PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Proglin on June 09, 2006, 06:42:42 pm
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Inappropriate logs removed. The issues are serious, but our forum rules still stand.
Now... dear GM's and ctizens of PS. I know these are just logs and they are easely tempered with, so they will not do as proof to kick these people out of here. This is a game, you do not know who or what is on the other side of the world, talking with you. Mane people come in PS with honourable intentions, and they can even become great friends.
For those who herassed people, those who scolded at people... think twice before you even think of saying anything like this, you have no clue how much damage you can do with something as simple as text. and GM's, I understand uyour situation and respect the system of not trusting logs, one thing i'd like to know though... Is a GM allowed to make a judgement call in situations like these? Cause I'd HATE to see yet another 14 year old girl, terrified like hell, come running towards me saying she was herassed in a ... "Game"
Just to gicwe a sligh indication of what we are actually facing... all this was said in the past 7 days... imagine how much was said in a month.
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I am aware of one current situation and measures have been taken, if this is a seperate incident then that makes me angry and we will take a strong stance against this.
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I think this is seperate to the last incident that happened a few days back. There were always going to be idiots like this in the game. We just need to work out how to deal with them in the best way for everyone.
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This shouldn't have been posted publically, but brought up to those who have the ability to deal with such issues. GMs will try to be around in-game more and more. Also please remember /report.
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It's a shame such sick people express their sick feelings in Planeshift. Ban 'em all, we don't need them.
But Karyuu is right, the moment someone starts to talk to you like that report them and ask a GM to monitor that person's chat for evidence. A /warning, /kick or even /ban is quickly made then.
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says: [also spare me your threats. parents have a responsability to make sure their children are not playing games like this.]
>:( I wonder if this creep even read anything about this game, because children ARE allowed to play this game. (Small ones should have the super vision of an adult)
This really flippin ticks me off when people think like this, and I am guessing this person is not a parent. Judging by what you have posted ... he/she isn't very mature either and seems very selfish.
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3641/rant2cd.gif) Listen up to all of you who think that the responsiblilty relies on the parent. To a certain extent it does. I have stated in another thread that I would be checking up on my daughter every 15 minutes or so to see how she was interacting with the game .... and also checking over her logs to make sure there wasn't anything that shouldn't be going on. What I can't stand is that statement above though. A Parent can't be everywhere all the time. If I had to follow her around and check up on every little thing I would have no time for myself and be constantly chasing after my daughter. That wouldn't be a healthy relationship as she would feel more like a prisoner than a person with rights. Further more I wouldn't have to watch out for her so much if there wasn't happy aholes like this one above. It is ALSO the responsibility of the players and the Gm's and the Devs to watch out for the children in this community. This is a game for all ages. I am responsible for my child yes, but players are responsible to keep there mouths clean and understand when playing this game that there are children playing it. Gm's and Dev's are responsible for enforcing the rules if they are not kept. It is all to easy sometimes to blame the parents when things go wrong ......
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I offer my appolagies for posting the logs like that, I did not know about these rules. I left out names accordingly. And to make muself a little clearer. The comments in the logs, were maid by 4 different induviduals.
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Listen up to all of you who think that the responsiblilty relies on the parent.
Personally, I wouldn't recommend allowing a child under the age of 10 play PS (Or any MMO... except maybe ToonTown Online) unsupervised. Parents should play _with_ the child. If PS were commercial and published it would probably be given a 'Teen' rating due to the violence. Most MMO's are. This is definately not a game for all ages to play unsupervised :) GM's and devs can only do so much to keep the idiots supressed.
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I offer my appolagies for posting the logs like that, I did not know about these rules. I left out names accordingly. And to make muself a little clearer. The comments in the logs, were maid by 4 different induviduals.
Or one person using four different characters? I haven't seen the logs so I'm not sure what all this is about, but it seems pretty clear after reading the responses.
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Listen up to all of you who think that the responsiblilty relies on the parent.
Personally, I wouldn't recommend allowing a child under the age of 10 play PS (Or any MMO... except maybe ToonTown Online) unsupervised. Parents should play _with_ the child. If PS were commercial and published it would probably be given a 'Teen' rating due to the violence. Most MMO's are. This is definately not a game for all ages to play unsupervised :) GM's and devs can only do so much to keep the idiots supressed.
This I understand and I am sure you guys have your hands full with idiots. The Gm's and Dev's do a good job of it as I haven't seen a huge amount of jerks. THANK YOU! *hands out cookies* I also agree with the supervision as I stated in my post above. I think it is only common sense for parents to supervise their children in activities like this.
:) I am merely trying to point out that players also have a responsiblity (Mostly to the sicko who this thread was started about), as do the parents and Gm's and dev's. It doesn't just boil down to Suzy wasn't watching her kid joe, though that could be the start to ending the problem before it even becomes one. Lets face it though, not all parents pay attention or care for that matter or just give their children to much credit. So this is where sometimes it falls on the community as in player Gm and devs.
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I think posting this here was a good idea. this way it lets everyone know this is not acceptable. I know it is in the rules but, i doubt people of this character even bother with reading any rules and guidelines. Bringing issues like this to the public can only make things better in our PS world. IMHO
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The problem is that the problem-players are in-game, not on the forums. People on the forums already know what is not acceptable behavior, so in a way this is preaching to the choir. Even if we are all aware of the problems, we still have to find better and better ways of dealing with them - which is ultimately a GM/dev job.
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hmm i didn't see thoose logs, or red them before they got removed but i think i have an idea what this is about though...
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If only there were a way to literally /kick these types of mug....
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Well the easy way to prevent them from being around is to require a credit/debit card and other details on registration so we have proof of identity. This would a) discourage them from joining if they just want to be a pain. b) mean that a ban really is perminant. There's no way to make another account legally.
But that would be really restrictive and basically suck for the players. It would also make some people think twice about signing up, people who we want to play and would benifit the game and the community. So it's not really a option.
For now, improving our logging a bit more, improving our filtering system, and making sure that there's a GM around with the ability to deal with these situations will work fine I think.
Is chat filtering on by default?
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yes chatfiltering is on by default, but i turned it off to see if someone said the S D or F word
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Asking for credit card numbers from players is a really stupid idea for a variety of reasons. Not only is it dangerous and a pain, but not all the players are old enough to have that kind of thing.
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We're not going to ask for credit card information for just those reasons, Zanzibar.
Generally - it's even harder to deal with someone who says only an inappropriate line or two as opposed to a whole load of it. A GM can't be around to catch 2-3 lines by the time they are said, and if confronted, the guilty party can always make (sometimes surprisingly) convincing denials. We can keep track of how many times people complain about someone, but that is way too easy to abuse and definitely not a good way of deciding on appropriate GM action.
How do other games deal with such things? I've never really researched that.
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Asking for credit card numbers from players is a really stupid idea for a variety of reasons. Not only is it dangerous and a pain, but not all the players are old enough to have that kind of thing.
Exactly. As I said in my last post, it's a pain for players :P
Generally - it's even harder to deal with someone who says only an inappropriate line or two as opposed to a whole load of it. A GM can't be around to catch 2-3 lines by the time they are said, and if confronted, the guilty party can always make (sometimes surprisingly) convincing denials. We can keep track of how many times people complain about someone, but that is way too easy to abuse and definitely not a good way of deciding on appropriate GM action.
Well, the chat filters were designed to catch bad language said in one or two words, and we need to improve them to catch more. If you don't like people saying the stuff then don't have the filter off. Only when people start to try and get around filters to deliberately abuse and to abuse people in other ways which the filters can't catch should GM's get involved.
How do other games deal with such things? I've never really researched that.
Commercial games have your details and a big 24/7 GM team, so trolls either don't bother playing or get banned fast and never return. Free games usually manage like we will have to, with filters and then GMs to catch the repeat abusers.
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In some of the games I play ( I do not know if this is implemented in PS or not, I don't curse) they have a advanced filtering system. The players submit words they see that try to get around the filters. All those words were submitted by th eplayers, checked by mods, and added to the filter. I think it should be considered! like a /reportword command or something. Even though players don't use them now, they might use them later, and this command would be useful. :beta:
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In some of the games I play ( I do not know if this is implemented in PS or not, I don't curse) they have a advanced filtering system. The players submit words they see that try to get around the filters. All those words were submitted by th eplayers, checked by mods, and added to the filter. I think it should be considered! like a /reportword command or something. Even though players don't use them now, they might use them later, and this command would be useful. :beta:
Yes, that's not a bad idea. We can easily save such reports in a text file and add them to a list of filtered words.
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Personally, individual words don't bother me and I hate it when radio or TV censors stuff ( thank god for Showcase :) ). But when one individual starts bothering another in such a manner it becomes not only offensive to the players but offensive to the entire development team.
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the problem with the filter is that it belongs to the client so you can edit the filter as much as you want
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Well it filters incoming chat doesn't it? So what's the problem?
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it filters both outgoing and ingoing chat, but you can turn of one of them or both of them in the options...
the problem is that the command won't work as long as the filter is administrated in the client and not the server
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The idea is that the command would just log words on the server and we'd add them to each release.
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We're not going to ask for credit card information for just those reasons, Zanzibar.
Generally - it's even harder to deal with someone who says only an inappropriate line or two as opposed to a whole load of it. A GM can't be around to catch 2-3 lines by the time they are said, and if confronted, the guilty party can always make (sometimes surprisingly) convincing denials. We can keep track of how many times people complain about someone, but that is way too easy to abuse and definitely not a good way of deciding on appropriate GM action.
How do other games deal with such things? I've never really researched that.
Why not set things so that all dialogue is saved by the server for a number of minutes? Then the /report command can kick in retroactively.
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the updater could be a solution too, or a command /updatefilter (yay for a kernel and a terminal XD)
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Why not set things so that all dialogue is saved by the server for a number of minutes? Then the /report command can kick in retroactively.
The GM team has actually toyed with the idea - but longer than a few minutes, maybe days. A few hours would probably work... But that would mean that players have to know and be aware of all their conversations being logged all the time, and we were worried about the reactions that might bring.
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Why not set things so that all dialogue is saved by the server for a number of minutes? Then the /report command can kick in retroactively.
The GM team has actually toyed with the idea - but longer than a few minutes, maybe days. A few hours would probably work... But that would mean that players have to know and be aware of all their conversations being logged all the time, and we were worried about the reactions that might bring.
Days? Can the server handle that?
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Not sure. It seems excessive now. The issue we argued about was basically the probability of players not wanting to be logged all the time like that, and how to go about reading/accessing those logs without violating privacy, etc. I think we kind of left it at a "No good, not now." Might revisit the idea.
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Not sure. It seems excessive now. The issue we argued about was basically the probability of players not wanting to be logged all the time like that, and how to go about reading/accessing those logs without violating privacy, etc. I think we kind of left it at a "No good, not now." Might revisit the idea.
Well... if there was a more reasonable time limit on it (even 5 minutes), I think that violations of privacy would be far less likely. After 5 minutes, the log would be lost unless the /report function was in place.
I think that the /report function has to be retroactive or else it's somewhat pointless. People who are aware of how the /report function works are in a position to exploit the fact that it only catches players who are repeat offenders... you can get away with it the first time since the /report function won't catch it.
Hope that made sense, I'm feeling a bit incoherent right now.
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Ah, I think I'm getting the point now. So once /report is activated on someone, their before-/report 5-minute logs are put in the more permanent category to look at later, as well as whatever text they may say for the next 5 minutes. Should that work, that would be awesome.
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Ah, I think I'm getting the point now. So once /report is activated on someone, their before-/report 5-minute logs are put in the more permanent category to look at later, as well as whatever text they may say for the next 5 minutes. Should that work, that would be awesome.
If this is possible, it would be great to have that function.
Most offences are done with the first sentence they speak.
When report is started nearly no one is talking anymore.
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If this is possible, it would be great to have that function.
Most offences are done with the first sentence they speak.
When report is started nearly no one is talking anymore.
maybe a little addition to the report command making it able to put a number of how long it should be reported, where a -1 will make you have to manually stop it
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I don't think that should be implemented, manual control of how long the /report function lasts. Consider that if someone accidentally puts -1, and forgets to disble it. You'd have a freaky long log, which I know is very annoying to go through. And takes a long time.
Not to mention that that could be abused, if someone felt like making trouble.
So, I'd have to say that the report function should not be dependant on the users.
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I'd also vote for the +5 minutes before /report, but also to keep it logging till logout of the target.
However, the target should also get an according system message (maybe even in the red "gmwarning" fashion), stating that the chat is being logged and for how long.
Many people will stop their bad actions just by seeing that message, which I think is better than having a silent logging, only to have a reason to punish. I think it is not the best to punish people, in any way and for whatever they do. It is better to make them stop, reconsider and make them change their attitude for the future (which is more unlikely if they don't know that their actions are being recorded and will have direct consequences).
And it is a good thing that players have a means to make other people stop doing whatever they are doing wrong just by putting the spotlight on them, but that only works if the harassing person _knows_ that their actions are being logged and will have consequences.
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This would be a good idea if the five minutes before are logged. Otherwise people will stop and think they are smart and just continue later on. With no proof a GM wont know if that person really was annoying or it was misuse by the reporter.
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Saving chat history for 5 minutes and making /report retroactive makes a lot of sense to me. We should definitely do this if it would make PS safer for kids.
Another thing we could do is make /report auto-ban people if we get too many filtering hits. This way if people drop the f-bomb with each other in acceptable ways, the server will let it slide, but if someone gets /report'ed and continues to curse or abuse people, we could be a bit less dependent on a GM being around.
This type of behavior is not acceptable and the development team will continue to add features as we think of them until we know that kids and others who don't want harassment are safe.
- Vengeance
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Saving chat history for 5 minutes and making /report retroactive makes a lot of sense to me. We should definitely do this if it would make PS safer for kids.
- Vengeance
:) I think it is a wonderful idea as well, vengance. Also it warms my heart ... being a parent and all to read those text words. This is why I am proud to be a PSer. Also because I get to test stuff. :devil: *Zorbels goes back to poking at server*
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Saving chat history for 5 minutes and making /report retroactive makes a lot of sense to me. We should definitely do this if it would make PS safer for kids.
Another thing we could do is make /report auto-ban people if we get too many filtering hits. This way if people drop the f-bomb with each other in acceptable ways, the server will let it slide, but if someone gets /report'ed and continues to curse or abuse people, we could be a bit less dependent on a GM being around.
This type of behavior is not acceptable and the development team will continue to add features as we think of them until we know that kids and others who don't want harassment are safe.
- Vengeance
Maybe both things you mentioned can be implemented.
This way the GM's can see the reports made from players.
And auto-ban can pick the normal swearing.
I notice players who add spaces between the letters of swearwords, to bypass the wordfilter.
So with both things implemented, the swearing players have a pretty big chance of being caught by one of the 2 systems.
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I don't at all like the idea of being logged, especially since you need to log not only /say, but also all other channels, including the seemingly private /tell channels, as you can easily abuse someone via /tell if they don't know how to work the /ignore feature (even though one should never ever trust anything that one doesn't want to be broadcast in the news to any unencrypted internet link, there are things that just don't justify the effort but on which privacy must still not be broken without good reason, like /tell and /group).
However, given the obvious necessety (and the fact that I've experienced similar situations before) a backlog of 5 minutes seems tolerable to me. I've wished for a /backlog feature these times, so if it's implemented in the suggested way (severely time restricted unless /reported) it's fine with me.
There isn't that much of an issue of /report timing out after 5 minutes. If you think it's required, one can just keep entering /report every couple of minutes to keep it running, no? And while I don't generally believe in second chances, the suggestion about the system warning the one being logged about that fact does make sense, especially since it gives the system even more power in case the one still doesn't stop.
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I don't agree with the "you are being loged" warning ideea. If people are warned about being loged they will stop and continue after. If that thing gets implemented though, the perfect system message for that would be "Please have a five minutes brake, go smoke a cigarette and continue swearing after that".
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I don't agree with the "you are being loged" warning ideea. If people are warned about being loged they will stop and continue after.
With the retroactive logging, it would be already too late to stop swearing when you see the message. The GMs would have evidence of the misbehaviour, the way round or the other. But the fat warning would have an immediate psychological effect. This way you get someone to stop doing crap (as he thinks he could avoid the logging) _and_ get evidence of the misbehaviour. If he stops completely, a GM wouldn't have to become active at all. If he stops swearing but still keeps his attitude, a GM would have evidence what happened and could talk some sense into him. If he doesn't stop swearing, the auto-ban kicks in, modifyable by a GM (shortening or adding to the ban).
I'm not convinced about the auto-ban however. An auto-kick might be sufficient to give a GM enough time to see whats going on and set a ban manually.
And if auto-ban, then only for an hour or a day, not more. An automatic system of this sort would need a lot of tuning if the ban is to last longer.