front area, the weapon or shield you equiped in your left hand will be utilized with a maximum efficiency. The same thing goes for your right and when your enemy is behind you ... better hope you have some good protective armor there. Damage will be substantial and only depends on your armor, no dodging what you don't see coming.
That system should make it more realistic and discourage simply running in and out of a fight.
For a mobile combat system NPC opponents need to come quite a way as well though, like I already said they shouldn't just walk straight at their targets and the combat lag needs to be toned down. That last will probably be the hardest problem, removing lag from a multiplayer game.
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The thing is, Planeshift isn't an action game.
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hehe aye, and if combat became too fun, we might end up drawing the wrong crowd ;) *chuckle* Anyhoo, planeshift is heavily RP based, so really, combat should be something that is more of a representation than a realistic model. (I guess) I mean, don't get me wrong, it should be relatively fluid, and try to mimic realism, but I don't think we need a system that is like guild wars, but like...I guess somewhere in between? I believe in the combat system, a chance to parry a strike (besides dodging, or letting the armor absorb the hit) and counterattacking in turn would be good...don't know how you'd do it without a style system like DAOC though *scratches his head and ponders* maybe have an icon appear near the normal attack icons for a couple seconds if you parry a strike, so you can counterattack, or reposte or something?
Anyways, that's getting a little offtopic I think...the main issue is trying to do away with hit-and-run, "disappearing" and other exploits while keeping things fluid and such. I dunno, keep brainstorming though hehe. Maybe something will strike a dev, and they'll write the idea down for later implementation. I can't really think of anything right now without it being too "actiony"
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The thing is, Planeshift isn't an action game.
You're right, but this is a wishlist item in any event. I think we'd all like to see the combat system get as 'real' as possible someday. Discouraging powergamers is possible in essentially the way it is done already-by promoting RP exclusively through peer pressure. It'd be pretty laughable to leave the combat system inadequate solely to avoid powergamers, though. ;D
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a thing that could work when the game is more advanced is if you ciome running at a npc/player that npc/player can choose some sort of attack suck as fast or whateva that would inflict low damage but the person charging at them wouldnt get to hit that would maybe fix it \\o//
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I think the disappearing bug is largely a problem with lag. If you noticed when a player has a lagging client they will disappear and reappear where they were a few moments back and continue in the same direction. Basically the bug is that when they disappear the opponent looses his target and so can't hit. As you all should know from my post in the Hydlaa Message board *erhm* i am setting up a training hall to try and teach some good dueling, a good chance to test bugs too. I found in some maps this targetting bug was quite bad. The large courtyard in South hydlaa outside moren and nevis near the closed gate was really bad. The garden next to the temple near the gazebo was also bad, i'm guessing because of the grass. I finally settled with the current location in the courtyard behind boris, little lag, little targetting problems. We've had quite some fun.
The problem with limiting mobility is that it would make ulbernaut hunting impossible. And, who in their right mind would stay in one place near a thing like that? Real hunters don't stay near their prey, they make slashing passes only moving in to strike. For the NPCs what we need is a system that allows them to time their attacks to our charges. This way people hitting and running will have to think about the NPC they are attacking.
I can't see how the duelling system can be changed to allow players to duel like we normally fight NPCs. This is a really old topic. Basically the weapon system deal too much damage, especially with dual weapons. It's basically one hit kill with fastest/best-timed/luckiest fighter in. The skill serves as a means to boost the damage to the point you can one-hit K.O. Perhaps if we adjusted it so that two fighters of roughly the same skill should spend 80% of their hits being blocked. They should get the odd glancing blow in which deals a little damage and weakens the opponent. Eventually the opponent is weakened to the point that a clean finishing blow can be struck, which will be easier to do on a weakened opponent.
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I think the disappearing bug is largely a problem with lag. (...)
Yes, but should lag be a factor in combat at all? Is combat in PS going to be more like an arcade game or more like AD&D?
The problem with limiting mobility is that it would make ulbernaut hunting impossible. And, who in their right mind would stay in one place near a thing like that? Real hunters don't stay near their prey, they make slashing passes only moving in to strike. For the NPCs what we need is a system that allows them to time their attacks to our charges. This way people hitting and running will have to think about the NPC they are attacking.
Hit and running should be a skill then, one called dodging. And ulbernaughts should be nearly impossible for a single character to kill! You should need a party of 10 people, and you should expect 50% losses!
Actually, my character is perfectly capable of killing ulbernaughts without cheating by hitting and running. Instead, I cheat by increasing my strength past 200 using might, then when I can't make it any bigger I attack. I might drink some HP-increasing potions first, and I'll drink health potions during the fight (another action that might be considered cheating by some). It's costly, but it works.
So ulbernaughts won't be impossible to kill, you'll just have to cheat a different way - using spells and potions to keep yourself alive, instead of exploiting the mechanics of the game.
I can't see how the duelling system can be changed to allow players to duel like we normally fight NPCs. This is a really old topic. Basically the weapon system deal too much damage, especially with dual weapons. It's basically one hit kill with fastest/best-timed/luckiest fighter in. The skill serves as a means to boost the damage to the point you can one-hit K.O. Perhaps if we adjusted it so that two fighters of roughly the same skill should spend 80% of their hits being blocked. They should get the odd glancing blow in which deals a little damage and weakens the opponent. Eventually the opponent is weakened to the point that a clean finishing blow can be struck, which will be easier to do on a weakened opponent.
If it's luck of the draw, maybe people will think that much longer before engaging in a duel with someone who's as skilled as they are?
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Why would drinking health potions during combat be cheating?
This is a good thread for a number of reasons, and I have several reactions:
1. The way attack auto-stops when you get out of range was never intended to be the permanent way fighting works. It was a hack just after CB came out to get around people exploiting NPC stupidity by playing with ranges. We need to fix that for both players and npcs.
2. I really like Zan's idea about how depending on your incident angle to the target, your shield has more effect or your weapon has more effect, or if your back is to the attacker, you are at a big disadvantage. I want to talk to Talad about that and see about doing it. I think it is a good improvement to our current rules.
3. Perhaps running out of (a wider) range in a duel should be an auto-yield. It is certainly yielding behavior to run away.
- Vengeance
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Why would drinking health potions during combat be cheating?
Because it's OOC. Realistically, you can't drink dozens of potions using a hotkeyed shortcut while still dodging, parrying, and hitting your enemy. So if your character is doing it, then it's OOC. It's cheating because it's a bit of an exploit. It doesn't help that you can make a shortcut to drink several potions at the same time, while also eating whatever fish, bread, mushrooms, and pies are in your inventory.
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If you can do it in the game and its not a bug then its not cheating :P
Whats to stop a mage form casting heal spells all the time or shield spells etc..
Or from running away whilst casting Fireball or Arrow..
Whats to stop a Ranged unit form taking pot shots at you from a distance?
Is it a DUEL in terms of Chivalry ? or is it a fight to the death ?
If its a duel in terms of Chivalry (you know the old walk 10 paces then turn and shoot, or pick your weapons beforehand then only use that weapon)
then ofcourse you shouldn't have potions, magic, ranged weapons etc..
but if its a fight to the death then anything goes.
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If you can do it in the game and its not a bug then its not cheating :P
Whats to stop a mage form casting heal spells all the time or shield spells etc..
Or from running away whilst casting Fireball or Arrow..
Whats to stop a Ranged unit form taking pot shots at you from a distance?
Is it a DUEL in terms of Chivalry ? or is it a fight to the death ?
If its a duel in terms of Chivalry (you know the old walk 10 paces then turn and shoot, or pick your weapons beforehand then only use that weapon)
then ofcourse you shouldn't have potions, magic, ranged weapons etc..
but if its a fight to the death then anything goes.
I agree that in a fight for survival, everything goes. However... it simply isn't realistic to drink so many potions at once in such a short period of time while doing so many other things at the same time. It's going to be changed, and the RPers see it as OOC. I guess it's not right to call it a "cheat", but still...
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I think getting an extra attack if someone moves away makes good sense, as long as they are running away, not just taking a step back and putting up their shield. It would be an attack of opportunity. Also it makes sense to switch to full defensive mode if you back away. Not many retreat with their shields down. I wouldn't even mind seeing attack power increase a bit too if you are running foreward - like a charge. This attack though should also leave you a bit vunerable for a brief period of time. There really is plenty that could be done, but no matter what exploits of the game mechanics will exist and be used. Sometimes there isn't much to do but hope the honor system works.
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I agree that in a fight for survival, everything goes. However... it simply isn't realistic to drink so many potions at once in such a short period of time while doing so many other things at the same time.
it simply isnt realistic to drink a potion and get healed but hey thats the beauty of magic..
and besides who says how big the potions are ?
they may be tiny little vials like shots...
I'm sure you could take a few nips from your healing flask if you were about to be pummelled intot he ground...
I think most RPGs have a solution to the idea of drinking 50 potions in 5 seconds..
I'm pretty sure that in most rpg games you need to give up a turn in order to drink a potion or cast a spell... with spell if you get hit while casting you lose the spell..
you could have something similar for potions..
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as far as combat goes. I pretty much consider all combat involving the game mechanics as OOC combat (unless there's an actual RP/plot reason for the combat) Reason being, I don't really consider the character in the game an accurate representation of the character in my head.
Well...until his stats get tweaked enough to where he's a close representation. That, and no matter how fleshed the combat is, some jerk is going to find someway to exploit something in it.
It's a grey area I guess...but combat with the game mechanics isn't really what I consider "RP Combat". To clarify: This is the distinction we used back on the muds (at least our guild did) That if you were to RP a fight it had to be typed out in the entirety. We weren't to use the game as the means for combat, simply because our characters in the mud weren't an accurate representation of the characters RP-wise. Now...Planeshift is certainly not a MUD ... well, not text based at least *cough*cough* And the systems are pretty free-form, so In essence, I guess in time my character/avatar if you prefer, could grow to become an accurate representation of the RP version. But I'm still kinda on the fence on that one. Chances are, I won't seriously duel someone in the RP sense until my character is up to par with what he should be in my head. Of course, what's in me head...well...let's not go there :)
eh, maybe i'm just trying to stay -too- seperated from my character ;)
So, I guess my point is I don't see a problem quaffing potions like a lush in the heat of battle if you can type/click/whatever fast enough *smirk* Same goes for spells. That is, against mobs at least. When it comes to fights to the death, or even chivalry, I pretty much use the same fighting style, i.e. no potions, just my own skills with the blades until one of us goes down or yields. Vay's not a magic user, just twin shortswords, and some fancy footwork. Though, I will say that until the game gets further along in its development, the chances of me dueling are pretty much nil ;) Bring on the PvE! ^_^
On a side note: about the potions vs. spell when getting hit. if you get hit while trying to quaff a potion, you could have the vial/bottle shatter (possibly sending glass flying into the user's face :devil: ) I do like the idea of quaffing a potion requiring a turn or round of combat too, it would make sense for it to require such, and require the user to be more wary about using potions on the fly.
*evilgrin* make using a potion force a de-equip of one hand. Can't grab something from the pouch if your hands are full ^_^ *cackles and wanders back into the shadows*
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In real life what takes longer ?
Punching someone in the face.. or drinking a glass of milk ?
my point was only that if you hit the attack button it takes time for you to swing no matter how many times you hit the button..
so in the same line of thinking.. if you hit the drink or eat button.. it should take some amount of time. Spell casting takes time.. but currently eating food or drinking potions doesnt really
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I agree that drinking a potion should take a few seconds and that your attack mode should be stopped while doing it.
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Vaylos, I'm afraid that I strongly disagree with your position.
We can't just enter the game with a new character and decide "I'm going to RP the most powerful necromancer in the entire world!", or "I'm a ninja! I can dodge anything!". In PS, we're roleplaying characters who start off relatively inexperienced with only a modest life history, and through our travels and adventures we increase in skill and experience. This grown is expressed through stats.
You're talking about roleplaying your character, but your character is fresh off the farm because of the fundamental nature of Planeshift. It's by design that we don't start off with powerful statistics, because it's not who our characters are until they actually spend time doing things.
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I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but battles and sword vs. sword encounters (where "life is on the line") have never been a stationary fight. They were usually one group running full bore at another group running at them with arrows raining down. The victor was that group with the most standing afterwards. This is very much the "hit and run" you're opposed to. Battles were never the "Princess Bride" style of fight. But that makes a great movie. For PvP maybe a full on animation of parry, thrust, block, "but I'm not left handed either", giant swing, drop sword, offer sword, etc. is ok. But it certainly isn't the way a battle occurs.
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thats how them mongols created the biggest land empire that ever existed.
simply by breaking all the rules...
when the europeans rode out to meet them.. expecting a duel of the top fighter versus the top fighter on each side..
the mongols would simply surround them and cut them down with arrows..
the europeans soon learned to change their tactics ;)
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I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but battles and sword vs. sword encounters (were "life is on the line") have never been a stationary fight. They were usually one group running full bore at another group running at them with arrows raining down. The victor was that group with the most standing afterwards. This is very much the "hit and run" you're opposed to. Battles were never the "Princess Bride" style of fight. But that makes a great movie. For PvP maybe a full on animation of parry, thrust, block, "but I'm not left handed either", giant swing, drop sword, offer sword, etc. is ok. But it certainly isn't the way a battle occurs.
We're talking about one on one duels here. Guild Wars are an extention of that. To be honest... I'm not sure how your post really fits in with the rest of the thread, because you didn't really address the problems with the current mechanics.
thats how them mongols created the biggest land empire that ever existed. simply by breaking all the rules... when the europeans rode out to meet them.. expecting a duel of the top fighter versus the top fighter on each side.. the mongols would simply surround them and cut them down with arrows.. the europeans soon learned to change their tactics ;)
The mongols were horsemen though, which was their major advantage. If it wasn't for their mobility, they wouldn't be able to pull that stuff off in battle, and they wouldn't be able to move as far or as quickly as they did.
But your post is off topic. We're not talking about ranged attacks.
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Zanz, I did NOT mean to suggest RPing as the most powerful bloke on the block. And as far as characters go, I should clarify that Vaylos is -not- native to the planeshift world. He's an outworlder who got teleported/transferred/insert-jargon, so he's not starting from scratch. If I were to create a character who was native to the planeshift settings RP-wise, then yes, he'd be starting from scratch as you suggested.
I never never nver never meant to suggest RPing as "all powerful" I meant that I would RP vaylos as he is, and believe me he has plenty of disadvantages. I'm not a powergaming/powerRPing yutz ya know heh ;)
The Only thing I can suggest about my character that would appease youre mind, would that be, being from a different plane of existance, he could essentially be starting from scratch since the fighting styles/cultures/customs/government/wildlife,...well...everything would be alien in nature to him. So in essence, in a way, maybe he'd have to re-learn everything. That I can accept. However that doesn't mean he's fresh off the farm, and he has his own backstory and experiences.
Any -other- character I create would be a native planeshiftian, so he would pretty much RP/Characterwise be starting from scratch. Vaylos is my only exception.
Edit: Sorry for the off-topic. I just wanted to clear up any misunderstandings.
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Why would drinking health potions during combat be cheating?
- Vengeance
<scratches head with astonishment>
I agree with Zanzibar on his concerns with combat, and I am mistified as to what style of game Vengeance has in mind for the non-beta version of PS. If I wanted to jump/run all over the place drinking healing potions on hot keys, I would play a FPS or Diablo III. MMORPG combat is more like a boxing match than a gun fight. Generally I think this is done so server lag is not as big of a deal as it is in a FPS.
I would think that the intiator of the duel would be considered ready to attack, and at the time the duel acceptor presses the accept button, the player with the longest weapon range would hit first. Even with the two players running at each other, timing of the duel accept button should have no effect on the fight.. I am also a big fan of the auto follow your target that Shadowbane has. Once you are engaged in toe to toe combat only having faster foot speed will allow you to escape your attacker. Without the auto follow feature it is a matter of who's computer has the best Frame rate and least lag. I would also think that being engaged in combat would lower your foot speed. If your really wanted to retreat you would have to turn auto attack off to gain full foot speed.
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It's quite possible to drink a potion during a fight, and not OOC. However, I think we should penalise for it. I would like it if non-combat actions gave a malus to your defense for say 1 second or so (time depending on the action). So swapping a weapon, drinking a potion, etc. would make you vunerable for a short time.
Also I'd like us to have 'hunger' and 'thirst', where you can only eat or drink when you're not full. Should stop people drinking 10 potions during a fight. I think SWG used something like this and it was very effective.
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The wish is simple:
If you move, you automatically change to a full defensive stance.
Why? It would mean no more 'hit and run' attacks. This would lead to better fights with monsters I think.
It's also because it will eliminate half a dozen exploits which people use in duels. The devs use to hate 'hit and run' attacks in duels, saying that it was cheating and that it worked around the mechanics of the game, but then they accepted it since players didn't pay attention. Now, it's a common practice. A required one, in fact, since everyone is doing it.
Another exploit it would eliminate is that you can put the "yes" button to accept the challenge right over the bloody attack icon, so you can start your attack the instant you accept the duel, and run up and kill your oponent before they're ready. Another one is the disapearing act some characters do in certain maps, especially the death realm it seems. You're running around so much that you disappear on the other guy's screen - some people have learned to exploit this bug to their advantage.
I think that these tactics in duelling take away from the game. Others probably disagree. Since I think my wish is a relatively easy fix to this maybe problem, I think that it should be considered and discussed.
I completely disagree about removing the "hit-and-run" method of dueling. First of all, just standing there and attacking without moving would be utterly skill-less. The person with daggers will always kill the person using short swords, as they're hit first, and if each does a bit over 100 damage, they'll kill the other person before their slower swords finish swinging. Broadswords and longswords would be useless. Spells would be useless. A stronger character would defeat a weaker character 100% of the time. It would be as predictable and skill-less as a game of tic-tac-toe.
I like how dueling is handled right now. Stronger characters and those with faster weapons do have an advantage, but a weaker player still has a chance, weapons are more even, and magic is useful. Since dueling is optional, people don't have to duel if they don't want to.
The bug where people disappear during battle is a problem that seems to have started with 3.014 client. It is highly annoying, but seems to affect everyone the same. When I lose target on Redic, he loses target on me at the same time. I don't think anyone could use this as an exploit, as everyone is affected at the same time. I do look forward to this being fixed though.
I enjoy dueling as a fun and challenging part of PS. There are maybe 20 people that I practice dueling with in the death realm library, and I know there are other groups of people that also practice together. If the "hit and run" aspect were removed, then I think PS would lose much of its appeal for many.
-Drahlian
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I completely disagree about removing the "hit-and-run" method of dueling. First of all, just standing there and attacking without moving would be utterly skill-less.
The problems you listed are from ballance issues that will be solved down the road. Another point to remember is that it should take years to max out a character, unlike how it is now.
The "skills" you speak of are arcade skills and therefore OOC. It's exactly those skills that myself and others would like to see eliminated from gameplay.
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The "skills" you speak of are arcade skills and therefore OOC. It's exactly those skills that myself and others would like to see eliminated from gameplay.
Why?
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The "skills" you speak of are arcade skills and therefore OOC. It's exactly those skills that myself and others would like to see eliminated from gameplay.
Why?
Read this thread from the beggining. In short, it's because a lot of those skills are essentially how good you are at exploiting the game mechanics. On top of that, it bipasses the mechanics written into the game by the devs.
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What if the game mechanics would be made so that they are meant to be 'exploited' like that, making them a part of combat mechanics?
Just because moving around is an exploit now doesn't mean it should be banned, perhaps it just needs to be optimized to be less exploitable and more fair for all. Step one would be doing away with the automated end attack command when you go out of range.
I agree with you that moving around is an exploit right now but I disagree that the solution to that should be doing away with mobile combat.
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What if the game mechanics would be made so that they are meant to be 'exploited' like that, making them a part of combat mechanics?
That is for the devs to decide. From my understanding, hit and run attacks were illegal, but then the devs and game masters decided that they couldn't stop people from doing them so they stopped making a fuss about it.
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(Hi all, I'm new here.)
I think there are two opposing ideas of the fight mechanics. First, you build the character and introduce him to a fight, make strategic decisions, etc, and the game simulates the arcade part. Second, you control the character's arcade action with the game merely capping your abilities a bit (how fast you can swing a sword).
The first is more role-playing oriented I think. It has the unfortunate quality that by following this voluntary practice you hurt yourself relative to those that dont... This is something like macro-economics: how to encourage right behavior through system design. I actually do fight mostly this way though maybe because I am new, with the exception of guzzing healing potions I wasn't aware that you could effectively hit and run (except to flee when fighting unknown monsters).
The problem with the second is that the game isn't nearly accurate enough to make it similar to a real fight. I think the main issue though is physics. First, the characters move at full speed at all times - the main problem with using hit/run in real life is that it simply takes time and energy to do this.
You can't sprint everywhere all the time - when you run your body speeds up and slows down. The energy expended by your body is mostly expended when you change speeds (and some loss due to the up and down motion of running, which is partly due to humans not having all four legs on the ground...)
If you want to simulate this in the game, make the jump forward and backward during a fight cost a big pile of stamina. Make the healing potion take time to work and time to 'clear the throat', i.e. limit the healing speed as suggested.
Similarly, running backwards should be replaced with turning and running forward in most cases, complete with 'exposing the backside' to damage.
Also, the ability to run through an Uber seems just wrong - real physical combat would be *completely* different if one person couldn't block a doorway or stand in someone else's way.
Changing this means that an aggressive guild could take over a small town by blockading the doorway and fighting incoming people. I think this would be excellent actually, albeit probably annoying in practice (just as it is in our world). It also doesn't fit well into the idea of being able to reject PvP attacks. Maybe you should be able to run through anyone who rejects your attack - this makes sense - if they won't fight they can't block you right?
... In an ideally realistic world anyway. How all this fits into release schedules, packet networks, etc. is harder to say. But the game would be more effective and immersive if the valley with a dozen trepors actually required you to pick your way through if you can't kill a trepor yet.
Kevin
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Interesting idea. I don't think I've heard anyone suggest that collision damage should be turned off if someone declines to duel.
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Dueling is optional. I guess I'm thinking of extending that idea - if your guild wants to claim (for instance) a market booth, or (in the future) some kind of guild 'frathouse' that you can buy in game, then they could also defend it. Rather than let anyone in, they can guard the front door. The would be grouped and attack anyone who didn't have permission to enter.
You could run past them if they refused to fight (and they would, if you were an especially dangerous type). Similarly, if there are bullies blocking the water fountain (gold mine, smith), etc. you would need to bring an army to clear them out.
I'm thinking this is more relevant in the hypothetical future where building ownership and so on is possible. It doesn't make sense to buy a house or a guild hall if everyone is going to run through the living room looking for loose items. Rather than have the game control these things, it would make sense (to me) to use a solution that mimics real life.
I realize its not an 'infantry' game, but I'm thinking more like west side story - jets vs. sharks.
Kevin
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\\o// I think these ideas are mostly good, however i think the combat system does need a little changing.
The current system relies on lagtime[ping]. you challenge someone and you start spam-clicking bloody attack, hoping to get about 10clicks per second or so. The other person, moves teh accept button over the bloody button and begins a bombardment of the buttons. That is ok, but then [as you will always have] one guy lives next door to the server with a 1ms ping and i live 450ms away. The guy with the low ping hits the button first according to the server and gets the first hit in. This is sadly not very realistic. as he would normally mash the oponent with 450 ping to a pulp before he even knew he had clicked accept.
Now i dont know how to fix that? a total change of the system maybe? i dont know, Maybe a leveling and combat system something like Oblivion's [new sp game by bethesda] combat system would be good, ok its an SP game, but surely the combat way can be taken from that??
At the moment "turn" based battle just doesnt work as there are too many OOC exploits with it. PLers celebrate while others just ignore it all.
Also: its a little off topic but its been mentioned, walking through people, it sucks. You put people in the way of a room where you are talking in private, like a guard, and then someone comes up, you tell them to stop IC, but they just walk right through you, pick up everything in the room, and then just walk back out through you. That needs to be fixed somehow, a good idea was mentioned, if the duel is declined the char becomes walk-throughable. Maybe there should be non-combat stances like, guard and normal. so when you are normal you can be walked through? but when on guard you have to decline(/timeout) to be walked through.
I dont know what the devs are planning, but i hope its something along these lines? because at the moment, PVP and fighting is just as pointless as stabbing oneself with a paperclip in an attempt to make cheese.
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When they come round to doing a little work on combat again, after the rest of the more important stuff, they should probably consider the use of "hitboxes". This could be bring a very subtle but interesting change to where you hit an enemy. Or as I understand it anyway. Basically the animation picks a box to hit at random and then changes the original path of object A to hit one of the points on object B.
So instead of just hacking through someones torso all the time, or cleaving through their heads, you could have it alter so you go through an arm or the chest etc. Couple this with a little more movement and it would be quite good.
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I have been playing "Voices of Area 51", an FPS with multiplayer (via internet), for some time now, and have made up my mind a bit about combat mechanics.
Sorry for the long post beforehand ;)
1. Sometime ago I proposed a new way of movement that could solve a bunch of problems, for instance the falling downstairs accidentally, the impossibility to walk really slow, but also a major problem here with combat.
Easy put: Movement should be based on acceleration.
That means, if you press the forward button, you dont move with a predefined velocity but you accelerate (similar to car racing games) linear (or more like dampened logistic growth) to an upper limit, say 40. When you release the button, you slowly brake until you reach velocity 0. If you press backwards, you accelerate to the limit -20.
In implementation terms that could be realised by start/stop events on pressing and releasing the buttons. When a start event occurs, a package is sent to the server, including a timestamp. The Server calculates an acceleration up to the given limit, until a stop event (+timestamp) reaches the server. The server keeps track of the events and interpolates the position to a given time. The server sends then the calculated position to the client in order to synchronize.
Ingame that would allow very slow motions, smooth acceleration and braking (preventing people from falling downstairs, for instance), but also a pretty easy implementation of modification of velocity limits (for example taking the weight into account) and acceleration (taking agility into account).
That would also make jumping back and forth a lot more difficult, because the backwards-acceleration could be slower than forwards, also the upper limit on running backwards isnt as high as running forwards. For a quick back and forth you'd also need an exorbitant agility.
2. A circle in the middle of the screen could indicate the direction from where the hit came and the amount.
3. Showing the back to the enemy might make critical strikes highly possible.
4. Usually you can grasp a little vial also with a hand that already is carrying a shield or sword, therefor the need to unequip before drinking a healing potion wouldn't be realistic.
5. Eating and drinking normal food and drinks should indeed require to unequip and take a longer time to eat and a much longer time to regenerate the wounds.
6. The effect of a healing potion must not be instantly. It requires time to drink the potion (1-3 sec not being able to attack and loosing the vial when getting hit) and it requires time to heal, depending on the strength of the potion and the amount of HP. Drinking more healing potions should speed up the healing process.
Also healing potions could be regarded as "drugs", meaning that the usage of one sort of healing potion could be limited to 6 potions per (ingame) day, requiring players to take care a lot more.
7. Like in Voices of Area 51 I'd like to see special effects like a strongly shifted visual spectrum when playing a race with nightvision or when using a potion that gets you into a berserk rage.
8. If you get hit on a specific body part, this body part should be affected. For instance every single bodypart could have HP internally and the average could be calculated for the player. If a bodypart gets hit, the effectivity of this part could be reduced.
9. In Jagged Alliance (still one of my favourite tactic games) a player looses HP over time when a wound is not being taken care of.
That however would require a medecine skill and one or two specific items (small and big medecine box, for example). The injuries of a player who is down below 10% of his HP could only be taken care of someone with, say 30 in the medecine skill. The skill level also affects the time how long it takes to take care of the wounds.
In JA the wounds which are taken care of don't heal instantly when being treated, but still count as wounds, as long as they arent regenerated. They are indicated with orange, meaning that they arent regenerated but aren't open (getting worse) neither.
10. A "Follow target" command would be _very_ useful, not only in combat, but also in normal gameplay.
11. Last but not least I think collision detection on entities should be enabled, really. This however isn't an easy thing to balance. Here are some ideas on that:
In general, players can't walk through other players and can't push them away. If a player moves against another player, a comparison between the strength stats of both players could be taken as factor to determine the success of the pushing. Also the velocity and direction of the two players (even the weight) might be taken into consideration whether the pushing action was successful.
Pulling would require an extra command, because it depends also on the agility and how you grasp the other.
If this automatic push/pull mechanic is too sensible for abuse, an alternative might be considered:
On right-click an extra push/pull button is available, making it possible to push/pull the target for 2-5 seconds, depending on the difference between of Str/Agi and the direction the acting player is moving.
However, I see some potential abuse in this idea, it surely needs some more thought.
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Hi Kerol,
#1 is hard to do well, but could be done with some effort I suppose. I like 2, 3, 4, 8 and 10. Some of those are major rule changes though and will require an act of Congress (i.e. Talad) to change, which isn't going to happen.
- Venge
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Hi Venge,
Thanks for the positive response :)
but
major rule changes though and will require an act of Congress (i.e. Talad) to change, which isn't going to happen.
not so pessimistic :D
We will see what the future brings ^^
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1. Like the idea. Would definately help when climbing down stairs and such although I still feel that it shouldn't have to be solved this way but well atleast it would be somewhat solved this way ;)
2. hmm don't like the idea of something in the middle of the screen, but when long distance attacks a direction would be nececary to not get highly unfair advantages for the ones who use them.
3. That I would love. Getting some tactics in fighting is definately a plus.
4. Agree. and even one has to wonder how much you want these kind of things to be realistic. i mean true it can be used with a little misuse but I get the impression it is more often used by people who are trying to take on stronger monsters and I like that people think of ways like that to kill the dragon so to say ;)
5. Also agree but then again feel normal food should have more effect then it has atm. Eating fish or bread atm hardly does anything that really matters and is about the worsed loot you can get ;)
6. 3 seconds of drinking sounds a bit long. Think the healing should be spread over time more like regenerating, but the drinking itself shouldn't take more then one or two hits.
7. Should happen ofcourse but that is for the future so can't really comment on that as it's simply not implemented yet ;)
8. Sounds like fun but might be hard to implement without giving the player to many things he has to look at during combat.
9. Perhaps something like you loose hitpoints till you used something like a healing potion to heal some hitpoints?
10. Follow would be really handy when showing people around. With lag and such following someone is sometimes really hard and seeing if someone is following you almost impossible.
11. Think players should indeed not be able to walk thruough other players. Definately with things like group combat this makes for nice combo's with spellcasters behind meleepeople and for people to look for places where there stategy works best. Were it a place with a lot of room or a little.
Pulling however I don't think should be implemented. Hard to pull someone who is trying to cut you.
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How I imagine fight:
Man is very aware of not to be hurt by the opponent (that depends on his rage). They are moving in circle waiting for good opportunity to attack (weak spot, ballance/movement of enemy which make him easier to hit, that depends on fighter experience). When attack is performed the opponent is trying to defend (parry, dodge) and possibly use this situation to perform counterattack (which is in many cases the crucial moment in fight because the opponent is distracted by failed attack and he's not in optimal defensive position). The opponents are not running around because while wearing armour and drawn weapons it's very exhaustive. I think it's the same for humans and creatures (imagine fight between human and tiger).
If fighter decide to cast a spell he should be sure he won't be distracted by opponent (be more distanced from him).
When one of the combatants decide to flee he should throw away his weapons to run more effective (or at least sheathe his weapons), turn to opponent his back and run for life. Running backward is not much effective as long it is slower than few forward leaps of opponent. The speed of running should be determined by current fatique and current encumberance.
How I imagine fight in PS:
IMO is not possible to perform realtime fights like in Oblivion (which I like very much and it's very close to my imagination of fights) due lags. But my conception of turn based fight is some kind of boring. This could be improved to queue some kind special (power) attack. I like this idea because it's easier to anime to look it nice.
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for me the ideal combat theme would be a mix of arcade fighting games (movement combos etc) combined with the skill each skill would require a combination of movements before you could make the skill ex: (forward, back, forward, skill"leap attack") could make more complex combos for stronger skills.
also this would also add skill to the fighting it self..
i tink the duel system could be made with dynamic invitations helping the RP factor:
example:
removing the request window, and passing it to the chat window. say playerA asks playerB for duel
playerA:(activates "duel" comand on playerB) playerA points his sword to playerB!
playerB:(activates "Yes" command) playerB accepts the duel!
open PVP in restricted areas, this includes arenas for (FFA's,Team combat, tournaments), Guild Raid(no alliances) maps, alliance war's(octarch rulership maybe) raid maps...
this places would be away from comonly used pathways so it wouldnt mess with those that arent apologists with the idea of PK, also they would be marked as dangerous places(a confirmation/warning could be needed).
safe zones in this places should be high areas were you could go out but not return(alternatively a timer to reenter the safezone), to avoid border griefing.
other sports competitions: capture the flag, obstacle race, etc
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As before, my view on a usable combat system is that it needs to be either a fully manual or a fully automeated one. Since the fully manual ones are FPS/arcade style and depend heavily not only on lag, but also on player skill in handling their I/O devices, player's own I/O mechanisms and attributes (reaction speed, experience, etc.), they are IMO very much unsuited for something like PS that places emphasis on not the player, but the character. It's not surprising that in an FPS you don't usually find a rich set of skills and stats, even though that notion isn't completely absent in some.
Thusly, the only viable way is to make it in no way depend on the player or the player's location / wealth, and that means a fully automated system. Once combat begins, the server takes control of the characters, with the player being able to watch and do strategic control only, like select stance, select specific attacks, weapons, potions / magic, fleeing and so forth. Granted, this control option still leaves room for exploits as well as being affected by player / system specs, but in a severely limited way.
Yes, using the system that is in place ATM can be fun. Exactly as much fun as glitching into normally inaccessible places, in fact. However, both are not in accordance with what PS wants to be: a realistic and nondicriminatory game. The devs are striving to remove the glitching part of PS, as it certainly is neither realistic (though often more realistic than the actual implementation ATM (climbing...)) nor IC (walking through walls isn't for everyone...) nor nondiscriminatory (some glitching requires good (ab)use of the controls). Therefore, the same must be done for combat, and the, or one of the, reasons little progress is being made there is because 1) so many people focus on combat as a cheap way of gaining "fame", 2) so many people are used to FPSses and love them (like me), but don't see (or want, or can't) the very different genre of these games that any move to better the system results in great whining throughout the playerbase, and I'm pretty sure that at least some devs suffer the same issues, while the glitchers usually are not only well aware that they are bypassing / abusing things, but don't create fame by doing it over and over, but by doing it first. It's still OOC and sort of cheating, though not malicious and not harmful (except for those unfortunate occasions where malicious "fighters" glitch into unreachable position and kill from there, usually targetting newbies).
Kerol's suggestions would work perfectly well with a fully (or almost fully) automated system, and I like most of them (collision detection will be excessively abused, and I see a giant pile of /petitions asking GMs to remove block-griefers over and over again. I can completely shut down Ojaveda by creating an army of alts that simply idles blocking all entrances and passageways. While timing out would technically work, having to wait for the timeout each and every time one needs to pass through one of my 100 hypothetical alts will severely slow down gameplay, with absolutely no RP benefit at all). Even with only a few block-griefers in strategic locations like Harnquist's, gameplay can be severely disturbed, and we should never underestimate the extreme lengths people go to in order to cause grief to others (sometimes, mostly by the griefers, also referred to as "being funny").
To follow up on Kerol's sig quote: No system can compensate the lack of personal opinion.
No system can compensate lack of common sense. And since common sense starts lacking immediately when there is any chance of getting away with it, if we don't very carefully design a system to be abuse-proof to the maximum degree possible, we will end up constantly asking ourselves "why is there so much abuse?".
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could be both types altho it would be twice the hassle..
you got fighter and mage types
fighters could be more manual and mages more automated or the inverse, or a lill bit of each in both
you could have a set of skill that would be more manual and another set more automatic...
i guess the question is what would fit in better within planeshift goals.
but to have automatic combat, whats the point of fighting? everything would be prewritten before the fight eaven starts, while the manual fight gives the skill factor to the fight and makes the small fish actually have a slim chance, because while the skills help they arent every thing.
lag wouldnt interfere with the casting progress unless it would be graphic lag, since it would be controled locally and the result is what it would be sent to server, much like it would be when automatic.
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i guess the question is what would fit in better within planeshift goals.
but to have automatic combat, whats the point of fighting? everything would be prewritten before the fight eaven starts, while the manual fight gives the skill factor to the fight and makes the small fish actually have a slim chance, because while the skills help they arent every thing.
Not at all. Just as there is now, there obviously will be a random factor involved. That doesn't just refer to the actual chance to hit, but also to the attack / combination / sequence selected by each party (influenced by what the supervising players set to be used, possibly with percentage). Even cloned chars, everything being completely equal, including client settings and no interaction of the supervising player, would still not only show a 50/50 chance of winning for each, but also a different sequence of attacks, defenses and outcomes each fight. Actions and responses would be not pre-calculated, but done on the fly, taking into account what happened beforehand, and leaving said room for supervisor changes.
Thusly, there will still be the chance of the low skilled char to defeat the high skilled one. It would just not be possible to destroy the balance by employing so called "tactics" and other exploit tricks to get around the system on the weak char's part.
The combat system in PS is not meant for ranking player abilities. That is what an FPS is for. If you want an FPS, play an FPS. If you want a banana, eat a banana, don't cut an apple into banana-like shape, soak it in artificial flavourings and colours in order to make it a banana for everyone else, while the ones planting the apple tree wanted apples, not bananas...
lag wouldnt interfere with the casting progress unless it would be graphic lag, since it would be controled locally and the result is what it would be sent to server, much like it would be when automatic.
Rule #1 in multiuser environments: Never, ever trust the client. This means that nothing that has any effect must be calculated on the client. The server must do everything, and check everything that comes from the client, like commands, for plausibility and legitimation.
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As before, my view on a usable combat system is that it needs to be either a fully manual or a fully automeated one.
I think the plans for the fighting system in PS are semi-automatical as everything else (or at least everything else has the tendency atm) - like the crafting system for instance.
Exactly as much fun as glitching into normally inaccessible places, in fact.
I believe to recall a high dev stating that at some point all places can be explored, in any way. Thus there will be no "normally inaccessible places".
Since the fully manual ones are FPS/arcade style and depend heavily not only on lag, but also on player skill in handling their I/O devices, player's own I/O mechanisms and attributes (reaction speed, experience, etc.), they are IMO very much unsuited for something like PS that places emphasis on not the player, but the character. It's not surprising that in an FPS you don't usually find a rich set of skills and stats, even though that notion isn't completely absent in some.
Well. The war against lag certainly hasn't ended yet, there are promising ideas and developments recently that could reduce lag to a minimum, allowing more manual handling. Those are not only all server/client problems/bugs that willl be solved over time, a bad reachability of the server that could be solved with multiple servers, but also external developments like internet2 (the physical glassfiber high-speed network backbone that is spreading recently, together with vdsl).
With those developments, let's assume a lag-free future.
One problem indeed is the hardware on the client side. But a bigger problem I see there are disabled people. I really wish to see in the far future PS being at least to a high degree if not fully barrier-free. And there a hybrid manual-automatic combat system would be the best solution. If you want support those people it is thinkable to make it possible to disable a lot of features and set an automation instead.
For instance, select a lowest HP limit and when reached let the server overrule the client -> automatically run away/yield. That could help now already, as this feature would be lag independant.
My vision is to have the FPS-style features in combat, but to make it possible to exchange those with automatic ones, give the FPS lovers and haters and disabled people (in any kind of way, including not being able to buy costly hardware) appropriate ways to play.
collision detection will be excessively abused, and I see a giant pile of /petitions asking GMs to remove block-griefers over and over again. I can completely shut down Ojaveda by creating an army of alts that simply idles blocking all entrances and passageways. While timing out would technically work, having to wait for the timeout each and every time one needs to pass through one of my 100 hypothetical alts will severely slow down gameplay, with absolutely no RP benefit at all). Even with only a few block-griefers in strategic locations like Harnquist's, gameplay can be severely disturbed, and we should never underestimate the extreme lengths people go to in order to cause grief to others (sometimes, mostly by the griefers, also referred to as "being funny")
Although the example with the 100 alts is highly unlikely, I also see the problem with people blocking ways without means (for players) to remove them. That is why I suggested the push/pull option in the first place. I'd love to hear ideas how to solve the problems Seytra posted as I (it rarely happens but isnt impossible ;) ) have no concrete idea yet.
Edit: stupid typos...
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a option could be to raise the height of jump to be able to pass above it but this wouldnt work in all situations.
crawl action to disable colision detections beetween PC's? problems, polys of the diferent player mesh's would intersect causing bad effects. animations would be needed.
pushing is bad, people will exploit it to pull people off cliffs, into npc mobs etc altho this will only happen if the player is afk. incombat pushing will keep pulling characters back.
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Even with pushing (and I don't really see much difference to pulling, but it doesn't matter), and having it based on stats, you can't prevent abuse. It might make it possible for some well-levelled char to remove someone blocking the entrance, but it'll still be possible to create a char that is tailored towards blocking from the beginning and still get the majority of players griefed.
Furthermore, most, or at least a large percentage of all blocking would likely occur for OOC reasons. It is then quite unreasonable to expect players to be content with calling on well-levelled chars, provided any are online, to remove the block over and over again.
In order to have this work as intended, you'll need a very complete set of not only animations, but also movement modifiers like the suggested crouching, jumping, etc..
And while this is the wishlist, you can't really enable the simple to enable things now in order to make things more realistic, while the things that actually make the idea interesting and realistic have no chance of being implemented anytime soon[TM]. It's like enabling /attack but not having defense, block, parry, yield, etc. even in sight.
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I'm mostly in agreement with Drahlian on this one. The H&R system may not be what the devs intended, but it's probably better, and it gives training and skill a great balance.
It's good skill is important. Making combat purely the realm of PLers would be lame.
Of course Drahlian and I are biased for this action-packed format because we're good at it. If two people have uber training, but one has no skill, their training is of no worth, which should not be the case.
I think solutions should be simple-stupid, so I'm going to suggest a bar which fills up really quickly if you run at all, and takes a bit of time to drain. Unless this bar is empty, your strikes are far less accurate and powerful. Arcadey people can make use of their skills, but not to the point of neutralising character training.
This would reduce the impact of hit-and-run melee, without removing movement which enriches combat and adds a lot to the strategy of fights. Why couldn't someone good at climbing go up something high then rain arrows on the swordsmaster? When climbing is implemented, and jumping buffs agility, and chars can glide etc., this will add even more. Even now it means players have to think, not just go blindly into a fight because they PLed their SS and they will Pwn you.
As before, my view on a usable combat system is that it needs to be either a fully manual or a fully automeated one.
Give players a choice. Fully automated can only be accepted when the chars are toe-to-toe and they can't move until combat is finished. Manual can be accepted by players wanting to run around. It can be initiated from any distance, allowing chases and hunts.
What if the game mechanics would be made so that they are meant to be 'exploited' like that, making them a part of combat mechanics?
The single best decision Id Software ever made for the success of their Quake franchise was formalising the strafejump/bunnyhopping bug, instead of 'fixing' it.
Devs, if you love us, set us free.
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It's like enabling /attack but not having defense, block, parry, yield, etc. even in sight.
Then we need to enable the conter before the attack :)
New scripting operations to add support for new spells like transmutation and
invisibility (the spells are not yet in, but the engine now supports those)
Quote from the changelog. One could sneak behind the blocker without him being able to notice. With a better movement system, one could jump or fly over the other.
The main idea is having collision detection for chars enabled. If it is such a hassle to balance push/pull, why not leaving it out completely.
Collision detection can be implemented without big trouble just by allowing to "move through" somebody in one step, not with a continous movement.
More detailed:
Two persons A and B. A is standing at a spot and B stands in front of A. B wants to get past A.
B starts to move against A, and does so for a little while (like three seconds). The system detects the movement against a person and moves B past A, the direction B was facing. A isn't affected directly by that action at all (except that A isn't able to move in the same spot where B is standing).
Consequence: If the time to detect a movement against a person is high enough, it has exactly the combat-improving effect (as you are not able to move continously against a person in combat) that is being aimed for. Blocking doors is not easy anymore, as you would have to move forward and backward to prevent a continous movement against your char. But the moment you move back, the other person can move forward. So you only can delay a pass, not prevent it.
The only problem I can see there is what to do if two or more persons directly after another are blocking a passage, not just one. If the system moves the person who wants to go through past the last blocker, it is imaginable to have a chain of people allowing to kind of "teleport" someone over a distance.
The other extreme would be to disallow movement past more then one person.
I can think of two possible solutions:
1. Count the persons to move past and retard the movement per person.
2. "Glitch" the person who wants to go past inbetween the two blocking persons who are standing right next to each other, so it would be only a one-person movement each time (thats the first time I propose a graphic glitch as solution ::| ).
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I'm mostly in agreement with Drahlian on this one. The H&R system may not be what the devs intended, but it's probably better, and it gives training and skill a great balance.
It's good skill is important. Making combat purely the realm of PLers would be lame.
So you want Planeshift to be an arcade game?
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So you want Planeshift to be an arcade game?
I want PlaneShift to be a balanced game.
Primarily I want it to be an RP game, which it intends to be. When conflict arises in RP, the players have to agree on how the outcome will be decided.
To quote Vengeance "RP Sucks". He was referring to how it's always best to be able to actually do what you're roleplaying with real game features. Secondly, I know most players would rather a fight contain a little excitement and uncertainty about the outcome. So it's better for a system to cater for a wider range of combat possibilities.
If someone has no player skill and only has time for RP not training, unfortunately no combat system can cater for them. The only way they can have a chance is to RP the fight, and it's pretty disfunctional without pre-agreement on who will win.
The option for quazi-automatic battle would be good, as it would give uncoordinated players with training a viable option. But more importantly If there is no option for combat involving skill, far less players will agree to use the game mechanic.
If a combat system neglects the element of skill, then a large section of players who would normally have faith in their skill and the courage to face people with more training are effectively put in the same situation as noobs and pure-RPers (they can die, or RP the fight).
With no skill involved, few people will accept a duel knowing they have no chance. Far less often will players who RP an argument happen to be close enough in training to have an uncertain outcome. Gone will be the days of marvelling at characters' finesse and betting on the outcomes in Proglin's tournaments. Even when there is a closely-levelled match with uncertainty about the outcome, the most exciting thing will be one of them falling over.
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If someone has no player skill and only has time for RP not training, unfortunately no combat system can cater for them. The only way they can have a chance is to RP the fight, and it's pretty disfunctional without pre-agreement on who will win.
Strongly disagreed.
If you RP a fight by following this guide (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=19339.0) I wrote some time ago, you will see that the outcome is even more uncertain in an RP fight than in a PvP duel as it is possible to have both opponents giving up by exhaustion or both getting killed or one gets defeated, but not killed, etc.
There are a lot more possibilities how an RP fight can develop than a PvP fight nowadays; and NONE of the RP fights I have participated in have ever been predetermined by the players.
RP fights are one of the most difficult things to RP. But if done right, they provide so much more excitement and lengthier fights than PvP duels nowadays, as I proved
in a pure RP tournament in january this year.
I hope to see a PvP system that provides just as much depth and possible outcomes than an RP fight one day, but I don't think that will happen sooner than soon(tm).
Back on topic:
What do you think about my approach to have collision detection enabled, but without push/pull?
Btw, I just recalled something on the subject "automatic fights":
In "Das Schwarze Auge" (a german RPG), it was possible to switch to a fully automatic fight if you are too stupid/busy/tired to do the fight yourself.
It meant that the comp was calculating the fight turn by turn (the fighting system was turn based) for each opponent. You was able to take over any time or brake the fight by fleeing. I can imagine a similar system in PS, too. It would only require a lot better AI.
If you are not capable (either by lag, by weak computer ressources or whatever) not to fight a PvP fight, you could switch to automatic fight, letting the AI taking over.
You could watch in realtime what the AI is doing with your char, the stats and so on, while the other player could still fight manually and ideally wouldn't even notice that he is fighting against the computer.
One could set a lower limit before yielding/fleeing when the AI gives up and runs away, once the limit is reached.
It's also imaginable to set a fighting script, what the AI shall prefer and in what order and when. For instance "while distance > 10m to opponent use magic long range; while distance < 10m to opponent attack 1 with melee; if HP < 10% then yield"
If you think you can turn the tide, you always could take over the controlls, even in the fight.
I think thats the most convenient solution to the auto-fight or not - discussion.
Opinions?
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I was inspired to bump this thread after witnessing people fighting in the death realm as well as near Harnquist's shop. Also, I see that Kerol never recieved a response to his idea. I do think that automating combat in such a way has advantages.
Did my suggestion ever get a definitive reaction? I really really really think that this one is a keeper. Just to recap: If you are in a duel, or in any form of combat, make it so that you will automatically switch to a full defensive stance if you run. Just think of how much more in-character duels and combat will be if this was put into effect. The way things are now, duels are basically an arcade game which are heavily dependant on lag. The mechanics of the game - and the flavour of the game - are all but completely bipassed.
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I like the idea, but think I'd do it slightly differently. This is something I've been thinking about quite a bit lately, as to me the dueling in PS is, although basically a mistake, really fun. So after a bit of thinking, this is how I'd prefer it turn out in the end:
1) Change the way weapon range works, make it a circular area that is positioned slightly infront of the character. Basically your range would be extremely short from behind, and longer in front of you.
2) Start the timer for the attack when the character is both in range, not when they click to change stance
3) Once a character is in a stance they're in a stance, and being out of range does not cancel the stance, but instead the timer is just on hold
4) Increase rotation speed and strafing speed while significantly reducing the speed a player moves when running backwards
5) Cut the *four lines of expletives* damage values to around a quarter of their current values or increase player hp by 4x. Yes I know,
beta, but please, for the sake of our sanity...
The results I'd hope to achieve are these:
a) Player1 runs straight at Player2 and runs through him, neither hit as they were not in range long enough to do so.
b) Player1 runs straight at Player2 and runs through him, attempts to back up and hit Player1, but Player 2 turns around and kills Player1 before he's in range
c) Player1 thinks he's smart because he has daggers and player 2 has battle axes, player1 comes up, hits player2 and either turns and runs or runs away backwards, either way Player2 follows and either cuts him down from behind, or exchange blows as player1 backs up.
d) Player1 and Player2 are both smart, they run towards each other and attempt to exchange blows while at the same time trying to a point where the other is out of range.
IMO this would make things a little more exiting than a simple point and click system, but make it a little less dependant on lag and luck.
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John80sk, I think that your ideas would best be put in a new thread.
That said, I like the idea of combat stance being automated once you tell your character to be in a certain stance. However, the reason why we need something like that is because people run around like a frog in traffic in order to bug the other guy out. If we could eliminate that aspect of play, then I think the problem would no longer exist.
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I truely like John80sk's suggestions. Taking the fighting system as it is, i think they are all reasonable and feasible.
However, that would only improve the way things work now, it wouldn't be really a new way to fight (see topic ;) ).
Also thanks to Zanzibar for remembering that threat. I really liked to hear opinions about the idea, but over time I totally forgot about this :)
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It's dangerous to forget about threats, whether they be new or old.
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Good you reminded me on it ;)
Anyways, what do you think about the option to automatize duels for people who can't really fight on themselves, either hardware-wise or person-wise?
Like giving up the direct control over the char to NPCclient when a duel is starting. The player could watch and intercept at any time (for instance to run away), but it would make things easier for some people. In this case however, NPC behaviour would have to be improved a lot and make it much more dangerous to fight, discouraging the usage of the automated fighting option. However, by implementing the "botstuff" officially as option we'd get rid of those, as a sideeffect as well.
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The problem is that we'd still have a system reliant on hit and run attacks. If duelling is to be like an arcade game, then there needs to be a better way to go about it.
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/me suddenly spots a comment made earlier in the thread and ruins everything by speaking of it.
Another problem with it is that people just run through creatures like gladiators and ulbernaughts in order to kill the creature without being hit. Isn't that an exploitation of the game mechanics?
I'm not sure what the solution is, but am I the only one who sees this as a problem?
I've always been bothered by this as well. The reason it is the way it is currently afaik is because of spawning. If two people spawned in the exact same place and there was intercharacter collision detection it would cause bad things to happen. I think the solution would be to use locking on spawning locations so that when a char is spawning that location is locked, and a different random location is choosen in a certain radius. As for creatures I think the problem is similar and a similar approach could be used. Having character collision would eliminate one of hte really annoying parts of dueling.. running through someone then turning around.
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Either that or have the spawn points immune to collision detection. IE have a circle or 2-3 times the size of the largest puppet in diameter where people spawn and make it impossible to enter from outside. As soon as the puppets leave the boundaries of this region they bump. Inside they can do nothing but stand or leave.
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*Toomin attempts to cross the street, but is repelled by an invisible force. Then a huge Kran appears from nowhere, then from his chest region the arm of a Ylian pops out.
*Toomin decides to go back to his mountain and get some more sleep.
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The biggest problem with collision detection enabled on characters is that it is very exploitable. We want to minimize the possibility of players restricting others as much as possible.
For instance a high level char could keep a newb from entering the tavern collision detection is enabled *all the time*.
This however gives me the idea to only enable it during a fight - and only against the foe.
I think that is a feasible and best solution overall, what do you think?
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It would lead to using /unstick in combat. Though it be funy as heck to see somone spamming hit/flee on an Ulber only to get stuck on it. Just make it so the Monsters and characters can't hurt each other when it happens. Then like how in Real Life you see contests of how many people can fit in phone booth or in a VW bug. cept yopu replace the VW and booth with Ulbers and other characters. Plneshift can have the "how many characters can get stuck in combat" "how many extra limbs can an ulber aquire" contests. just a /screenshot will do.
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It would lead to using /unstick in combat.
There is code already in game to prevent this. Unstick in a duel and you auto forfeit. At least, I'm pretty sure that it was like that at one time.
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Ok, here's my incrtedibly quick fix while I think more indepth about this problem.
Chracters running through everything - Colission detection, no running through people, you can back up but you cant actually run strait through someone.
Movement in combat - Several styles of combat which effect the movment?
Untrained - You stand slightly hunched over, with your weapon raised and make clumsy steps, there is no real centre of gravity and your likly to miss or strike badly. Your lack of knowledge measn that you dont always have t face or opponent or run away. You can try and run to the side for what its worth. Your movement is pretty much asprint though, easily calculated and your opponent is likly to just stick their weapon out to the side and let you cut yourself in half on it.
Fencer - shuffles around in combat light on their feet, forever facing the opponent darting in an out, with emphasis on agility and speed. Can be used only with light swords or daggers.
Warrior - Feet pretty much shoulder width apart usually one slightly in front of the other to strengthen your balance, you face you enemy, it involves cirlcing and more
defensive manuavers such as parrying and blocking to avoid death, rather than dodging. This works better for Single handed weapons.
Headsman - Designed for double handed axes, You hold your axe across your body, the bottom hand faced up, the hand closest o the head facing down and from there you can make strong but slow attacks. Facing your ooponent at all times. Your movement is impaired by the axe but your axes position means that you have a decent chance of parrying a blow. To prolong your life more, its best to wear armor as your lack of manouverability can be exploited easily without it.
Zweihander - Used for the huge double bladed swords such as claymores and anything else thats more than four feet worth of edge. Better used with armor as your giant blade doesnt make you very quick, and your strike lthough powerful and forceful with velocity, they arnt very nimble. Again your always facing your opponent, and circling them. Your strikes are supposed to send them reeling and knock them off balance so you can finish them off when they arte at their weakest. That or you can see if you can cut strait through their guard. Whatever works best.
Assassin - Free roam in pretty much any direction up to a certain distance and must Always keep your oponent at least partially in view. Your aim is to outmanouver them using the scenery to hide and kill them via underhand methods such as slitting their throat, back stabbing, exploiting weak points in their armor, cutting tendons and rending them immobile before you finish them off. Poisons on your blade also work best with this. Used for small weapons such as daggers. Any armor heavier than leather impares and slows down your characters movementsso darting in and out of your opponennts range can become unreliable.
Berzerker - A stance given as a trait at birth rather than learnt. Those who are consumed with feverish bloodlust become crazed and uncontrollable, they are likly to ignore most wounds sustained and the fry of tyheir attacks can caused panic and fear in the most steadfast adversary. They charge like a stampede, making viciouse powerful strikes, their seemingly uncontrolled methods is simply guided by their senses and lust for carnage and so doesnt take any defensive manouvers although it can be incridbly deadly.
Note: These where simply some quick thought stances and I could probably think up some differant ones and improve those given time and effort etc.
The way this works: Pressing the strafe buton, now becomes instead of just stepping to the side you circle your opponent. For Styles that require you to face or opponent all the time this simple means side stepping in a circle. If you turn away your seen to run away from your adversary.
For the styles that dont require this, it simpy means that your caracter is alot more nimble and runs in cricle around your enemy darting in and out within a certain distance. You still cant turn fully away without running away because this simply means that your going to be stabbed in the back.