PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: sesmi on July 06, 2006, 11:57:47 pm
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Someone just got mad at me for telling someone where the Bronze doors are. this was IN-GAME, so there should'nt be a problem, but according to ths guy i was OOC. :thumbdown:
Also, I can't get help from anyone in-game because they just tell me it's more fun to find out for myself. I can't find out for mysefl, i just end up giving up. it's not fair. :@#\
I know people shouldn't spoil, but telling me what i'm supposed to think is fun is not right. ???
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Maybe the problem is that you aren't RPing asking for help. (Of course, if you are, then people are just being jerks, or they don't know the answer themselves and just don't want to admit it!)
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Being in-game doesn't always imply being IC :) Though it should. I guess depending on how you gave the directions, the guy's reaction could be either excused or tsked at.
What sort of help are you looking for, in-game?
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Wait...isn't that...like...part of the point of the chat window? To ask other players for help? ???
The n00bs are going to be in an uproar if this happens to them.
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Yes, but you can ask for help in the wrong ways, and the right ways.
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Yes i was doing this IC. I just think this is a bit anti-social. :sweatdrop:
I think people are taking this "no spoilers" and "always IC" thing so far they're going beyond human expectation. :-\
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Yes, but you can ask for help in the wrong ways, and the right ways.
True, but there is also a wrong way and a right way to give an answer. There are some people who won't even help the most desperate of people find their way around. I for one lactually like to guide them to their destination myself. In my opinion, as long is the person isn't rude to me, I'll give them help to my fullest potential, especially if they're new to the game.
Obviously I'd lprefer people to be IC, but a lot of people who are still getting the gist of the game don't have the knack for it yet.
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I think people are taking this "no spoilers" and "always IC" thing so far they're going beyond human expectation.
Well it depends on what PS is going to be... there are well played mmorpgs out there which are much (muchmuch) more focused on rp - and staying always IC - than PS is...
The only real problem in my opinion are the different expectations, if you mix up heavyrp-guys and some nonrpers and many in between, there will be some which are displeased by the behavior of others...
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I think people are taking this "no spoilers" and "always IC" thing so far they're going beyond human expectation.
Well it depends on what PS is going to be... there are well played mmorpgs out there which are much (muchmuch) more focused on rp - and staying always IC - than PS is...
The only real problem in my opinion are the different expectations, if you mix up heavyrp-guys and some nonrpers and many in between, there will be some which are displeased by the behavior of others...
yes, but when someone says using words and/or grammar that didn't exist 500 years ago is OOC then it's too much. thats just dumb. This is a game not shakespeare.
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Well thats not dumb, just another view. In one of the mentioned other mmorpgs everyone had to write at least a A4 page with an interresting character-background-story for your char being acceptet to play... you can imagine that there were never any ooc or even modern language to read ingame... well that was too much for me after a while but that was their spirit... calling it dumb is unfair. For those people it was still a game, but a game following (really) heavy rp rules - and yes it was fun.
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The no spoilers rule is really a bad one. I mean, if the man wants a spoiler give it to him. Maybe to that individual, being told is funner than slaving for hours to find the answer. I mean, when someone asks me for hints, I give it to em.
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The problem isn't really giving specific people spoilers, it's giving out spoilers that anyone can then read. It's all right to give out a spoiler in a PM where only the person you're giving it to can read it. But it's still best to give this information in game, so the character would logically know it.
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The problem isn't really giving specific people spoilers, it's giving out spoilers that anyone can then read. It's all right to give out a spoiler in a PM where only the person you're giving it to can read it. But it's still best to give this information in game, so the character would logically know it.
i said it was in game. and I don't think telling someone where something is spoils anything.
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there is also the once brought up point of... this isnt a full game yet... so the spoiler may be that the end doesnt exist yet... so instead of saying that you must find that on your own <which would obviously be completely pointless...> a simple "doesnt exist yet" would do... except maybe in different terms... but that may not be the point... otherways might be asking h0ow long they have searched yet someone might exaggerate and say hours when it was really only like ten minutes... basically... if you ask for help you deserve it... so this SHOULDNT be a problem... yet people will always be people so there really isnt any point of discussing this seeing as there is no answer...
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The problem isn't really giving specific people spoilers, it's giving out spoilers that anyone can then read. It's all right to give out a spoiler in a PM where only the person you're giving it to can read it. But it's still best to give this information in game, so the character would logically know it.
If someone asks for spoilers, /tell it to them so no one else is spoiled, and the person, who may have well been running around for 4 hours looking for the answer with a fruitless search, is satisfied.
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I hate roleplay nazis, especially when they are nazis about things that have nothing to do with roleplay, like giving someone advice.
I called one of those catpeople a cat and he got all pissy and said "I am a XXXXX (we are roleplaying here)". Now...which is the roleplay failure here...calling someone who looks like a cat a cat, or saying "(we are roleplaying here)"?
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I hate roleplay nazis, especially when they are nazis about things that have nothing to do with roleplay, like giving someone advice.
I called one of those catpeople a cat and he got all pissy and said "I am a XXXXX (we are roleplaying here)". Now...which is the roleplay failure here...calling someone who looks like a cat a cat, or saying "(we are roleplaying here)"?
The thing is, he can't look like a cat because they don't exist in Yliakum. I think people who overreact to that kind of thing is ridiculous, but in this case the dude was correct and he didn't seem to treat you badly for making the mistake. So in the end, get over it.
Just a pointless thing to complain about. I should really learn to stay in the Hydlaa Plaza forum.
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AThousandYoung: Come on at least read a bit of the background, you really should know how the races are called.
From the "about" page:
"First of all PlaneShift is a Role Playing Game. Be sure to read our Roleplay guidelines (http://www.planeshift.it/roleplay.htm) or you will not be able to play this game."
I think this thread is going into two directions, about roleplaying and about helping.
I think you can perfectly roleplay your character and either give advices ingame, or outgame via /tell (if the answer can hardly be given ingame, or even when it does not fit your character).
But I think it should be understanded, that PS has a focus on RP and therefore anybody saying something like "Oh I have this heavy problem with the XY-quest, everything I tell this NPC is wrong" should really think about why he maybe does not get an answer.
Thats how I see this world.
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The one thing I like about this game is that you can't just pull up a webpage full of spoilers. You have to be either apart of a guild who has that sort of information displayed on their website or a friend in game that will share the information you seek. Either way this is what helps us all relate in game. It is a good thing because then you must get to know people with your character, or choose to be a loner .... which if you want realisim in game that sort of character would have a toughter time finding things out about Yliakum. They would have to either over hear information, or find out from NPC's and exploring.
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I see this issue Sesmi has posted about in two ways.
On the newbie's side I see that it is frustrating when first coming into game. You are in a new world, with people you don't know. The NPC's can be very difficult if you don't understand how to talk with them, in some cases they are difficult to talk to at all. When I first started planeshift I didn't understand roleplay. I would approach people and ask about the weapons and where could I find training. This was not done in character, nor should anyone have expected that of me. After all I was new and learning. It can be difficult when you recieve the same answers from the old players over and over. A few Examples:
"Go explore."
"Talk to the NPC's"
"It's better to find out yourself."
"Please use bracket for OOC"
"/tell those messages and stop ruining the roleplay."
When I recieved those answers, I would just be forced to ask more questions. "What in the heck is OOC, and I am trying to explore but what direction do I go to find ojaveda?" This is when the old players would start to get irritated, and thats when I'd hear the comments like "Great we have a newbie here." It was hard to not feel insulted and type out, "well if your not going to help just say so." After my first week in planeshift I started to catch on to roleplay from good strong characters who I came to recognize as regulars in the game and great roleplayers. I tried to talk as they did and found when I asked my questions in a roleplay like manner I had better responses.
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On the old players side I see how they can get frustrated. Imagine yourself in a wonderful roleplay. Your excited and happily questing away with your friends. Your at the most important part and this new person walks up and starts chattering away with questions. Having to stop and explain the game controls and how to get to places can be frustrating too. All you want to do is play the game and have the kick ass roleplay continue. New people don't seem to understand or respect that (But this is where us oldbies have to remember they are new and shouldn't be expected to understand as they have to learn). It gets tiring spending all your game time helping out new players and going over the same questioins and places. Some newbies don't seem to want to take a hint either when examples are in front of their face. I can't say there aren't jerks in the game, but over all most community members are willing to help IF asked nicely. More often than not the please is forgotten.
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I am not really sure if there is a fixer to this situation. The only advice I can give on this is for the old players to have a little patience and remember what it was like to be new. If you don't like that the newbie isn't roleplaying to your standards, then lead by example and try to answer them in a roleplay manner (I know at times this can be difficult and that is when it is best to use group or /tells). This will help them to understand the importance of roleplay in the game. Don't take it ooc and start lecturing them. After all your not their mother. That will only help the newbie develop a negitive opinion of the game.
Newbies should try to be respectful and not expect the other players to answer to their needs. Take a look around you, if the players seem involved in a conversation and they seem occupied you might want to consider talking with someone who doesn't seem as busy. It would be wise to politley say to someone, "can I have a moment of your time?" and then ask if they seem interested in helping. The players don't owe it to you to guide you around and be at your disposal. This is a great community and most people are willing to help, all we ask from newbies is follow the rules of the game and try to keep as much in character as possible. If you don't want to bother then this isn't the game for you.
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"The thing is, he can't look like a cat because they don't exist in Yliakum."
Then he should have said "What's a cat?" not "(we are roleplaying here)".
By the way, if there are no cats, what are "feline features"? Enkidukai are described as having "feline features". Oh, and aren't we all supposed to be from different worlds? Maybe on my home world there were cats. You'd think there'd be more emphasis on the nonexistence of cats when you have Enkidukai in the game with feline features yet we're never supposed to refer to cats.
It ruins an immersive roleplay environment far more when everyone's constantly talking about roleplaying and whether I'm doing it properly or not. If I am going to roleplay, the last thing I want to see every ten seconds is the word "roleplay".
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It is a debatable thing, the point, I tend to find the best way to roleplay it is to assume things change alot eg,
"last time i heard there was a trader, i forget his name. in hydlaa who gave lessons in swords.", if its directions then thats not spoiling anything, thats just giving directions like any character who knew the way would do.
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"The thing is, he can't look like a cat because they don't exist in Yliakum."
Then he should have said "What's a cat?" not "(we are roleplaying here)".
By the way, if there are no cats, what are "feline features"? Enkidukai are described as having "feline features". Oh, and aren't we all supposed to be from different worlds? Maybe on my home world there were cats. You'd think there'd be more emphasis on the nonexistence of cats when you have Enkidukai in the game with feline features yet we're never supposed to refer to cats.
It ruins an immersive roleplay environment far more when everyone's constantly talking about roleplaying and whether I'm doing it properly or not. If I am going to roleplay, the last thing I want to see every ten seconds is the word "roleplay".
Does it describe them in the game as such? I really don't know, I don't play the game. But I would assume that is either in character creation or the site, both of which have no bearing on in-game. There's just no reason for you to take issue for what he said and make a big deal out of it, I could see it if he insulted you for not roleplaying as some people do (which should be dealt with harshly) but if he were to handle it in the way you describe it would only confuse new people. Not everyone is intelligent enough to realize when someone says "What is a cat?" that they are roleplaying. Because the person saying that could easily just be seen as an ass or english isn't their first language and they are geniunely confused.
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If you don't even play the game why are you talking to me here?
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Because he can, and because he raises good points?
That in no way is being a "roleplay nazi."
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Because he can, and because he raises good points?
I think he has made very good points. Most of which I agree with and support.
I called one of those catpeople a cat and he got all pissy and said "I am a XXXXX (we are roleplaying here)". Now...which is the roleplay failure here...calling someone who looks like a cat a cat, or saying "(we are roleplaying here)"?
I think what is the failure is your attutide. Your getting upset over something so small.
Maybe that player didn't answer correctly, but people make mistakes. Maybe he was having a bad day and your comment set him off? Maybe he just finished explaining to someone he wasn't a cat, and then you came along. Maybe he was in the middle of a roleplay and got annoyed with you interupting with your comment?
Another thing is did you talk to this character and try and work it out? I am wondering because bringing it to the forums in the manner you have and from what I read, it seems like all you want to do is vent.
For future reference the "Cat people" are Enkidukai. Males are menki's, and the females are fenki's.
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People tend to misunderstand two different things:
helping in game mechanics and roleplaying. While the first is about helping in all what is ooc in game, the second is doing all what is ic. Telling how to mine is OOC when you are explaining how it was made possible in the game and how you can do it, IC is when you are telling someone to take the rockpick, hit the wall and the mine and check the rubble for any valuable resources. When you tell someone where is Bronze Doors and how to reach it, it is completly IC, although you could start using words like zones or portals what is completly OOC and unnecessary, even invalid, because you can explain the problem in IC way. Completly different thing is if you (your char) want to help, if you don't want to help, it completly ok and anybody claiming you are acting OOC is wrong. Additionaly while you are IC, that person is acting OOC and its that person fault, not yours.
So we have these two difefrent things:
ooc help and ic help. To first you are highly encouraged, but still have a choice. As for the second, you are here completly free as what to do; nobody can ever OOCly order you to do so.
People just don't really know what is roleplaying and its where the problem is.
Furher, someone who yell at you that you are spoiling RP while you are seeking help ICly, is acting completly OOCly and its that person who spoil the RP.
On the Shakespear topic:
Whoever tell me to speak in his style, I will laugh at his face. I'm not english, I don't really know his style, except from the translations to my language. From this i can tell one thing, its theatrical. It don't have much to do with the way how most of the medieval poeple was talking. Maybe 1% of all the poeple the aristocracy, although i'm not sure if this term is fully valid for this age. Furher, i don't see why I should try to speak in Shakespear style while i know Adam Mickiewicz style much better, unfortunately I don't know english good enough to translate this style into english words.
All where it leads is to not use modern words while roleplaying and as far as your skills allow, try to talk in the way how people was 1000~500 years ago, on the whole earth, not only very east Europe.
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'Where are the bronze doors?"
"To get there, go out of the upper part of the city, and then through the forest, turn left at the intersection and then follow the road"
All of that is perfectly acceptable in-character, and isn't, in any way, a spoiler. Have you ever asked for directions in real life? There is maybe more sensitive information like "where is the lost child for this quest?" that needs to be handled more carefully but even then, "Have you seen a child who looks lost recently?" is still totally in character.
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All of that is perfectly acceptable in-character, and isn't, in any way, a spoiler. Have you ever asked for directions in real life? There is maybe more sensitive information like "where is the lost child for this quest?" that needs to be handled more carefully but even then, "Have you seen a child who looks lost recently?" is still totally in character.
And if that still bugs people, they can always give the wrong advice...roleplaying, of course.
If you don't even play the game why are you talking to me here?
You're not even going to defend yourself? Oh. Well...I'm disappointed. :(
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Oh. Well...I'm disappointed.
Come on people, don't let the troll starve!! :o
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"The thing is, he can't look like a cat because they don't exist in Yliakum."
Then he should have said "What's a cat?" not "(we are roleplaying here)".
By the way, if there are no cats, what are "feline features"? Enkidukai are described as having "feline features". Oh, and aren't we all supposed to be from different worlds? Maybe on my home world there were cats. You'd think there'd be more emphasis on the nonexistence of cats when you have Enkidukai in the game with feline features yet we're never supposed to refer to cats.
It ruins an immersive roleplay environment far more when everyone's constantly talking about roleplaying and whether I'm doing it properly or not. If I am going to roleplay, the last thing I want to see every ten seconds is the word "roleplay".
because then everyone could implent little rules that where they lived they drove around cars and had special telepatic powers allowing them to kill a person with their mind and know everything about them before asking or finding out through conversations or actions being with this person, they could also say that where they came from they said onoez omgzor this sucks, omfg this sucks big dude, destroying the medieval setting by using nowaday words and internetslang.
Although i think you will learn all this in time :) and will be willing to help if a question is asked... have fun in game and good luck rp'ing
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Hey guys, keep cool :)
Wikipedia:
"A spoiler is a summary or description of a narrative (or part of a narrative) that relates plot elements not revealed early in the narrative itself. Moreover, because enjoyment of a narrative sometimes depends upon the dramatic tension and suspense which undergird it, this early revelation of plot elements can "spoil" the enjoyment that some consumers of the narrative would otherwise have experienced.
In recent years, spoilers have mostly appeared on specialist Internet sites and in newsgroup postings. Usually the spoiling information is preceded by a warning, or the spoiler has to be highlighted before it can be visibly read on the Web page. But in recent years these warnings have been omitted, and some unwitting readers have had films, books, and other works they were looking forward to experiencing spoiled."
Problems in that field:
1. People who don't want to see the spoiler are more or less forced (maybe even by accident) to see it
2. It's too easy to get spoilers (if wanted), so people give up on trying on a quest or related too easily, not experiencing the satisfaction resulting from putting effort into something
3. People definitely could become frustrated on a detail (often enough a bug or inconsistency) so it wouldn't be their fault of not having put enough effort into it, but circumstances could have prevented them from the deserved success
I think this is something we GMs have to discuss in a meeting.. whether and how to give out spoilers on petitioned questions regarding quests and other content.
For now there's no way other than joining a guild or asking IC for directions.
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I think this is something we GMs have to discuss in a meeting.. whether and how to give out spoilers on petitioned questions regarding quests and other content.
Talad said no spoilers :} It's not up to GMs.
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One thing to keep in mind when talking about quest-related spoilers is something someone in another topic observed, which is that really, if you're having trouble finding the exact phrase needed to complete a quest, IC the quest is actually done (because a real person would understand something besides that exact phrase), it's just not done OOC.
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Talad said no spoilers :} It's not up to GMs.
Doesn't mean he never will change his mind about it. He's a reasonable guy who is convinceable with good arguments. :sorcerer:
/me likes the :sorcerer: smiley somehow
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Doesn't mean he never will change his mind about it. He's a reasonable guy who is convinceable with good arguments. :sorcerer:
I'm pretty sure he'll never change his mind about this.
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'Where are the bronze doors?"
"To get there, go out of the upper part of the city, and then through the forest, turn left at the intersection and then follow the road"
All of that is perfectly acceptable in-character, and isn't, in any way, a spoiler. Have you ever asked for directions in real life? There is maybe more sensitive information like "where is the lost child for this quest?" that needs to be handled more carefully but even then, "Have you seen a child who looks lost recently?" is still totally in character.
As dfryer pointed out you can stay in character and still give out information. This is also a good way to promote roleplay, and a good example if you can keep answering the person who is speaking to you in character even though they might be ooc. I don't think there is any need for a website full of here's where you can go to get this quest and that, or how to aquire these weapons and where. This to me will only hurts roleplay. People could then just pull up the information on the net and not have to communicate in the game.
If people need spoilers so bad then they should play another game, because this one is different. Not to mention spoilers are just a persons way of being lazy with their brian. I think it is great that people are being forced to find out on their own or through guilds and friends for the information they need. If your stressed because you can't find something and no one seems to be able to help ...then GREAT! That is realisim babe and that is what is trying to be accomplished with this game is it not?
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People need to learn how to think logically and use common sense... And they should also learn that in life, there are no spoilers. If you lose a sock, you can't just go out on the net and look for spoilers on where it is.
Also, not everything is life is free, sometimes (if not all the time) you must work to earn stuff. Your lunch won't be served on a silver platter... Oh wait, it could...
Well unless you are rich, someone won't offer you a ferari for free.
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Someone just got mad at me for telling someone where the Bronze doors are. this was IN-GAME, so there should'nt be a problem, but according to ths guy i was OOC. :thumbdown:
Also, I can't get help from anyone in-game because they just tell me it's more fun to find out for myself. I can't find out for mysefl, i just end up giving up. it's not fair. :@#\
I know people shouldn't spoil, but telling me what i'm supposed to think is fun is not right. ???
Based on what you said, I don't see what you did wrong in terms of RP or spoilers. Telling someone where the Bronze Doors are is like telling someone where the temple is or how to get out of town. It's just simple directions and it's entirely acceptable within the bindings of roleplay, depending on your character that is.
The only way it could be OOC is if you used words like "computer" or "mouselook", or if your character is usually extremely unhelpful to others.
I hate roleplay nazis, especially when they are nazis about things that have nothing to do with roleplay, like giving someone advice.
I called one of those catpeople a cat and he got all pissy and said "I am a XXXXX (we are roleplaying here)". Now...which is the roleplay failure here...calling someone who looks like a cat a cat, or saying "(we are roleplaying here)"?
Excuse me if I come across as grumpy in this post. One of my pig destroyer CDs is missing, and I was hoping to listen to it.
Planeshift is a game meant for roleplay nazis, or elitist roleplayers. Combat and levelling is incidental to the true substance of the game, and that true substance is social in nature. The character zorbels described however - the ones who would go out of character to flame someone who was asking for help - those are not roleplay nazis. They're just idiots who want to look big by flaming someone who's asking an innocent question.
Shakespeare: Shakespeare spoke middle-english, not old english or medieval english. Middle-english is far closer to modern english than old english. Old english is almost a different language, I for one do not understand it unless I have a dictionary handy.
because then everyone could implent little rules that where they lived they drove around cars and had special telepatic powers allowing them to kill a person with their mind and know everything about them before asking or finding out through conversations or actions being with this person, they could also say that where they came from they said onoez omgzor this sucks, omfg this sucks big dude, destroying the medieval setting by using nowaday words and internetslang.
Although i think you will learn all this in time :) and will be willing to help if a question is asked... have fun in game and good luck rp'ing
Or maybe you could even do something like make a bottomless pit appear under the feet of someone you dislike! Oh wait, weren't you doing that in game a while back?
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I don't think a full zone spawned from nowhere can be viewed as RP.
Asking its direction by people assumed to be here since their birth is just a fix. The question should be rolepayed, but it's still OOC.
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People who roleplay that they've been here their whole lives shouldn't roleplay "asking for directions" :P They either need to explore on their own, or just ask OOCly. Otherwise you're breaking your character.
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In counter point, there can be those that have lived in the owrld their whole lives, yet say grew up never really leaving their home city for one reason or another and then just recently have decided to explore the world around them so to say. Then they would still be asking IC. :whistling:
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Here is one of the biggest probelms. People mixing the game mechanic's with roleplay. This is where your supposed to use your imagination and ignore that Part of a new world just popped up. It is gonna take sometime to get used to the areas, and I am sure soon enough the players will be nick naming certain spots. I don't bring the changes OOC into the chat box, and if I do have to address it in character the I say that the gods have blessed us for some unknown reason, with alot of new lands. Generally though I like to ignore it because technically to our characters the land was always there. The planeshift team just doesn't have it ready in real life to impliment it. So instead of being a pain in the butt and agruing about the mechanic's not fitting into the roleplay, I make it easier on myself and the rest of the community by not trying to explain every game mechanic and change with in the game in character.
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because then everyone could implent little rules that where they lived they drove around cars and had special telepatic powers allowing them to kill a person with their mind and know everything about them before asking or finding out through conversations or actions being with this person, they could also say that where they came from they said onoez omgzor this sucks, omfg this sucks big dude, destroying the medieval setting by using nowaday words and internetslang.
Although i think you will learn all this in time :) and will be willing to help if a question is asked... have fun in game and good luck rp'ing
Or maybe you could even do something like make a bottomless pit appear under the feet of someone you dislike! Oh wait, weren't you doing that in game a while back?
no i did it on a house which looked annoyingly at me, the kada-el in fact
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Neko addressed that point. I was talking about 'explorers', not hermits :P
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People need to learn how to think logically and use common sense... And they should also learn that in life, there are no spoilers. If you lose a sock, you can't just go out on the net and look for spoilers on where it is.
Also, not everything is life is free, sometimes (if not all the time) you must work to earn stuff. Your lunch won't be served on a silver platter... Oh wait, it could...
Well unless you are rich, someone won't offer you a ferari for free.
However most things people are asking for help with aren't things like that. They don't want free stuff (OK, some of them do, but there are people who are willing to give things to new players) or to find their socks. Most of the time, when people ask for help it's because of limitations inherent in the game, for example how difficult it is for new players to find things, or the infamous quest problems. These are things that, if PS were complete and ran exactly the same way as the real world, you wouldn't HAVE to work to get. For example, while in medieval times you couldn't just go online to MapQuest and get a map of how to get somewhere, there would definitely be maps of Yliakum in existence that you could get... and obviously some characters would have these maps and be able to show other characters where things are.
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People need to learn how to think logically and use common sense... And they should also learn that in life, there are no spoilers. If you lose a sock, you can't just go out on the net and look for spoilers on where it is.
Also, not everything is life is free, sometimes (if not all the time) you must work to earn stuff. Your lunch won't be served on a silver platter... Oh wait, it could...
Well unless you are rich, someone won't offer you a ferari for free.
I don't think you understand what i'm talking about.
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Oi, what a headache. Alright, well now that I'm back, I'm going to weigh in on this.
Spoilers... hrmm, what's a spoiler? A quest solution. That's a spoiler. Can't think of anything else. In short, don't tell people the answers to quests. As far as in-character answers to quests, I'd be careful. To use an earlier example, "Have you seen a lost child recently?" "Yea sure... there was one down on the plaza and one in Ojaveda and one out on the road to the Magic shop..." Just because your character completed the quest once does not mean your character knows who the heck this other person is asking about. Unless the asker is very specific and unless your character knows that whatever the person is looking for will be in a certain place (people actually move around in real life, believe it or not), he/she shouldn't provide an answer. To mean, this means 99% of the time, in-character quest-answers should not be given. :thumbdown:
Out-of-character: In general, if someone is stuck on a quest, they really shouldn't be given help; they need to figure it out on their own (A. to keep the game interesting, and B. because Talad said so :) ). HOWEVER, the conversation system really sucks now... so if someone is stuck and asks, "How do I get this person to take item X so I can complete the quest?" I have no problem with the specific phrase being provided as long as the person knows the gist of what needs to be said. This still needs to be dealt with in out-of-character channels, though. Hopefully, the conversation system will be improved soon and this exception will become irrelevant, but until then, to prevent frustration, these sorts of answers are probably fine.
If you're confused, as a general rule of thumb: don't help people with quests. :thumbdown:
Moving on from quests... Game mechanics. There are two categories of game mechanics: the basics and the details. By all means, please impart the basics (moving around, using the various graphical interfaces, etc) to all those who ask (in out-of-character channels, i.e. /tell). Helping newbies with the basics makes their entry into the world a lot smoother and saves everyone headaches down the road. Imparting etiquette and basic information on roleplay also makes things easier. :thumbup:
Then there're the details: "How much strength do I need to wield weapon X?" No one should know the answer to that question (or care), and you should definitely not say the exact number. Your character has no way of knowing just how much muscle it will take to wield said sword: you can't really quantify that. You can say something like, "Well, you need to be pretty strong," but specific numbers? No, no, and no. No one should be discussing any of the specific gameplay mechanics in terms of formulas and numbers. It works against roleplay and puts the emphasis of the game on leveling and stats. "But I want to know if I'll be able to wield sword X before I spend 500,000 tria on it!" Would your character have any way of knowing this beforehand? Not without practicing with the weapon. Maybe your guild has a weapon you can try out, but I doubt most merchants would let you test out a deadly weapon (anyone ever asked if they could try out a gun before buying?). Trying to mess with the stats to produce the most powerful character you can is called munchkinning. Here's the wiki blurb if you're interested:
"A Munchkin is a player who plays a normally cooperative game (usually a role-playing game) to amass as much power and as many kills as possible, whatever the costs to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, logic, or the other players' fun. The term is also frequently used in reference to powergamers and to immature players in general...
Munchkins are infamous for twisting rules and min/maxing. This often leads to exceptionally unrealistic or unusual characters.
Munchkins are often accused of roll-playing, a pun on 'role' that notes how munchkins are often more concerned with the numbers and die rolls than with the roles that they play.
A more neutral use of the term is in reference to novice players, who, not knowing yet how to roleplay, typically obsess about the statistical "power" of their characters rather than developing their characters' personalities."
Munchkins are not wanted in Planeshift. If you want to munchkin, play World of Warcraft. I won't say it can't be fun, but Planeshift is not that kind of game. :thumbdown:
This has all been pretty negative thus far: "don't do this and don't do that." Well, here's what you can do...
Provide in-character information. This ranges from directions to places (NOTE: directions that your character knows. If you have two characters and the first one has been to the bronze doors while the second one hasn't, the second one should not be directing people on how to get to the bronze doors) to information on how to make money ("Well, you can kill rats and sell their hides to fellow X. I made a fair bit myself this way, back when I was a poor fellow new to the city," etc etc (depending on backstory)). The key thing to remember in everything is: "What does my character know and what would he be willing to share?" You may play a pompous merchant who has no time for foolish paupers (poor people). In that case, a "Get away you filthy wretch," (or something to that effect) would be in order. Always, who is my character? What would he/she do? If your character knows and would help, help. If not, don't. :thumbup:
Sorry that this has gotten so long, but I wanted to be as complete as possible. This is just my take on things and how I personally deal with the issues presented.
Oh, one final note on roleplay: do not try to make OOC things into roleplay; it causes headaches. I'm referring specifically to the sort of thing epitomized by, "What's a cat?" It's not helpful. Instead, in a /tell, very politely explain that there are not cats in Planeshift and that you are an enkidukai. This policy is ditto for additions/changes/bugs. The fact that you fell through a hole in the world and died doesn't need to be played as, "a wrathful god created a rip in the fabric of space-time and sucked you up." This sort of thing changes the environment of the world. That god takes on a slightly evil shade (I mean, what nice god randomly sucks poor innocent people down rips in the fabric of space-time?). If you really need a roleplay justification for bugs, crashes, etc, try some real-life basics that we don't really discuss in PS on a normal basis, such as: "Had to use the bathroom." "I was thirsty, so I got a drink." "I forgot item X at shop Y/my house." There are plenty of mundane reasons you can use. Don't make every bug into a magical event. And don't thank the gods for the bronze doors (i.e. new areas, new features). Just go on as if they'd always been there.
Anyway, my piece is done (for real this time)... now I think I'll go to sleep. :)
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How about RPing around wipes? The strategies Cha0s gave don't work for that.
-You can't say things were always that way, unless you want to also wipe large portions of your character's history. The reason for this is simple: a lot of RPing depends on your items and skills. For example, say that as part of an RP you gave someone a specific sword. Then there was a wipe that eliminated all items. If you RPed that things were always that way, that RP must have never happened because neither one of you has the sword. Similarly, removing items and skills would either drastically change or eliminate from your character's history all winning fights with creatures bigger than rats (because if you never had your weapons or skills they would have killed you!), many trips to the tavern (you had no mugs)... you get the idea.
-You can't come up with a mundane explanation for them. It's not like you could just say "Oops, I tripped over a rock and dropped all my items and money! Oh, and my armor fell off! And I forgot all I ever learned about fighting and crafting!"
So I think wipes are the only time when you have to use an overblown deus ex machina to explain things. I like to say that Laanx punished the greedy citizens of Yliakum by destroying items/money/experience. It's more believable in that situation (in which it happens to everyone) then it is in a situation like falling off the world... and Laanx probably does get a little bit malevolent sometimes! (It's also pretty convenient that it's close to the reason wipes actually happen... people are getting too greedy by exploiting bugs!)
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I like to say that Laanx punished the greedy citizens of Yliakum by destroying items/money/experience. It's more believable in that situation (in which it happens to everyone) then it is in a situation like falling off the world... and Laanx probably does get a little bit malevolent sometimes!
This is exactly the way I intend on RPing the next wipe :)
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Actually, if you have a genuine need to catch severe abusers, it should be pretty easy to index skill levels versus character time logged, without affecting the rest of the players.
Unless it is done to correct a problem that seriously damages play, a wipe is a cure that is worse than the disease.
~Verrliit~
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Unless it is done to correct a problem that seriously damages play, a wipe is a cure that is worse than the disease.
Even if the problem doesn't seriously damage play, it exists and a wipe fixes it. If wiping everything is the quickest way to fix it, then great, we wipe. Obviously it's better if we don't wipe too often, because it means we'll have a wider range of players at different abilities/stages to test for us, there's no other reason as far as I see it. Until we hit version ~0.6 or so (where we'll have what I might count as a game, not a tech-demo), I really couldn't care less if people leave because of wipes. New people always come to replace them. Sometimes we're better off with that happening ;) If people stay through them, then I'm impressed at their dedication.
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I just locked a thread about the wipe :) Why people fail to get the point is beyond me.
There are a few players here who think they already own the world. They think that they own the GMs and the developers too. I'll let you in on a little secret - you don't. The team doesn't just do this for you, we do it for ourselves too. This is our hobby. You share it. If it is easier for us to wipe all characters, we will wipe all characters. You are invited to the dev sandbox, so please play accordingly. If you expect a game at version 0.3 to have no wipes at all, you need to read about a few more games in development.
So enough complaining about wipes "inconveniencing" all your "hard work," because all the hours you put into the game is absolutely nothing compared to what the dev team does.
I mean it :)
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Would your character have any way of knowing this beforehand? Not without practicing with the weapon. Maybe your guild has a weapon you can try out, but I doubt most merchants would let you test out a deadly weapon (anyone ever asked if they could try out a gun before buying?)
Actually yes. In all shops I know you can take the weapon in your hand and check out the abilities.. and if you aren't to test out the damage done there, you always can check out internet forums and other tests, where you can get the info needed.
As long as you can't test out an item ingame without being able to simply run away with it, and without GMs to help you getting back the item, it's nonsense to ask people to not give stats as reference.
How about RPing around wipes? The strategies Cha0s gave don't work for that.
As in many threads already mentioned, you can simply ignore a wipe as RPer. And NO, for RP it is not essential to actually have the items or stats and skills.
This is exactly the way I intend on RPing the next wipe
Feel free to do so, but don't expect other people to adapt to this way of RP.
because all the hours you put into the game is absolutely nothing compared to what the dev team does.
/me does the devils advocate..
Don't exaggarate ;) I want to see the dev who was working 2000 hours on PS since january this year :) (in comparison to players who are ingame for that time)
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Players play games :) Developers work. They are not comparable.
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Isn't PS being made for us?
No.
Isn't making this place for us to play in, the reason you are here?
No.
Collectively, we are putting hundreds and perhaps thousands of hours into PS, every day.
Doesn't that deserve more respect than this?
No.
We are not making a custom game to your liking. We are making the game we want to, and you are welcome to give input which we will listen to, but we are not obligated to use.
Ok, I'm locking this... partially to save Karyuu the trouble, and partially because this thread is too long and I'm too lazy to keep up with it if it continues to grow. ;)
I will end on this note: You're all thinking about this waaaaay too much.
Play the damn game. If you're in the game and vaguely in character there is no such thing as a spoiler. I don't care if it's not even great IC; if you someone walks up to you and asks "Hey, there's this guy that wants a sack. You know where I can get one?" feel free to reply "Yeah, there's a guy that sells them in the plaza." This is a multiplayer game, so please feel free to work together. If your character would rather tell the guy to go eat himself, that's fine too. Don't feel that we're going to go around censoring people playing in-game. So long as you're actually playing (meaning IC) we don't care. We don't want people posting spoilers all over the Internet, but that's as far as we care to go. Do people actually think we're going to have invisible GMs everywhere spying on people and telling them how to play? We want to stop people from having the game done for them by someone else; just play the game.
About wipes: Wipes annoy people who like to have played the game, rather than like to actually play it. You don't need a trophy, and I don't care at all that it'll piss you off. We will wipe, and as I already said, the recent release started the loose timetable for the next one. (no, we haven't the slightest clue when it'll be) Wipes can't destroy a character, and even if they did, who cares? Just make another one. Just play the damn game.
About time: Most of you would all shut up quickly if you really knew how much time has been spent developing PlaneShift. The rest of you, the ones with thousands of hours of gameplay time for a freakin' unfinished pre-alpha test game... there's nothing we can say to you. Stop playing the damn game. Go read a book or at far least go watch TV or something. Something does not become yours by loitering around it for a long time.
Again, stop overthinking all this.
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I know the thread has been locked but I want to chime in and say I agree wholeheartedly with DaveG's last post and with Cha0s' advice about spoilers. Spoilers only apply to quest solutions.
The other thing I wanted to respond to was this:Planeshift is a game meant for roleplay nazis, or elitist roleplayers. Combat and levelling is incidental to the true substance of the game...
This is 100% false. From the beginning we wanted to accommodate RPers in a way that we hadn't seen other games do, and I think we are more sympathetic to their concerns and needs than most games are. The RPers in the last 12 months or so seem to have interpreted that just as Zanz said in the quote, which is that we support them to the exclusion of all others. This is NOT the case. People not interested in RP are fully welcome to play the game as they see fit. The idea is to make a game that supports multiple styles of gameplay, not to make a game which gives petty Napoleons the incentive and right to be offended at the slightest thing and limit others' behaviors.
- Vengeance
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As you see the team is made of different people, and we also have sometimes different opinions, but I think the base guidelines are similar.
I just want to make few points clear, even if much of what have been said in this thread ended up with decent conclusions. Most of Chaos post was correct, mainly the part where you have to think with your character knowledge before acting in game. Think to what your char knows and how he will react to that particular question. If someone asks about "computer" tell him you don't know what is it. In general RPer should ignore non RPers. But let's try to make this a bit more consistent:
- "Speaking of IC vs. OOC" is obvisouly an OOC discussion, so players should NOT do that in game. The effort to keep things IC is made by the GMs with private chat, not by players in open chat. My general hint is if a player is acting OOC and you are an RPer, just ignore him. I think most of the issues arise from new players that have not yet grasped the main mechanics and controls of the game, so they just ask to everyone. This will be improved in the future with dedicated areas for newbies, or other filters so expert players will not hear newbies questions. That's becoming an issue and it's something we will take care of. For now just try to stay RP, but DO NOT react badly to players that are not RPing, this is a duty of GMs. For your char OOC people are just weird persons speaking of crazy things, leave them alone.
- The answers given above by DaveG are his personal view of the game development, not the ones of PS Team, in particular the answer if the game is made for the players or not. In my opinion the game is made as we think it will look great, but with many hints and tiips from the players. We often look at the forums and wishlist to understand what people want. We have some basic guidelines that will not change whatever players say (like the Player Killing argument), but in general we are open to discussions, like we are inside the team. I do not like the position of "we do what we want" and is not something we apply in our development. One of the powers of having a live server while developing is to learn from it, and see what players find good or not, what's too complex to use or too easy, etc... I do not like also the position of "stop discussing this argument" because as far as people keep polite and express their point of view there is nothing bad. RP vs PL is a very old topic and surely will remain in the future (if RP survives! :)).
- About roleplay, don't have roleplay take over your char. Your char is not an actor, you are. This means that your char can do whatever is allowed in the Yliakum society. (I know it's not easy to guess :) but for that refer to modern fantasy literature and you can't be much wrong). Speaking in shakespeare style is obviously not needed, and mainly depends on the social status and personality of your char. Just try to enrich the Yliakum world by having your character be part of it, like if he lived many years in those lands. We want to give "guidelines" to people on how to roleplay better and how to have the world look more real and more immersive. We don't want an "RP or be banned" approach. I think that the player base will always have different levels of RPing, we cannot expect everyone to be great roleplayers, so we have to live with it if a minimum threshold is guaranteed. Vengeance post highlights the ability of PS to accomodate all players, I think that's possible in the sense of having different levels of RP, from very basic (not using PS as a 3d chat for computer related topics) up to real roleplay.
- About spoilers. Roleplay has nothing to do with spoilers and I ask to please keep those separate. I say this because given the current status of the game, there can be cases in which a hint from a player to another is a good thing. In general keep Chaos guidelines to avoid giving too many hints.
I would like you to keep in mind that a player has no power on another player, so even if you think he is doing something bad (expecially on RPing) you should not become arrogant with him, saying he is doing wrong. Live your RP life, and ignore him, the GMs will take care of things that "break realism". Ignore all aspects that are not making the PS world more immersive, don't focus nor go against those, or you will have less fun.
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I guess I just wasn't thinking enough when I did my last post concerning RPing of wipes, because it is possible to come up with a mundane explanation. Here is one:
"I was on the road to (insert current town here) when I ran into a thief who took my bag of supplies. I tried to fight him off but he was too strong, and he took my weapons too and ran off. I made it back to town where I ran into a poor guy/girl who had also run into this thief. He/she had been training ever since in order to defeat him, and all he/she needed was some armor, so I gave mine to him/her. Because I lost all my food I had to concentrate on surviving rather than doing the things I used to do, so my fighting and crafting skills got rather rusty...
Later I discovered that this thief was actually the greatest thief who ever lived, and he had stolen everything from practically everyone in Yliakum!"
See, that covers everything and you don't have to resort to the supernatural. You can take out parts of the explanation for partial wipes.
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"Later I discovered that this thief was actually the greatest thief who ever lived, and he had stolen everything from practically everyone in Yliakum!"
hmm yeah clear example of how to RP a wipe lol
I would rather just roleplay like my skills haven't changed at all. Thats a lot more realistic then coming up with a reason like that that in my opinion is very unrealistic. Specially seeing gladiators and rogues are stil just as strong as before.
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My suggestion would tick a lot of people off, but I think after the last wipe we should all...restart. Forget previous roleplays and start over fresh.
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I tend to think more pragmatically about this stuff. I think that Vengence's comments are good, though aggressive. It's an injustice to say that all of the "elitist RPers" are "Petty Napoleons". Some of them might fit that description, but not all of them.
The other thing is though that there's a lot of diversity in this community with regards to how people interpret what it means to roleplay. Some of them RP in a style which is basically the acting out of a script. Others (like Suno) run on long-lasting constantly evolving plots and stories, while others like myself just RP a character and react based on the situation they're in. So it's not a "PLers versus RPers" thing, since even the RPers don't all agree with eachother on how people 'should' conduct themselves.
The thing is, if we could learn how to all get along, it wouldn't at all be a problem. I see diversity as a good thing, provided it's accompanied by acceptance.
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Ok. Now I'm somehow impressed :woot:
Most of Chaos post was correct, mainly the part where you have to think with your character knowledge before acting in game
A clear definition of what an advisor may give out and what a spoiler is at all at last >o)
One of the powers of having a live server while developing is to learn from it, and see what players find good or not, what's too complex to use or too easy, etc... I do not like also the position of "stop discussing this argument" because as far as people keep polite and express their point of view there is nothing bad. RP vs PL is a very old topic and surely will remain in the future (if RP survives! Smiley).
Hey! "IF"?! :o
RP ftw! \\o//
But seriously, I love to hear those words in the public. And I also love to hear from our high-officials that diversity is a goal of PS and not just a vision of mine ^^
For now just try to stay RP, but DO NOT react badly to players that are not RPing, this is a duty of GMs.
I think I safely can say "we do what we can".
Vengeance post highlights the ability of PS to accomodate all players, I think that's possible in the sense of having different levels of RP, from very basic (not using PS as a 3d chat for computer related topics) up to real roleplay.
And for the "People not interested in RP" at all but still being "fully welcome to play the game".. what about a non-RP server in the (far) future?
We don't want an "RP or be banned" approach. I think that the player base will always have different levels of RPing, we cannot expect everyone to be great roleplayers, so we have to live with it if a minimum threshold is guaranteed.
Don't bap me for having my boss's opinion, but I said this already before I became GM, and still fully agree.
I tend to think more pragmatically about this stuff. I think that Vengence's comments are good, though aggressive. It's an injustice to say that all of the "elitist RPers" are "Petty Napoleons". Some of them might fit that description, but not all of them.
The thing is, if we could learn how to all get along, it wouldn't at all be a problem. I see diversity as a good thing, provided it's accompanied by acceptance.
Zanzibar, are you ill? You are actually getting peaceful.. and .. soft??
Honestly, I fully agree with Zanzibar on this.. I can't believe it. (and no, that's not irony)
I can't say more than emphasizing the importance of multilateral acceptance of opinions and in this case, ways how to RP.
Zanzibar, please don't stop "tending to think more pragmatically about this stuff" :flowers:
But that doesn't mean that I won't throw stuff at weird RP systems like the D&D-based RP with use of dice or game-mechanic based duells for RP (at least now) :devil:
My suggestion would tick a lot of people off, but I think after the last wipe we should all...restart. Forget previous roleplays and start over fresh.
/me throws the same sentance again Feel free to do so, but don't expect other people to adapt to this way of RP.
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Petty off-topic arguments removed. Anything further off-topic will follow.
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And for the "People not interested in RP" at all but still being "fully welcome to play the game"..
what about a non-RP server in the (far) future?
I'm currently reading forum, its my first time in PS (ok, i played for a moment in january)
and I just realized it will be even more hard-core experience than i expected.
I played Arkadia (biggest polish mud) for somewhat like 2 years and i decided to move to graphical mmorpgs for one reason:
"open leather bag
put all gold coins in the bag
close leather bag"
etc etc etc..... lol, people still are amazed when they see me typing SO FAST... now you know the reason.
an idea of non-rp server of PS is great because of two reasons:
first - english is not my first language, so i will have to play rather silent character, unless i want to spent more time reading dictionary than actually playing. And for me PS is quite a unique for many reasons, so i would like not to get-banned-by not being RP enough.
and sometimes I really need to ask someone for something, like "where can I train strength?" etc.
second reason is this. you played muds, so you know "smile happily" "scream loudly" "smile gently" etc etc, in muds you can express feelings in many ways, limited to what was implemented by dev team.
in graphical mmorpg how can you smile happily or gently? in PS in particular, how do you want to play your char with that ugly faces? :)
easy way to "smile" are (; (: [: (:< , but emoticons can ruin RP completely >.<', yet they remain easy way to express emotions ^^
kk enough of this spamming :) gotta kill some rats and earn Tria ;)
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I believe a non-RP server will be implemented at some point in the future, when there are too many players to fit on one. It makes too much sense to separate the cliques.
Don't hold your breath though.
- Vengeance
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I believe a non-RP server will be implemented at some point in the future, when there are too many players to fit on one. It makes too much sense to separate the cliques.
Don't hold your breath though.
- Vengeance
Why have cliques at all though?
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jesus zanzibar .... the simple fact that this thread exists is evidence of clique's, try to wake up
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I believe a non-RP server will be implemented at some point in the future, when there are too many players to fit on one. It makes too much sense to separate the cliques.
Are you serious???
For years everyone has been saying there will always be ONE world/server to play on (although supported by several machines) and there won't be separate RP/non-RP servers because that would SPLIT UP the community. Have plans quietly changed?
I don't like this plan at all.
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Are you serious???
For years everyone has been saying there will always be ONE world/server to play on (although supported by several machines) and there won't be separate RP/non-RP servers because that would SPLIT UP the community. Have plans quietly changed?
I don't like this plan at all.
I think that devs were discussing this:
I think I will push the idea of \"Casual\" and \"RP\" servers at Talad now. It is clearly needed, as no happy medium will ever be met with extremists battling on both sides like this.
Results of that "pushing" are unknown though (it seems to me that the try was a failure).
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Are you serious???
For years everyone has been saying there will always be ONE world/server to play on (although supported by several machines) and there won't be separate RP/non-RP servers because that would SPLIT UP the community. Have plans quietly changed?
I don't like this plan at all.
wrong..... new servers will be added when the current one gets filled up. why not take the oppertunity to split up those who dont want to be together
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Results of that "pushing" are unknown though (it seems to me that the try was a failure).
I hope it failed. The only reason Moogie suggested that to Talad was because she and other MB players were afraid all those new players would invade their nice little 3D chatbox which PS was at that moment. There are some people in-game who are extreme powerlevellers, and you have extreme roleplayers, but the large majority of the players live happily together, RP or "casual". There are people who take their was of playing to the extreme and detest people who play differently, but there is no reason at all to create separate servers for those groups. Making RP and non-RP servers would only tear up the community!
wrong..... new servers will be added when the current one gets filled up. why not take the oppertunity to split up those who dont want to be together
Why don't you read properly next time? I clearly stated that there will be ONE realm/world which will be run my multiple machines/servers, this way we can have one world and you won't have the trouble of full servers. That has always been the intended plan, untill now apparently.
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I hope it failed. The only reason Moogie suggested that to Talad was because she and other MB players were afraid all those new players would invade their nice little 3D chatbox which PS was at that moment.
and a very nice little 3D chatbox it was to :-X
Why don't you read properly next time? I clearly stated that there will be ONE realm/world which will be run my multiple machines/servers, this way we can have one world and you won't have the trouble of full servers. That has always been the intended plan, untill now apparently.
how do you know? i am going by what i have read on the various websites, and what certain devs have recently stated :P
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and a very nice little 3D chatbox it was to
It was nice yes, but still you couldn't do anything but chat and make crystal art.
how do you know? i am going by what i have read on the various websites, and what certain devs have recently stated Tongue
You read the wrong statements, misinterpreted?
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I don't think Talad will be happy to have different worlds for RPers and PLers.. maybe different servers for one world, but not seperated worlds.
A seperated world would require a more complex GM team, more complex organisation overall, result in an even more split community and wouldn't work towards a heterogenous but merged community like Talad's wish stated in his post. I think the direction is pretty clear there.
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Why don't you read properly next time? I clearly stated that there will be ONE realm/world which will be run my multiple machines/servers, this way we can have one world and you won't have the trouble of full servers. That has always been the intended plan, untill now apparently.
how do you know? i am going by what i have read on the various websites, and what certain devs have recently stated :P
Thom is right, that's always been the plan in every discussion about this here and it seemed to be the most agreed on by the community AND the devs. I've always thought this was 99% certain, at least...
For the record, splitting up the PS community is a terrible idea.
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Indeed. *points at Kerol's and Kiern's posts*
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For the record, splitting up the PS community is a terrible idea.
but the community is already split!!!
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For the record, splitting up the PS community is a terrible idea.
but the community is already split!!!
By choice, which is the important factor here. If people want to split off themselves that's perfectly fine, but forcing them to do it is ridiculous.
If someone really doesn't know how to RP, they're more than likely going to choose the other server, when if they joined the RP server they might learn to like it and meet people there who really get them into it. With the split servers, that just isn't going to happen.
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Exactly. Most new people would think "RP?, Roleplay? WTF is that, I'll just go to the powerlevelling, WoW style server".
When I first joined I too thought this was a kind of WoW, I learned to RP and that it is fun to do. I play Guildwars too, but I hate it more and more because people don't bother to RP there, just grinding and making profit. Don't split up the community, don't give in to the unknowing, keep one world!
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What absolutely astounds me is the people who find out this is a roleplay game but still choose to stay and promote anti roleplay. That is completely idiotic.
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ThomPhoenix
so in effect you are anti anti-roleplaying, and believe that anyone who doesnt enjoy roleplaying should be enforced to endure the company of those who do, how ever much they dislike it?
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It amazes me how many people cannot grasp the concept of RP. They all act like it is work or something!
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I did think that if they don't like it, they can look for another game..
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i am not against roleplaying ... but i'm aware that some people are, and i don't see why they should have any less right to play the game than those who do
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Well, because Talad has built PlaneShift for a certain kind of players. Vengeance for example agrees that everyone should be able to play no matter what they like to do - Talad considers roleplayers his first and only priority and the people he makes PlaneShift for.
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gimme a quote.
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Look around.
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Venge is being pragmatic, and Talad likes to hope we can all get along. I think that as we progress the two concepts can merge together.
I think what people need to understand, is those that "RP" or "PL" are both not playing the game as intended. You're not supposed to just make up stories and chat all day any more than you're supposed to just kill things and never talk to anyone else. PS intends to be an RPG where people play the game in character. That means playing the game; there are warriors killing lots of things, craftsmen, mages, merchants, even people who don't necessarily train any skills, and even the occasional dedicated story teller. All this is in a truly living world, with multiple active quests and active economic and societal systems. However, while we intend accommodate many different styles of gameplay into one cohesive world, everyone is expected to chat and act from the perspective of their character.
At this point, no, we can't do this. The infrasturcures don't yet exist, so the community self-divides. This will not always be the case, and I do hope those who are used to the (rather boring) extreme forms of both RP and PL don't try and keep them around forever.
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Well said DaveG lets all try to get along after all at moment both are needed to fully test the game.
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I am assuming you are trying to quote me. If not I will answer anyway.
so in effect you are anti anti-roleplaying .....
I don't like to label myself thanks. I am not in favor of those who stick around only to be rebels and be attention grabbers only because they don't agree with roleplay. If that is the case this isn't the place for you. If you love the game but aren't a roleplayer and don't purposely ruin roleplays for others ... then I see no problems with them staying and playing the game. So, no I am not Anti anit- roleplay. I just respect what the devs have created for us and what Talads vision for this game is.
and believe that anyone who doesnt enjoy roleplaying should be enforced to endure the company of those who do, how ever much they dislike it?
Did I say anything about enforcing? (And it isn't enforced in game a whole lot unless someone is being a jack ass) No I said it was idiotic. Meaning I can't understand why.....
(1)they would want to waste their life and spend time ruining the enviroment for the true roleplayers. Just go play another game. Is that so hard?
(2) Why would play a game where there is clearly a limit to their leveling up, and obvious there is no challenge in the game really (besides roleplaying) or a goal at this point. There is nothing to win. (Maybe in the future there might be)
(3) What is the reason to hate roleplay so much? Seriously, why knock it? Most of these people who are anti roleplay haven't even tried it.
(4) ??? What is the point of anti roleplay in a game that is clearly made for roleplayers.
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so in effect you are anti anti-roleplaying, and believe that anyone who doesnt enjoy roleplaying should be enforced to endure the company of those who do, how ever much they dislike it?
Lol, best quote on me ever!
But your choice of words is exactly wrong and proves my point.
You say "endure", that means that for some reason you hate roleplayers and can't stand playing on the same server as them, why is that?
This is a Role Playing Game (RPG), so if you can't stand roleplayers and only want to slay, slay and slay monsters, go out and buy a copy of Unreal Tournament!
As I said before, and as DaveG just said again:
We don't need extreme RP'ers, nor extreme powerlevellers, people will have to be flexible and the large majority already is.
Mostly it's misunderstanding, people who hate RP think RP'ers are dull people who just stand in the same place all day and write books about their characters. That's not true, you also RP just by acting you live in a medieval type world, as you should, plus it's not hard to do. Just use your imagination!
Anyway, I think the people who want a non-RP server actually don't know what they're talking about, don't know what RP is and are just repeating others because they think non-RP==WoW.
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http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24739.0 :whistling: :innocent:
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I'm sorry, were you trying to make some sort of point by linking to a thread in Hydlaa Plaza? :P
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same community, right? ;)
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No :) Check the WoW forums sometime.
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same community, right? ;)
Some of these players are hardly around. What's the point to your second last post Mindari? Am I missing something?
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Indeed, you did pick your topic carefully.
And by the way, we were talking mostly about behaviour in-game.
That someone makes a silly post on this forum doesn't automatically mean he is not a Roleplayer.
Which again proves my point that you don't properly understand what roleplaying is...
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As I said before, and as DaveG just said again:
We don't need extreme RP'ers, nor extreme powerlevellers, people will have to be flexible and the large majority already is.
With respect, I most strongly disagree.
Extreme players are inspirations, examples that others love or hate, take as role-models, or oppose.
They mark the boundaries of what it is possible for a person to do.
Imagine the real world, without celebrities, stars, atheletes, heroes or villians.
All of the interesting people, gone...
Why would you want to make PS such a place?
~Verrliit~
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I think "extremes" means snobs who think that their roleplay makes them superior and look down upon non-RPers as inferior people :)
Arrogance is not welcome here.
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Extreme players are inspirations, examples that others love or hate, take as role-models, or oppose.
They mark the boundaries of what it is possible for a person to do.
Imagine the real world, without celebrities, stars, atheletes, heroes or villians.
All of the interesting people, gone...
The world would be a much better place without terrorists I'm sure. Extremists aren't celebrities or atheletes, or anything like that. Extremists are people who only do things their way (which is outside of the perceived centre of society), and will most often try and force others, consciously and/or unconsciously, into also being that way. As earth would be better without suicide bombers, PS would be better without extreme powerlevelers and extreme roleplayers. In my opinion anyway :) I believe that's what Dave and Thom are saying, people will have to be flexible and allow other people to play differently to them.
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There are a lot of great posts here since my shocking "two server" post. :-)
We have always talked about one world with no preset limits on how many people could join or participate together, such as WoW or EQ, which have dozens of different server clusters and essentially no interaction between clusters unless you pay to transfer your character.
We have also always thought about having different servers with different major options enabled and disabled. For example, the first big fight I ever had with Talad was back in 2001 after I implemented the /tell command in the chat system. He was against it and told me to take it out. A 3 hour argument ensued. :-) He said it wasn't RP-consistent and wasn't realistic. I said if people cannot talk to their friends it is not an MMO. He finally relented and allowed the feature in once we proposed that after the game was big enough, we could have a very strict server where things like guild chat and /tell and seeing players' names over their heads without being introduced would be disabled. Think perma-death.
No one is proposing splitting servers arbitrarily, but splitting them along philosophical lines. I agree it is a shame to do but it might just be mirroring a reality which exists in the player base, which is that players themselves are split along philosophical lines.
Nothing is a given though yet, so don't worry. And it is a long way off. The devs want to hold off on having to maintain multiple boxes for as long as possible.
- Venge
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I think the seperate server idea is a good idea. Personally I think that some people dont play because of the people they know that they will see. Long way off or not, sounds good to me.
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I'm still against multiple philosophically different servers.
I also can't understand how a server where you can't /tell someone is going to work.
When the world gets larger and larger, and more players join in you would be spending at least an hour trying to find your friends to hook up with them. In real life you know where someone lives or where his work is, but in an MMO you would probably need to search all monsters spawn, all shops, all dungeons, all quest places, all mining places to check where your friend is, as people aren't tried down in an MMO.
Let's just hope that in the far future people change their minds and they have other things to complain about :)
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in real life, you dont have contact with your friends during the day whilest you are both at work, you would make it a habit of meeting up at a local bar each evening if you wanted to talk ;o)
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We have also always thought about having different servers with different major options enabled and disabled.
I don't know how that fight went, but I think that many things that obviously aren't RP related in the first place can have a place in RP in one way or the other.
Many things can be worked around with, have uses for RP, although nobody thought at them before.
Disabling /tell, guildchat or even PvP/PvM or the labels completely is a very bad idea IMO.
Each feature has use in RP, depending on how you RP and what you plan to do.
I'm for dedicated PvP areas on one side and promoting the taverns and other RP dedicated places on the other side, but I see the strength of PS in the possibility to get confronted with different styles, the possibility to learn from people who use a feature in a different way. And not only to have "your" features present for "your" way of gameplay.
I also see that as a big reason for people to stay playing for so long. There is always something new to learn.
The base for everything like that clearly is respect and tolerance.
If a community lacks of respect inside, that's a problem in general, and that can't be simply solved by seperating groups. And if a community doesn't lack respect (which I think is the case in here, most of the time), there's no need to seperate groups.
Since the last release, the world really is large enough for everyone.
I like to promote the possibility to meet different people, but with that lot of space, people can seperate themselves, if they want to. And I don't see a reason to either force them to meet other people, nor seperate them completely, thus taking the possibility to meet foreign gaming-styles.
As long as the world is rather big, relative to the number of players, I don't see a problem with people standing on each others foots, really.
Personally I think that some people dont play because of the people they know that they will see.
If you don't want to be seen, create a new char, wander into another part of the world and leave them alone..
In a year, we'll have thousand players and chances are that you actually can hide in the masses if you want to, which is a bit problematic now with only 100-200 people online.. but not impossible.
Extreme players are inspirations, examples that others love or hate, take as role-models, or oppose.
I think as long as the emphasize lies on "players" and not "extreme" I can agree.
Taking something to an extreme, whatever it is, can be indeed an inspiration for other people, love or hate.
That's not limited to RP or PLing. The problem occurs when those people become "fanatics", negating any other opinion different from their own.
Little example: The tour de France. Those athletes do extremes (wether with drugs or not). That's OK as long as those athletes don't say "biking is the one and only sport, everyone must bike!".
I mean, I find it OK that a player competes with himself or other people of the same mindset, why not? As long as he doesn't go around saying "you're stupid, you don't play the way I do".
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in real life, you dont have contact with your friends during the day whilest you are both at work, you would make it a habit of meeting up at a local bar each evening if you wanted to talk ;o)
Just a thought e-mail, phone , internet.
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yh but not with the level of technology that yliakum has ;o) anyway show me a guy who isnt to lazy to take time to write an email / make a phone call hehe. i think removing /tells would make the game very ... interesting from a role playing perspective
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Interesting yes, but fun?
Your friend is doing a quest in the Eternal mountains of Doom on the edge of the world and you're in The glorious city of the Trolls. You want to go hunting together with your friend, how do you meet up with him? You don't know where he is, and he doesn't know what you want, where you are, etc. At the moment this would not be a problem, but when Planeshift is ready with all it's maps/levels and the game gets really crouded, that will be a problem. In the end, people would just discuss where they are to meet up in the game in IRC or teamspeak, and the removing of the /tells wouldn't have any effect at all except for being an annoyance.
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i agree with a lot that venge has to say :-p