PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: Under the moon on September 29, 2006, 03:10:33 am
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This is what I have been wishing for since I very first logged into the game so long ago:
I want a third path in Character Creation tailored and fit to roleplayers. One that you can create exactly the character you have in mind, with the powers and 'stats' you need to play that character convincingly to both RPers and the levelers, who see only stats when trying to RP. There would limits and caps, of course. A roleplay created character would not be able to 'level up' as much due to reduced experience given in the game. They would also not be able to make 'uber' characters, as there would be limits due to a semi class system (sort of like the Quick paths in CC now). Nothing major, just something to keep folks from making a character that is great at everything. I do so hate that. Another thing that would keep everyone but dedicated RPers form choosing this path would be restricted access to most basic ‘newbie’ quests. Only ‘epic’ level quests would be open. There would also be some sort of death penalty for combat related death. Time spent in DR or loss of items. Or maybe limited number of times dying. Not sure on that yet.
The "Why": Easy. There are five basic reasons. One, there are a lot of players out there that don't like 'leveling' and running around killing things. I happen to be one of them. I grew out of Diablo...well, halfway through playing it.
Two: the way the game is now, any history you may have made up is nullified by the way you have to play. Take someone who is RPing a merc that has been one all his life. Now he has to go out of character for a few weeks just to get the 'stats' to back that up. That makes no sense in an RP game. Unless we are intended to all play the same helpless peasants in the start? If that is the case, many people will quit right now.
Three: Time. I work forty-plus hours a week, plus an hour and a half of travel time a day. Take life duties into account, and I can play very little at a time. Most of the time, not at all during the week. There are a great many folks out there with that same problem. We simply don't have time to waste on doing something that is not fun to us. AKA, leveling. A fight on occasion is fun, but not the requirement to do it as a job. The same for mining.
Four: Balance. The game is precariously tipped to powerlevers right now. I don't care what crafts or other things you add, it will still be this way. While RPers are 'wasting time' (as I was told by a PLer) talking, they are out becoming gods and hording piles of money. Then they come back in and try to RP with the ones who do not PL. It is an awful mess, as they take one look at the “You evaluate…” text, and RP by that. *sigh* It has happened to me. Another thing is that most RPers I know seem to have more than one character. I have seven right now, which is more than average, I know. Can you imagine all the time I would have to spend on each of them? It makes me cringe. That is why I only play the little people. Even leveling one or two characters is a lot of wasted time to a roleplayer.
Five: The challenge. A roleplay path character will have actual consequences for their actions. The wrong moves can lead to the loss of that character. many epic single player RPGs have this, and it makes for some great suspense and game play.
That is basically it. Many roleplayers would like this. Many many other people would not. That is why it would be a nice option.
You may now go into indignant flaming rant mode.
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...Would you get something out of it?
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"...you can create exactly the character you have in mind, with the powers and 'stats' you need to play that character convincingly..."
Yes. Hours and hours of saved time.
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I like the Idea, but you would need a failsafe to make sure nobody made the best player in the world, and dominated everyone else. It would break the balance.
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I know for certain that some members of the team believe that actually playing the game (and yes, that means training) is as important as roleplaying. Coming in with an awesome character, while it does save a player time, feels "easy." We're here to evolve our characters from nothing. As interesting as this idea sounds, to me it seems just like someone buying an account to a game like WoW for instance, with (nearly) everything already leveled and all the cool stuffs and... that's it. You're almost done. Now you hang around and act cool.
And yes, I am well-aware that powerful characters for RP are sometimes necessary, but who feels better about their character - someone who worked with them day and night for months, or someone who clicked a few buttons?
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Day and night for months... Clicking on rats, then teffus, then bandits... That is not roleplaying. That is pure hell. That is assuming some of us have day and night to play.
I do work on my characters day and night, but I don't spend that time in front of a screen clicking. I develop them in my mind. Words, actions, intertwining pasts, all of it. And I enjoy that far more than the infinitely boring select-click-kill. /dig, nothing. /dig, nothing. /dig, yay, something.
If you read my post, you would have understood that this does not give an advantage over the ‘trained’ players. This path comes with severe limits and costs. An RP path character will -never- be able to ‘level’ as high as the other paths. But what does that matter to a player what has exactly the character they want. There is only one way to roleplay the game now without going out of character. That is to start out as the know nothing farm boy/girl who just comes to the big city to make hisher way in the world. There is no other way. You say you are a great warrior as you first step into the game? Your stats say otherwise.
I resent you comparing this to purchasing an account in WoW, Diablo, or any of the other ‘Player progression” games. Not only that, it implies to me that that is all there is to this game as well. Get to the top after months of work…then look cool? That disturbs me to think of it that way. But, it brings to mind the Super Weapons of Uber Death, and the cool new armor that everyone HAS to have. Oh, and the bestest shiny magics! gotta have those.
And also, certain team members are wrong. There are many ways to roleplay, and not all of them consist of endless hours of training, and doing ‘tasks’ (I refuse to call them quests) that everyone else has done before them. You are cutting out all the players who do not like to play that way. You may remember them...as they walked out the door.
I counter your question with one of my own. Who feels better, the person who spent all that time clicking their way to uberpowerfullness in every stat they can then has nothing left to do, or the person who has to sit on the sidelines wishing they had the time just to make the character they wish for?
Answer me that. Then tell me why I should stay.
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I think a good way to fix this problem would be to limit the amount of experience and/or tria/items that can be obtained in say a 48 hour period. If there were a limit of, say, 10 monsters that you could kill each 48 hour period to give you experience, then you would not be at a disadvantage if you could only login a reasonable amount of time every 2 days, compared to being able to be online 10 hours a day. You could still kill more than 10 monsters in that time period- but it would be for pure roleplay, as you wouldnt gain anything extra. If this were implemented straight after a complete character wipe, then the roleplayers would be able to strengthen their characters at the same rate as the powerlevers. The 48 hours could be tweaked to be longer or shorter, as necessary.
The result of this would be a far greater portion of time in game spent roleplaying, as people would be forced to actually do something with that extra time that isnt going to strengthen their character to ridiculous levels.
Anyone else think this is a good idea / horrible idea? Criticisms?
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I completely agree with you. Powerleveling just...completely takes out the feel of who I'm trying to roleplay, it makes me want to just abandon the character because I did something OOC. Back when I first started playing, I loved it, and played and learned to roleplay as I went. Well guess what? First character was ruined due to OOC actions. I didn't quite know how to roleplay, but it was a nicely powerleveled character I'd spent a lot of time on. So, I make another...guess what? The monster AI's were working again, so I had to train on rats...for so...so...long. That got boring as HELL, so I go to mine and see if I can get a little money. Dig, nothing, dig, nothing, dig, nothing...45 times later, dig, you found some gold. Hurray, I spent an hour trying to get money and I got 2 progression points and one gold that only sells for 40 some trias. Now I have to do that 9 more hours so I have enough money to get that one level. And here's something highly retarded - I never meant for that character to be a miner, but the way things are it's the only way to gain money. Sure, there'll be things in the future, but mining is no different from powerleveling. I have to go totally OOC to powerlevel, and all I want is more intelligence for my character, and that's it. Say I'd want to be...a smart enkidukai? Well, out of character creation, I choose just about every intelligence-based stat I can think of, but there's that blasted CP, darn. What are my finishing stats? Oh, this is interesting...94 agility, 48 intelligence. What the hell? Races, and powerleveling, and these unoriginal histories, oh and my mortal enemy, CP, completely ruined my character. Now to get that intelligence I want to roleplay my enkidukai scholar, I have to go and mine for money, then grab swords and max that skill so I can get more than 30 experience per kill.
This RP path thing, I don't entirely understand it, but I would like it to be implimented. From what I know, you're saying that skills should be gained through RP, and from your character's history, not powerleveling, right? Some limits of course, but none of that CP "you can't have this skill it'd make you overpowered" crap just to give you enough intelligence to still not even figure out how strong someone is so you can roleplay with your character. Maybe my character just wants to be a good groffletoe player? He would need high intelligence, MAYBE charisma? Well I have to max all my other stats, then max swords and go kill everything I see. Then I have to mine until my finger goes numb from clicking that damned mine shortcut so many times. Heyyy, whaddya know? I finally have maxed intelligence, but now everyone knows me as "that powerleveler" not "that roleplayer" because I spent weeks on end maxing all those stats and skills just so I could get my freaking intelligence where I needed it. I'm certainly not gonna be able to only train intelligence with low stats, no fighting skill, and only 30 experience per kill. It's stupid.
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A couple problems:
1. All players are supposed to be roleplaying.
2. Entering the game with a fully levelled character goes against the concept of the game.
It is possible to level up your character and stay in character at the same time, believe it or not.
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This idea could work, but there realy needs to be somethink what will stop everybody from choosing it.
I think we can get max rank 70 in sword... Character made along Under the moons idea would start max with 30 out of 60 rank points in lets say sword and now has choice what to do with the rest. Put it all in armor training? a bit on everything?
But we will need changes in current gameplay as well. 1) or 2).
1) you can train every possible skill to 70 (commonly available) sword, axe, melee, mining,crafting, armor... everything
2) at the char creation... if in game you can train sword to 70 and mining to 35, then if you spent a point on sword, you gain a rank, but to gain rank in mining you have to spent 2 points. It all depends whats max in game.
Both will be annoying when devs will want to add new skills and make cap for other skills higher or lover.
Two-three times as hard progressing, possibility for perma deatch and more. All kinds of restrictions may be good.
With such skills we have very avarage character in only one profession. Fair? As long as PLers wont take the path to advance faster, then it is fair for me. If RPers will take he path it is ok for me, as i don't care much about stats of others, as long as they know how to behalve ICly.
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Serious question: If you only roleplay in the strictest sense possible - why do you even need the stats at all?
Limitations of the setting
The current system that PS (and pretty much all the other games) have is: You start with a simple, comparatively unexperienced player. This somewhat limits you in the choices of your char's history.
The "path of the roleplayer" cannot be effectively limited in a way that is fair and makes sense, unless you have regular life cycles (characters dying eventually, aging, children and all these things - see below). On the contrary, I believe that this "option" would eventually be the choice especially PLers will take as a shortcut. "Imagonna make new char but dnt wanna mezz with lo lvl mobs ololol kthxbai". No good.
Quests? Who cares about quests if you are a true-and-only PL?
Death
The discussion is not new, so I'll cut to the chase: The reason why there's almost no games that have characters who, once they are dead, remain dead. There's an influence outside the game world: the connection between client and server. (fictional now:) Say, you run from Akkaio to Hydlaa and your ISP decides to kick you off the net for a few minutes. Your client exits, but the server has not realized yet that you are offline. Your char, now out of control, runs into a group of ten Ulbernauts. Bam, char is dead and lost forever. This can only cause grief, and as GM or dev we'd have to say "sorry, there's nothing we can do". Now that would suck.
Time in game
I know the problem - I don't have enough time to game as much as I want. And I too hate it if some 14yr old kid levels twice as fast as I do just because they have all afternoon. But that's just it, your character "sleeps" all the time that you are not there. That's also a limitation that is hard to work around. I hate it, but there's not much that can be done. Your char would have to go to "auto-mode" once you log off, instead of disappearing. But if we had that, fragnetics would need a couple dozen more machines to manage the tens of thousands of characters that actually exist - not even mentioning the problem of overpopulation.
;)
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This wish is pretty useless and even if it did somehow happen (which it never will) it would give nothing to the general community.
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Serious question: If you only roleplay in the strictest sense possible - why do you even need the stats at all?
Now there is a good question and one of which I wonder myself. I don't use my stats. I couldn't care less about them. I used to power level when I first came to planeshift and had no clue what roleplaying was. Now that is all I do when I log into game, I roleplay and care not about what is in my inventory (unless needed for the visual of roleplay), and my stats have no bearing on my roleplaying skills OR my character. :D I dream up what I want Zorbels to be, not game mechanics.
When it comes to realistic training hours I think the dev team has the system set up alright. I mean you can't learn to sword fight in one day. It would take hours of training. For me it did just that. Zorbels is awesome with her swords, but give her a pick to dig gold ore and you will get a blank look as she wouldn't know the first thing about mining. My stats and skills say different and that Zorbels does know how to mine. Well I feel more realisim my way so I ignore that stats. Not only that but now I have opened up myself to promoting team work and roleplay because now I can hire a couple of characters to mine for me. Maybe they are not as good at slaying beasts as I am, so instead the make their trias from my skills, and I get some gold ore through their's.
Now what are those sword skills really used for in my daily roleplay? Absolutely nothing. Oh sure I can kill ulber after ulber, but so what? Where's the fun in that or the realistic feel we seem to be going for in planeshift? Things may change as the game develop's, but for now I think pushing the game to be what it cannot accommodate right now won't help anything.
I wonder at times if people take the way the game is being developed a little to serious, enough to have them lose sight of the fun they once had in this wonderful world. You can be anything you want in planeshift if you don't abuse the rules and settings. Game mechnics does not prevent that or help it either. Only you control your character and what path her/she may take.
:) That's just my my opinion, though I do like your idea UTM I really can't see how it will help make planeshift a better place. Also I want to address a little comment you made in your post.
Balance. The game is precariously tipped to powerlevers right now.
The reason I ask this next question is only because as a roleplayer I have never had this effect me and I am curious as to how it may effect you.
Please explain to me how powerleveling effects your roelplaying? Especailly if these people are not involved? If they are invovled then you should kindly tell them that you have a different way of playing planeshift, and powerleveling doesn't fit into your story line. Then encourage and teach them your ways if they are willing to learn. If not then you know who not to invite. To me it is that simple. PS is a big playground and we don't all have to be friends. We are going to have our differences and not like how the other operates. To accept that and let others play they way the will, while they let you play the way you do .... ;) is what makes this an awesome community.
Anyway, I have responded to your wish and hope you understand my criticism, suggestions and confusion on certain issues. :flowers:
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To roleplay, we do need strong characters. Just an example:
Back when I was playing as Xidus, half the time when roleplaying people would say "I can beat you easily" because I never powerleveled him. Then when I do finally train him (IC he had the same power) Satayne was saying I got so much stronger since the last time he saw me.
This wouldn't be a problem at all, except duels are almost needed to be IC depending on what you're roleplaying (pretending you're hitting eachother just...doesn't work), and people with enough intelligence can tell how strong you are. I HATE to pretend, anyone who confuses pretending for roleplaying I don't even want to talk to. Pretend is like saying a chair is a lamp. Roleplay is taking on the experiences and life of someone else. I'm not going to pretend my character's buff and can kill anyone (since clearly that doesn't work because of people who ruin the RP saying you're really weak, just because powerleveling takes monthes), I have to powerlevel or else a good RP won't work because of people calling you some noob.
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To roleplay, we do need strong characters. Just an example:
Back when I was playing as Xidus, half the time when roleplaying people would say "I can beat you easily" because I never powerleveled him. Then when I do finally train him (IC he had the same power) Satayne was saying I got so much stronger since the last time he saw me.
This wouldn't be a problem at all, except duels are almost needed to be IC depending on what you're roleplaying (pretending you're hitting eachother just...doesn't work), and people with enough intelligence can tell how strong you are. I HATE to pretend, anyone who confuses pretending for roleplaying I don't even want to talk to. Pretend is like saying a chair is a lamp. Roleplay is taking on the experiences and life of someone else. I'm not going to pretend my character's buff and can kill anyone (since clearly that doesn't work because of people who ruin the RP saying you're really weak, just because powerleveling takes monthes), I have to powerlevel or else a good RP won't work because of people calling you some noob.
I agree. We're playing characters within a certain setting. Our levels are a part of the setting.
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Miss Karyuu responded to my ‘wish’ and posed a question to me. I do not think I was clear in my answer. First, her question does not have one clear answer. The fact is, both someone who 'works' at a character through leveling, and one who custom builds one in CC can find equal satisfaction, depending on on their personality. Let me equate this to something Karyuu knows well. Art. The following is addressed to her.
We take you, Karyuu, lovely person that you are, as the first example. You love starting with a blank canvas and watching your art bloom from nothing as you work. In the end, you have something you are proud of, and enjoyed doing. You can hold it up and say "This is what I did."
Now, take someone that hates drawing, painting, or arting in any other way (not me). Does that mean this person does not like art? No. many of these people love art, and have it hanging in their house for all to see. They are proud and enjoy that they have something so beautiful to share with others. Do they feel bad that they did not create it themselves? Do they feel any less because it was made for them, just as they wanted? No. Do others shame them for not making the art themselves? No. I give for you the example of the picture Moogie made for me. I love it, and am very proud of it. I did not touch one pixel in it, but it was made to my exact specifications. I did not 'level' or take any steps to make the actual picture. Though Moogie made it, it is mine. It is mine by the fact that there is a 60,000+ words set of stories behind it that I -did- work on.
Now, think of the game as Moogie, and the characters as art -as I do-. I tell the game what I want, and it creates the character, my art, to my exact specifications. It is mine by how I play it. The work I put into make him/her real to others make it mine. Do I feel bad that I did not level it, which is something I absolutely hate doing? No. Quite the opposite. I feel good because I can spend more time doing what I love. That is weaving my character's lives into the lives of others.
Some would feel robbed if they did it that way, thinking they missed out on all the 'training' related gameplay. Are they right? Yes. For them, they would be missing out. Just as if you could no longer make art, but had to get it from someone else.
But on the other hand, think of the people that do not have the time, skill, or desire to make that art themselves. Should they have no art hanging in their house because they could not, or did not want to make it themselves? Think of the people that find leveling their characters detestable, and feel that it ruins the feel and mood of them. Should they be cut out of the game? Should I be cut out of the game?
Both ways are right. Please understand what I am saying. I love this game, this world, and the people. But... -to go back to the art example- there are many, many blank spaces on my walls for the simple fact that I can not paint the pictures myself.
And many people are telling me that you can just roleplay the way you want to. Ignore game stats and mechanics and create my own ‘stats’. Yes... and I could also draw doodles on a paper towel and pretend it is Whisper's Mother. Other people might also pretend along with me....but we all know what we really see. Doodles on a paper towel. That is all some people will ever see.
This is in no way elitist, as the ever kind and objective Zanzi stated. It is simply a wish to be included. Once the game starts relying more on game mechanics and stats to do most things, as it should, I am going to feel very left out. As will the other players like me.
As to the further profoundly objective statement about this wish “giving nothing to the general community”, ask anyone who has met my ‘unleveled’ characters about them. Ask them why they cheer whenever Hyuken rolls out from under the bar, or Aeshion glides silently into a room. Ask them why they looked forward to Krook glaring at any enki in his path, and spitting at anyone who gets too close, may he now rest in peace. You can even ask about my less known characters that simple try to fill an empty place in the world. Then ask yourself one question. What did your hours and hours of leveling bring to the general community?
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I don't like stats either. That's why I'll take FUDGE over AD&D anytime. But since stats are in the game and its settings, they're important.
There's process and there's product. Like with art, I'm here for the joy of playing the game, not for the legacy I create for myself.
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I am afraid you misunderstand me. I have nothing against stats. They are supposed to be who we are in the game. What I am against is being forced to level up those stats to become the character I want to play. Some like taking the ladder path, some do not. But it is a choice I would like to have. I do play by my stats. The problem with that is I can only play characters that are at the lowest level. I could perhaps play a young person that wants to make his way up in the world through training... but I do not wish to. To me, that is not fun. If it is not fun, then why play? It becomes a job then, only without pay.
The choice I want is this: Choose your own stats, based on the character you want. No leveling, no training. The trade off is you don't get to level up like the other paths. Your character is basically set in stone, with just a little shifting room. This is not for everyone, but then neither is the ladder path. I wish for both. 'Leveler' type players are needed just as much as pure roleplay types. Otherwise, the world would be rather empty. The two side draw inspiration from each other. And somewhere in the middle, there is a merge, and wonderful things can happen. But for that merge to take place, there has to be the choice.
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You can post here all you want, but the Devs never even read this forum. The wish list is simply that - a wish, and wishes never actually come true.
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Oh boy, suno is bringing the drama! *rolls eye's*
:thumbup: Nice post moon. You put alot of thought and came across really clear. I understand what you are wishing for and I in part agree with you. Stat's or no stat's I love this game for the roleplay, but if your idea makes this a better place then I am all for it.
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Suno, if you're depressed or bored or angry, there is no need to try to step on us volunteers who are doing you all a favor by working on this hobby in the first place. I am absolutely tired of this poor attitude you seem to be having lately and directing at our team. Unless I am somehow no longer a developer in your eyes, I am proof that the wishlist is not ignored.
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A side note, but I think it is still valid to this thread.
UTM's ideas aren't that far fetched. A new commercial online rpg game, currently still in beta I believe, was going to introduce a system, where the player could at any time, copy thier character as a new character on thier account. All stats and skills and whatnot would be the same as the original character, a clone of that character so to say. Consider it like a save game point like on any other game out their. The player could then continue to advance thier first character down one path, while taking a completely different path with the clone, all the while not having to go through the "pain" of releveling the clone from beginner stats. The name of the game escapes me at the moment, but if I remember it, I'll be sure to post it.
The whole reasoning behind something like this is to make the game enjoyable. Some people don't have the time to level each char up just to play a different role. So inventive ways are thought up and produced to make it as fun as possible for all types of players. UTM's ideas, and the character clone idea I gave as example above, are just trying to accomplish this.
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Suno, if you're depressed or bored or angry, there is no need to try to step on us volunteers who are doing you all a favor by working on this hobby in the first place. I am absolutely tired of this poor attitude you seem to be having lately and directing at our team. Unless I am somehow no longer a developer in your eyes, I am proof that the wishlist is not ignored.
I didn't know you were a developer, and I haven't seen any suggestions posted in this forum yet that actually have been used. Maybe some will be in the future, but right now I fail to see anything.
I'm having a few problems in real life, I admit, but I didn't think I was bringing any of them here.
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So you don't hate stats, but you do hate levelling?
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A side note, but I think it is still valid to this thread.
UTM's ideas aren't that far fetched. A new commercial online rpg game, currently still in beta I believe, was going to introduce a system, where the player could at any time, copy thier character as a new character on thier account. All stats and skills and whatnot would be the same as the original character, a clone of that character so to say. Consider it like a save game point like on any other game out their. The player could then continue to advance thier first character down one path, while taking a completely different path with the clone, all the while not having to go through the "pain" of releveling the clone from beginner stats. The name of the game escapes me at the moment, but if I remember it, I'll be sure to post it.
The whole reasoning behind something like this is to make the game enjoyable. Some people don't have the time to level each char up just to play a different role. So inventive ways are thought up and produced to make it as fun as possible for all types of players. UTM's ideas, and the character clone idea I gave as example above, are just trying to accomplish this.
I like that idea, actually. I wanted to bring all of Mitaki's stats, skills, and progression points to a new character, and abandon him, but it wasn't allowed.
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I like that idea, actually. I wanted to bring all of Mitaki's stats, skills, and progression points to a new character, and abandon him, but it wasn't allowed.
For good reason. Stats are not something you obtain. Stats are reflective of the activities of your character. New character? Fresh stats.
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Yes, but that character has to have a history. Say he trained every day of his childhood. Why does he only have 73 strength?
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Stats: Logic....
Planeshift is a roleplaying game
In Planeshift there are stats
Therefore, stats have something to do with roleplaying. (terribly flawed logic, but you get the gist of it)
Even in hard core roleplaying stats will play a part. It's the only real way to counter god RP (besides the ban-stick...which I want).
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The game is still in alpha, which, in every sense of the term means that not all the features are present.
The one feature that is most lacking in this case is to advance as a smart character, which is, to my knowledge, lacking in almost every MMORPG out there. Because of this limitation it is hard to Roleplay. Sure, there are those scholars who had to start off life as a miner to get tria, makes sense, but not every scholar had to do that. Some of you may point out magic, but, even while you do that, you know you are being ridiculous.
Moons idea will not work. I wish it could but, moon assumes one fataly incorrect point. And that is that Powerlevelers have the ability to think. If they see that you get more CP as a "Roleplaying Character" they'll take that path. Added to which, many of the powerlevelers I know like the challenge of leveling, and so, making it harder and skipping the low level nonsense everybody hates...yeah, they are going to love it.
It's a tough grind right now. I understand Moon's dilema, considering I am much the same when it comes to Planeshift. Nurahk is a softer character if you will, he won't fight(fairly) and he would never do anything as menial as mining unless he loved it. The man behind the character has different reason, but the same end result.
What has to be added is a fun way to level those not exaclty hands on kind of people, I don't exactly know how they would do that. Perhaps alchemy, perhaps literature. I don't exactly know, but it's just another feature that we don't have yet and so we need to be patient just a little bit longer.
A few notes: "little bit long" is used in an amazingly relative way...to say...the ... the age of the universe.
I may have missed a couple posts on my skimming of the thread. I account that mainly to your long windedness and am sorry for any re-saying (new term) I did.
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Zanzi, you are a great man but
It really seems to me like UTM just want another way to feel elite over others
That's 1) useless 2) unwarranted 3) false and you know it 4) funny
You think I'm a great man? *sniff* *sniff*
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Moons idea will not work. I wish it could but, moon assumes one fataly incorrect point. And that is that Powerlevelers have the ability to think. If they see that you get more CP as a "Roleplaying Character" they'll take that path. Added to which, many of the powerlevelers I know like the challenge of leveling, and so, making it harder and skipping the low level nonsense everybody hates...yeah, they are going to love it.
The way I understood Moony's post was that after initial char creation, they wouldn't be able to level, or maybe just a few points here and there. Plus, given the right balances, they won't start out all powerful, so to the player that enjoys leveling, they will not choose this path as it wouldn't have what they want to do, which is level thier char to max.
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Hmm, they don't have to start out powerful. The lowest levels are the only annoying one, this would attract the powerleveler.
They would be able to level, it would just be harder. From my limited experience, I find that Power Levelers enjoy the challenge and so would be attracted to the added difficulty of the leveling.
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Then let them. Powerleveling is not an evil thing. If folks did not enjoy it, they would not do it. I do not enjoy it, so i do not do it. Simple as that.
And yes, if you re-read my very first post, and some of the ones after it, you will see that this is not a path made for leveling. Strong limits would be enforced. So what if a PL tried it and found they did not like it? The same goes for making a character in a race you do not like in the end. You start over, only taking the one you do like.
Since I do not seem to be making myself clear enough for some people, this is my stance on the game:
1. Your character is based or your stats. This I agree with, and follow it. The stats are there for a reason.
2. As it is now, you has to level to get those stats. This I do not agree with for myself, and for other players like me.
3. I have never said to get rid of leveling. In fact, I have given suggestions for making it funner for the levelers. Fun for me? No.
In effect, I support stats limiting your character, as they do, but do not support the path you are forced to take to get those stats.
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Powerleveling isn't an evil thing, but when done in mass, which it always is, it ruins the Roleplaying experience.
Your first point for example, the stats are there for a reason, I agree, but with powerleveling and a level cap (which you need) all PLers will end up with the same level. The damage done to the roleplaying aspect is impossible to ignore.
Your second point, I disagree with. You should have to do something to get your stats, you can't just be born with those stats and, if your character has those stats he must be used to the work needed to get them.
As to your third point, leveling should be enjoyable, I liked the suggestion of a limit over a time period, and perhaps you should gain experience constantly, ten pp per week or something.
In effect, to leave out leveling is against roleplaying. It's like leaving out ... everything besides sleep in life. Perhaps if everything you did gave you experience, but that would be weird.
Now, I'm not attacking your style of roleplaying, though it seems like it I admit. But, the rules should consider the standard way people roleplay and, you differ from that. You play many characters who come and go (and I usualy get mad at you for the going part :P). But you can't add a whole new system based on the way a select few play, atleast not this early on or at any point in the forseable futur.
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Actually I do think that it is important to work for what you want to present, however I do strongly believe that the current status is utmost discouraging, considering the fact, that when you start out you are not only naked and flat broke, you are also helpless, as most guilds are not interested in taking "newbies". However there is no satisfying way to deal with that problem during character generation. A preset specialised starting outfit of items would certainly work in a system of class based character generation. However, in a freetype chargen, this is not an option. A standardised starting equipment is unsatisfying as well. The only option that remains, is to have the first steps guided by the community, being able to think creatively and provide fitting assistance. Due to this, I believe that it is of high importance to create community driven "trade guilds", guiding the characters during the first steps of their journey, while still not binding them to said guild. These guilds might take various appearances, from street fight clubs, to military institutions in which you "serve a term", as well as academies.
That aside I do, and always did, think highly of the principle of specialisation. It might be something very simple like having a preset ammount of skill-level's you can gain and, once depleted, make it necessary to lower a skill whenever you rise another, as well as some sophisticated system, which has skills degrade and advance in conjunction to each other. (meaning that learning metallurgy would automatically help you learn mining, but at the same time cease advance in skills like Azure Way and other sensitive choices)
As harsh as it might sound, Planeshift should be as little of a game for die-hard, puristic RPers, as it should be a game dedicated to powerlevelling.
- Cyl
Disclaimer
As always this post is not directed to a single person, but the concerned reader. By the gods, I did not aim to offend anyone.
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This is all very interesting, but isn't the training part of roleplaying, I mean, you aren't born knowing how to wield a sword.
Unless you learnt how to kick early and had some extra time on your hands before you were born :P
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@Croconil: So, you are a one day old as you start the game? No. Think before you type. :)
@Nurahk: You have misunderstood my intent, Nurahk. I do not wish to do away with leveling, and never have.
Stats do play a great part in roleplay. To ignore that is to not really play the game. Leveling is only ONE ASPECT of the game, not the entire thing. Leveling is not roleplaying to a character who has already lived a full life. Leveling becomes out of character in this case, and as such, NOT roleplaying.
You clearly missed my point with your first statement. This RP path is an OPTION. It is not the do all and end all. With the normal 'ladder' paths that we have now, all PLers do end up at the same levels. How often do you hear someone say "I am maxed in all my skills."? Right, all the time. The RP path would not allow that. You would select your exact stats on creation. There would not be leveling like in the other paths. Some small amounts of leveling may be available through aptitude selected in CC, or through RP type 'quests', such as becoming and apprentice to a master smith/swordsman/mage/whatever. The point is, leveling would not be fast, nor would it be great. You created your character KNOWING who you wanted him to be, so the extreme from-noob-to-hero leveling we have now is pointless. Do not get me wrong, I did not say, and never will say to get rid of said noob-to-hero leveling. I am not even against it, despite how it may sound. But that is for the folks that want to go that path. PLers WILL NOT TAKE THIS RP PATH. The reasons are simple: There is no power leveling to do. You may not create an 'uber' character. You may not turn an RP path character INTO and uber hero, as any leveling you do is very limited. If you want those things, then yes, you will have to take the normal path and work for it. As it should be. The RP path is not, and would never be a shortcut for leveling.
Your second statement: "Doing something" to get your stats is a very narrow point of view, and only includes those that wish to, or enjoy things like that. No, you are not born with the stats. But consider this: Are you born on the day you first created your character? No, as you would be an infant. Then, of course training would be needed. Lots of it. But you are not born on the day you are created your character. Your character existed for many years before you ever thought of him. He has lived and learned through those years before you came to know him. In essence, you did not 'create' him, you assumed his existence from the point you clicked 'upload'. Now take into account that many players create older or more advanced younger characters. Are we to assume that these characters would start out as penniless and unskilled as the young-uns fresh off the farms, and take the same training and leveling path? Of course not. The point of this game is to play a role, not to have one forced on you.
My opinion on your third statement remains the same. Yes, leveling should be fun. If it is not, then you should not be forced to do it. And please, folks, do not bring up the "You can just roleplay and ignore your stats" argument. That is not roleplaying. That is pretending. PS is not the Land of Make Believe, and Mr. Rogers in not our guide (rest his soul).
As to your last point, this confuses me. You know my characters. You have lived with them, and died with them. You have cursed me when they die, and I will not bring them back. They have become as close to real as I can make them. They live and learn through just being. But, according to what you stated, they are against roleplaying. I have not leveled a single one of them. I did not gain any PP EXP or even make any money with them. They are exactly as I meant them to be. If this is against RP, then I am playing the wrong game. If you tell me that I have to level to play today, then I will not be here tomorrow. And I know for a fact that most roleplayers do NOT 'level' all of their abilities. Some of the best I know have never leveled their characters at all. I was just told by someone that when the wipe comes, they will not be re-leveling their character, but will just RP that they have those same powers. I know you have done this yourself, as have all players. Is leveling out against roleplaying? No. Is forcing everyone to level, despite the character type they play against roleplaying? Very much so. Should leveling be tossed out? Of course not! Nothing I have ever said implies that. But it should be just an option. The recommended option, yes, but not the only one.
To your final statement, I am not unique. Everyone besides dedicated PLers play like I do, in some small way. You all create your own 'stats' that the game does NOT support. You all create histories that the game will not verify. You all claim to have some ability that you can not back up with game mechanics. I do not play by my own rules. I play by the rules everyone else does. I just stand out a bit more at times.
@the Cyl: I agree with your ideas, but again not as the only option. In fact, I have thought of this as well before, and thought it would be a very good option. In time, I would like to see many 'paths' you can take from character creation. As it is now, there is only one, with a few variations mixed in. The following is what I would like to see:
Rags to riches Path: Default path. AKA, the one we have now. You start as the know nothing peasant, and use the 'events' to make your low level stats. Leveling is unlimited in all areas. (to a point)
Quick Path: Exactly as it is now, but with more branches to choose from. Certain low level items would be given based on the path. Leveling would be limited to the aptitudes of the path you choose, but unlimited in that path. A basic 'rogue' path would not lead you to become a blacksmith. However 'miner turned rogue' path may. I guess this could be called the Class Path.
Guild Path: Cyl's path. Same as rags-to-riches, but you start out as a new member in an NPC guild. The guild gives you a set inventory of items. Leveling is unlimited in all skills. However, being in the guild gives you training bonuses in that guild's area, and some training may be free, or at a reduces cost. New items would be given to you upon rank advancement. You can leave the guild at any time, but you lose the gained items. Also known as a Ladder Path.
Roleplay Path (option 1): My wish. You create exactly the character you want, with exactly the stats you want, up to set limits based on options similar to Quick Paths. In other words, skip the leveling. CP are still given, but you pay directly for specific higher level stats, rather than events. This lets people create specific higher level characters, but prevents them form making charters that are good at everything. Once ingame YOU MAY NOT LEVEL your character beyond the set limits. All other paths will be able to level higher than this path.
Roleplay Path (option 2): Same as above, but with less CP given to start. You also pay for different aptitudes for your character that you may level in once ingame. This allows you to create a medium level character, and still be able to grow and learn easily in those aptitudes ONLY. You may achieve a higher level in this path than option 1, but still not get as high as the other paths.
Roleplay Path (option 3): This gives you the most CP to spend, and removes some of the caps, but imposes others. The trade off? You slowly LOSE stats as you play, and your character will eventually die. You are also very limited in dueling and endurance. This is for people who wish to play the hardest role of all, the old or dying. If you want to know who would use this option, it would be a very dedicated RPer, or someone just looking for a challenge. There would be certain things you can do (like quests) to lengthen your life. This is just a random thought, though, and not expected to ever happen, so don't pick it out for flaming.
Again, the RP paths would not attract powerlevelers, as there is no PLing to do. Greavers? Maybe, but that is what GMs and banning are for. I never saw the point in punishing everyone for what a few stupid people do. Also, other certain limits could be imposed that would discourage greavers, while not bothering RPers.
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@Croconil: So, you are a one day old as you start the game? No. Think before you type.
I did not say that. Your character HAS to train to be good at something. You cant just be magically good at using a sword or w/e.
But that would be cool. Baby Fenki Kittens :D
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Please read my entire last post, particularly the second long paragraph. Your vision of roleplaying is focused only on the path taken by the new and unskilled. That is not the only path.
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I see what you are saying, but I dont get why you will be able to start stronger than everyone else, but level slower? What would be the reason of your character levelling slower?
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Please read my entire last post, particularly the second long paragraph. Your vision of roleplaying is focused only on the path taken by the new and unskilled. That is not the only path.
As well thought out as your posts are, it might be an idea to learn how to communicate your ideas in fewer words.
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Croconil: The IC explination is simple. Your character has just about reached the extent of his/her abilities. As it is now, when you are about to 'max' your character, leveling becomes very hard and slow, taking many, many PP and EXP. That is the same way it is in real life. Those last few miles are always the hardest. The RP path just sets those max stats lower. Why? Because you choose to do so.
*edited
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Hmm. I doubt it would be used for roleplaying though to be honest. It may happen that everyone thinks 'Ooooh, I can choose to start with higher or lower stats! ill choose higher!' Then we may end up on square one again. Everyone equal skills, stong characters, etc.
But, some people just want a strong character for roleplaying. Seems this idea can swing either way.
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Should I use smaller words as well?
That's your choice, as it is your choice to use more or fewer polite ones.:)
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That is not the case, Croconil. Everyone seems to keep confusing the purpose of this game to be 'leveling'. It is a role playing game. If everyone wants to have a 'stronger' character that can not level much higher, so what? If that is the role they want to play, what right does anyone have to tell them that they are playing the game wrong.
*edit* All right, I am tired of trying to defend myself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_playing_game
Quote that.
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Definitions change and words are used based on convenience and context anyway.
Besides, linking to a wiki article isn't exactly shortening your posts.
*edit*
Definitions are not set in stone. They're malleable. They change based on how they're being used and who's using them. I know what you're trying to say, but there are a variety of opinions out there. There are a lot of games out there which are called RPGs that I don't consider to be roleplaying games, but I'm ok with people calling them RPGs because I understand the way words mean different things to different people. This is all a tangent though...
Posts merged due to a deleted post in-between.
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Yes, we all know its a roleplaying game, and it would be GREAT if evryone roleplayed, but this is not the case. I would say 1 out of 3 people roleplay. Most people just sit there and level thier characters. We need more roleplayers!!!!
But yes, I see your point.
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Looking over this thread, I think the primary problem could be solved with a little modification of the Character creation system. Note that I'm personally more of a powerleveler and stat-maxer or what-have-you though I do have a little idea of what role-playing is.
Well, here is an idea for the character creation:
basically, at startup instead of CP a player has a given reserve of Progress Points (I'm tempted to say around 1000 or so... basically enough to create a normal beginner character as if using the CPs). Some of the existing parts used in the character creation could remain (Personally I like the birthday and the parts that ask about the characters family, though you could get the option to have one or both parents 'died fore you were born' or something. Being an orphan could explin the absence or the parents and such)
However, these options would merely write a few lines of info into your character description while not really effecting your stats too much. The main way of allocating stats would be manually through a system much like the training window seen in-game.
For Roleplayers who have a specific kind of character in mind, they can allocate the points so that their pacifist character doesn't have any ranks in weapon combat or that their vetran swordsman doensn't have any accidental ranks in herbalism or whatever.
Powerlevelers could likewise do what they want to create a specific char, for example they could guarentee at startup that they have at least 1 rank in mining without having to keep going back and forth trying to maniupate events and taking all the -CP events to max stats. Just keep things simple.
Then at the second to last screen, have a spot where the player can enter their characters in-game description. Therebye making up their history the way they see it. Any progress points not spent in character creation would be left with the character so they can train any skills they need in-game.
So basically, The way I see it have a few screens to remind people to include the 'Roleplay' characteristics such as family and birthday. While the characters actual stats are allocated in a way that is pretty much exactly how they will be allocated in the game itself and can be picked-up later when they enter the game.
As for the actual topic... mainly being able to create a character that is more powerful that the 'average character at character creation' perhaps allow players to 'take out a loan on Progress Points' so to speak. Since this is a Free MMORPG (and therefore you can't enter something like a way to spend RL dollers to get in-game goods) then it would probably work out so that at character creation you can get the extra points needed to level up your needed skills (such as get 1000 more PP to level your vetran swordsmans sword combat to 30 or 80 or whatever) but during the game you have a negative PP total and you have to work off that deficite plus interest before you can level up your character any more.
For example, player wants a swordsman with lvl 30 sword combat. They take out a PP loan for say 1000 PP and can get that lvl at startup. However, after startup they have -1500 PP (the origional deficite plus some interest or whatever, to make people think twice about creating a high lvl character). So the new character can be l33t at the beginning but will be hampered for some time, and after they paid their debt can level up as normal. This would make it so there aren't 2 different classes of player characters 'RPers' and 'Levelers' but just some would have Progress debts to work off before they can level again.
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Though another way to go would be to just provide more ways for people to impove their characters. I hear that D&D has a way for people to assign experience to people for roleplaying their characters properly. I suppose if there was a reliable way to reward role-players with XP for doing things then that could help a bit. Player-created quests that reward XP could potentially help with this and at the very least could make PowerLeveling more interesting. Heh, I would rather do some fun quests with other players (who don't break down like our NPCs) then sit around killing the same rouge all day if I could do that and still strengthen my char at the same time.
But anyway, as I said before I'm really more concerend with stats and such and don't do much in the way or RPing. Take my ideas however you will, and hopefully you will have better ones than I do.
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I actually agree in part with your post, Shadow. I would not be opposed to this system. But purists (PL and RP) would cry about having to level and not geting anything to show for it -right now-.
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I actually agree in part with your post, Shadow. I would not be opposed to this system. But purists (PL and RP) would cry about having to level and not geting anything to show for it -right now-.
Yeah, I can believe that with the ability to 'borrow XP' to pay off later. Though it might not be exactly a total "all your XP goes to paying off your debt" thing. Could be where something like half or two thirds of incoming XP is 'taxed' to fill the debt. Net effect is it gets harder to lvl up until the debt is paid, though having a pecentage 'tax' would probably help keep people interested.
But actually, there would be no real reason to complain the way I see it. Suppose I start out as a person with 0 metallurgy skill and want to reach lvl 10 in game. I have to gain all the necessary XP to train, have to get all the money to pay for it (I have no idea how much I actually need... those sneaky NPCs seem to just yank it out of my pocket while I'm distracted with the lesson... :thumbdown:) then I have to get several hundred iron ores to melt and then if I'm lucky someone with the skill to make irion ingots to help me out... its quite a hassle.
On the other hand, if I could bypass that and just say "I already am at lvl 5 so I can make iron ingots if I want" even if I have to pay off a debt in XP to get that option its probably worth it... just to avoid the hassle of starting out.
On a sort of related note:
I did a report on Goldfarming and paid Leveling in my English class. Its about how some people will pay real money just so they don't have to go through the hassle and time to get a decent character or equipment. I think the problem you address here is related to that. If we can find a decent way for people to get the character they want without 'cheating' out those who had to work to attain the same relative skill level, it could really help make PlaneShift stand out from other MMORPGs.
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roleplaying...with all the different views on it I have seen, it sounds like a vague concept...
I am probably wrong - At least in the words I use to express it, but no everyone is fluent in english - but this is how I see things.
There are various ways to play the game and call it roleplaying because you play a role. The differences are in the ways you play the role and the roles you choose. I'll focus on 2 ways to play roles:
- Pretending:
You create a character with an history and motivations. You explore the limitations and possibilities of his beliefs and moods.
You can one day play the role of a king and the day after play a farmer character. To do this you need to have a char creation able to instantly create a king or a strong warrior skilled in training. You play once a poor orphan girl, the day after a brute warrior, and the day after a sneaking thief. The goal is to experiment various situations, live various lives, test the consequencies of different choices in the same settings.
--I also mentioned others ways to pretend things happening in you role are the only ones real for you in another controversary thread : Pretending you burn the tavern and ignore everyone playing the role of a customer (a.k.a. paralell role playing)--
- Role playing the level way
"Every men are created equals..."
You start your character at the bottom level of the society. With a story reflecting your youth. You have to grow, learn and progress depending on your choices. You can become a farmer or claim the title of king. Whatever your goal is, you have to chose your path to reach it. You can decide to aim. Goals and paths are defined in RPGs as alignments (I miss Draklar to flame me for saying this). Right now you can max up all stats, but the idea of the variety of skills is to allow various choices of the ones to raise and the ones to neglect.
In this case, the purpose is to live an interactive saga. Play the char from birth to death and maybe beyond.
The reason roleplaying games are using leveling, alignments and stats raising is that they rely on the fact you use the second way to play your role.
IMO roleplaying is not only playing a role, it's evolving in an imaginary world.
Pretending is "playing a role", but it's not roleplaying. (maybe does it clarify what Easton quoted from me in his signature)
Exemples of pretending: (bad exemples on purpose, in order to point its dangers, but seen ingame)
A new char spawns at the plaza and pretends to be ruler of the world, tax collector, Orctach, ... Thus he imposes his role to the virtual world.
A char burns Kada's tavern and ignores everyone playing the role of a customer. (a.k.a parallel RPing)
In general "spawning" a grown up char breaks the continuity of the game world. And from what I remember, creating a "persistent world" is one of PS goals. Persistent means that what is done by one char day 1 don't have to be ignored by another spawned on day 2.
When you create a char, not only does he arrive in a world based on the "settings" but also populated by people who existed before it.
You might oppose that you are able to spawn a char with a background story ready to interract with pple you met the day before under another ID. But can everyone do it? How can the game define at char creation if you will play your role in a cooperation with others' virtual life or use your stats to impose your new role to the existing world?
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You are completely wrong in what you define as role playing vs pretending. It is just your opinion, as you state. Role playing is playing a role. It is becoming a character, whether that character is a fuddlebum farmboy, or a twenty year veteran of the Hydlaa Guard. It is not up to you to decide for everyone what role they will play.
Role playing is NOT leveling. Leveling can BE roleplaying, but not the other way around.
Let me define pretending. It is the practice of making up something that is not really there. In an RPG, that equates to pretending you have stats that you do not, or pretending you have a job you do not. Pretending is standing face to face with someone and typing out a battle, or a slap. Pretending IS burning down the tavern. None of that is seen, so it is in fact not real.
Roleplaying is acting upon things that actually do affect your character, such as attributes, stats, attacks, sickness, and even weather. Yes, leveling is grouped in here as well, but it is not the ONLY thing. In fact, it should be one of the most minor things focused on in a true RPG. If the game would support creating a fully developed character with stats and attributes, then yes, by god, that would be roleplaying. Is there leveling? Could be, could not be. That depends on the character you are playing. But it is NOT needed.
Right now, most people are pretending. More and more, roleplayers are IGNORING game features because they see them as NOT supporting true roleplaying. How many players actually RP by their stats? I am telling you for a fact that it is very few. What does that say about the game? In my opinion, is blatantly states that it is failing in its main purpose. If people have to pretend their way around things that their character would not normally do, SUCH as intensive training, there is something very wrong.
Your first example bleeds into the second. People are doing ALL of those things now. You are alos forcing a role on everyone with your 'starting at the bottom level of society'. You are forcing us to start as youths. You are forcing us to take the path of the leveler. Frankly, that path is considered as flawed.
Strip away the efforts of the community. Strip away the rules of the GMs. Strip away all the lives we have created that did not start as you say. Strip PS down, and just view it for its features, and projected features. It is nothing more than an empty game for leveling. There is nothing that makes the game more roleplaying than a first person shooter.
Some people have mistaken me for being against stats and leveling. I am not. I am, however, against being forced to go OUT of character to play the role I wish. Roleplaying should be fun, and based entirely on the stats and attributes of your character, not pretending. But how can that be if you are either: A. bored out of your mind doing something you do not thing your character would be doing. B. You role is not supported by your stats, and you have to spend endless hours getting there.
And it is a myth that every man is created equal. Forcing that into a game detracts for the realism, not adds to it. Everyone keeps whining that everything has to be fair and balanced. For what purpose? So that no one 'wins'? Think about that.
You 'roleplaying' is not the only way. It is not even the most chosen way. That is why people are pretending, and will continue to do so, no matter how many shiny new features you add. People are not roleplaying because of these features, they are roleplaying -despite- them.
You are confusing the purpose of this wish. It is not to pretend. You seem to thing if everyone can make a character with exactly the stats they want at 'spawn' then they will 'pretend' to suddenly be able to take over the world. How is that even relevant? Do you think just because a new player comes in with higher stats, they will be allowed to proclaim themselves on high as king, or impose his will on everyone? What the hell do you think we are? Stupid?
"Omgozorz! that N00b has way better stats than mine! I shud fall down and do what he says as my new king!"
"He has high stats on creation, therefore we must let him burn down the tavern"
Your entire point is based on things that would not happen. Someone trying to make themselves higher than the game allows would be laughed out of the plaza, just as they are now. Parallel RP would still happen, but would not become any more 'real' just because someone started with higher stats. That is completely ungrounded.
What you are implying is a form of elitism which I am against. You are basically saying that people's roles do not count until they do get to higher levels...then we should let them burn down the tavern.
Your examples are going to happen, and have, whether you can create higher stats or not. Then they will be ignored and forgotten. That is besides the point.
The last point you make is more than wrong, it is the opposite of how it truly feels. I question what continuity you are even talking about. People came and go all the time. Persistent means it is always on, and the greater story is always going, nothing more. It has nothing to do with what the individual players do. Unless you intend to start to punish evildoers for what they do one day, then forget on the next, your point is invalid.
Your argument that a new and fully developed character will start ruining everyone's world by suddenly appearing is completely false. The reason is, that ALL characters appear that way. Where did any of them come from? They did not just spawn at that point, did they? No, they came from somewhere, as would the developed characters. Many players say they were born and raised in Hydlaa. Does that ruin the continuity as well? No. It is up to other players to adapt, and take that in. OUR histories are not set in stone, and many people change them as they go. It is a requirement to be able to adapt in a game like this. the populations is -always- changing. That will never stop. There is a simple solution to your argument. As you log on as your new character, you see in large letters in the center of the screen “You dust off you cloths as you look upon <place> for the first time.” But that is not he only choice, just an example.
"Can everyone do it?"
Bluntly, why not? It is for the Devs to build the world. It is for us to fill it as we see fit. Don't like it? Then shut the server down and fill the game with NPCs that will do exactly as you program them, because real people never will.
As for my wish, it is valid, doable, and used by many other RPGs that are far deeper than PS is. The 'skill ladder' is the low man on the totem when it comes to roleplaying. In short, PS is very limited in its view of roleplaying.
As an example, I give you Krook. He came into PS as an old man. He was wise, very intelligent (ignoring the useless CC stats), and quite rude. He made many friends, despite being an old grump. He had a long history that no one else was part of. Did I break the continuity of the world with him by not leveling? No. People cried when he passed on in his sleep. He added to other character’s laves in ways that no leveling character could. He became as a grandfather figure to some of them. Your way of “RPing” would never have let Krook exist in the first place. So, I flat out state this: You are wrong, and PS’s limited view is wrong. Leveling is not the only way, it is just one way. Let there be others. Otherwise, people are just going to ‘pretend’ to have these higher levels to support their roleplaying anyways, just as most of us do now.
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Roleplaying is playing a role
Leveling is just a gamefeature needed not to get people wo be gods in day one. It's not roleplayin. Its a failsafe so RP isn't ruined by people who can't roleplay and to protect people from themselves who might be tempted to not roleplay otherwise
Dungeons and Dragons is one of the first tabletops that used this system and that is still around.
Do you start over with this game everytime you die? Some may actually do this but I think most don't have a level 1 character join a level 17 group. I also know most people who already played it several times aren't starting at level 1 anymore becuase although level 1 is good to get to know the game once you do it's no longer fun. So starting at a higher level when you have already played before like in the clone idea I think is a very good idea. There are both gamemechanic reasons and also RP reasons to do this. Already listed so wont make the whole list again ;)
The RP suggestion from Moon I like aswell. You already see variants of this in several games. Guildwars for example has two types of characters aswell so people can focus on what they want. I would however feel this is an option that should have to be unlocked somehow so the new people don't massively use it. If this is through a good quest system or through leveling or through GMmanaged events.. it's all possible.
but specially with things like the wipes it isnt realistic RPwise to have to restart everytime. Specially if you have already been roleplaying it.
I would however say you chose what you want and it's set NO LEVELING at all. Then you have a true character only used for roleplaying. Perhaps have the GMevents give you some bonusses for what your roleplayed but thats it.
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I think the basic problem is that each 'character' is essentially two characters. The role-paying character with the feelings and story and the game character witht the actual in-game stats and skills (I think Under the Moon pointed this out).
And those two can have probelms actually conforming with eachother. For example, the only way in-game for a person to get XP to train anything is to either kill monsters or to mine for ore. This pretty much prevents anybody who wants to either never kill animals (like a pacifist character) or someone who never wants to mine ore (like the wizend old wizard who studies books on ancient magic) from ever really being able to advance their skills without going out-of-character.
So, essentially the present sytem of leveling up skills is defective. If people want to do get access to better skills and ability they need to either kill monster for XP (which is boring) or mine up ore (which is even more boring and really stupid for that purpose since you get really low XP and in order to make use of the ore you have to take huge long walks on foot in and out of town).
If you want to encourage role-playing, find a way to actually reward role-playing in-game. I think pestilence's idea on eliminating leveling all together and replacing it with GM bonuse may have some actual appeal to it. Or have some way for people to award others with experience, possibly through character created quests or something.
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What I see primarily is this Path of the Roleplayer suggestion arises from a lack of many things to do in-game. As stated, you can either mine or kill to get something useful, and that's very limiting. But what no one seems to be bringing up is that we plan on having dozens upon dozens of more activities in the future that will allow a very wide variety of trades, jobs, and (better functioning) quests. The training system itself is bound to be adjusted, and you might have a whole new feel of the game entirely.
I don't like "temporary solutions" that may end up being removed when more is in place. It asks the dev team to take a time-out from working on tasks that are meant to actually progress the game, and it asks for several adjustments from the players themselves.
I feel that this suggestion is something that should be made when the game feels more complete - to see if perhaps later this dissatisfaction will diminish as the number of in-game activities grows and therefore allows characters greater flexibility.
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You mistake my meaning. You can put infinite new things in the game, but that will not change that we still have to go out of character to achieve the 'level' of character we wish to play. I do not mean it as a shortcut to a higher level. What I am saying is that some characters are older, more mature, or more skilled than Creation allows. Being forced to 'level' when you are playing a twenty year veteran of the army breaks the realism and 'continuity of the game, not adds to it.
This is not about adding features to play the game. It is about adding a way to roleplay the character you wish to. Some people do not wish to become a warrior, musician, or businessman. The wish to -be- one. Leveling kills these types of characters and disappoints the people that wish to play them.
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The very design of the game however is that you do not come in with an older character. You're not a veteran of any wars, you're not a forgotten government official, nor are you an ancient doctor. Your interesting history does not begin outside of the game and growing in your head - it is supposed to begin the moment you step into Yliakum, and grow inside the world. If such limitations seem unbearable to a few people, you're missing the point of the game and Talad's design for it. Your character growth and history comes from your interaction with the people inside Yliakum, and if you want to be a veteran of a war, you must become one - not already be one.
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Then, your game is limited in scope, and not for me.
Roleplaying is not leveling, but leveling can be roleplaying. The way it is now, leveling is the only way to roleplay using game mechanics. More and more players are not training at all because you are cutting out the way they play.
Truthfully, roleplaying is not even required to 'play' this game. But leveling is required to roleplay. It is not I that am missing the point of the game. It is the game that is missing the point of roleplaying.
Right now, I am doing my best to work around game mechanics and create something enjoyable for others.
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The way it is now, leveling is the only way to roleplay using game mechanics.
Emphasis mine. Doing the best you can in the meantime is exactly what we are asking. I don't think that players are stopping to train because we are "cutting" them out. A simpler reason could be that training right now only helps in killing or mining, which again brings me back to a low number of activities at the present time, and which is going to rise very much in the future.
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As I see it leveling should indeed be part of the game and I feel that atleast how I suggested it that leveling wouldn't be gone.
Most people would still chose to go with the normal character to level and the roleplayer would also be leveling of sorts but then with GMevents what in my eyes is a lot more realistic.
Ofcourse leveling through GM event will only accumalate to something if you have been roleplaying a long time, but it seems that atleast that way one has a clear path of the roleplayer that in my eyes is still missing even when I imagine things being added and smoothed over. The emphasis still seems to remain on leveling and not roleplaying.
*edit typo*
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The emphasise still seems to remain on leveling and not roleplaying.
Yes.
Now, later, it will not matter. The Path of the Leveler will -always- be the Path of the Leveler. Add new skills. Add new crafts. Take out killing completely. It will still be the same. You ARE cutting me out.
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So to roleplay you suddenly need to have a ready-made character, or else?
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So to roleplay you suddenly need to have a ready-made character, or else?
Not really sure where the "or else?" is coming from.
How is it less ready-made then the farmboy? You just start at a different point becuase for someone who has been roleplaying for years starting over with farmboy number 152 isn't good roleplaying anymore. Using the same starting point again and again and again is hardly realistic.
Also many roleplayers want to keep their characters true to the stats they have. They however don't want to level them after every wipe. Having a roleplaying character that gives them the stats they roleplay gives them the ability to stay true to the stats while roleplaying. This in my eyes would be a lot better then recommending people to just ignore the fact they really can't do anything looking at the stats. That really disconnects the roleplaying from the leveling instead of linking them.
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Using the wipe is hardly a good argument. Wipes aren't going to keep happening forever. The "or else" refers to Moon hinting that since he feels this game may not be for him, he'll hitchhike out sometime.
Again and again all I see is "I am limited now so implement this." People who play 4+ characters aren't the default, and they're not the majority who define how the game should be handled. Most often a player comes and bonds with 1-2 characters and sees him or her evolve within the game itself. Everyone is a beginner when they start and are meant to begin their character journey then, not before. No one has to be a "farmboy." There are plenty of other possibilities and explanations, and good roleplayers have no excuse not finding one.
In-game activities are limited. We have reached this conclusion over and over. But this will not remain, and you might be delightfully surprised in the near future and onwards.
The only true limit is the lack of the ability to come in with many stats and skills raised (although the char creation can already give you more than enough to begin), and I feel that this is fair. My personal opinion is that your character journey should begin and not just "continue" inside the game when you start playing.
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I completely agree with that, Pestilence. This way does not break any roleplay rules, or take away from roleplaying. It adds a new, and lacking, dimension.
My characters are all 'ready made'. I know who they are, and what they will do. Interacting with other people changes them, not learning new stats. But I would also like to play by those stats, which have to be ignored for the most part. Ask yourself this: Do YOU play by your exact stats? Does your character think back on every single kill, dug ore, or new sword needed to get the stats you do use to play? If the answer to any of the above is 'no' the game has failed you.
Or else? Bluntly, yes. Hinting? no. In time, being forced to play around the game, rather than with it will burn me out. My characters will all go home or die. Will that matter at all to the game? No. Not one bit. But then, is it the game itself that matters, or the people playing it?
I am done defending this. If it is against what the game stands for, then I will leave eventually, as will all the other players like me. Not a threat, just the way it is.
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In-game activities are limited. We have reached this conclusion over and over.
Well to be honost if noone is saying otherwise it's hardly a conclusion. And obviously using that is quite a discusion killer. Saying things like "you can't wish for that becuase you don't know what it will look like in the end" is also a discusionkiller.
I mean I have seen threads were you say you want people to wish for things more thought over and to think of it for how it looks like in the end
I feel Moon has done this. You might not agree with his view. You might not agree with my view, but to start using discusionkillers like that isn't fair to the effort Moon put in thinking it out.
Moon and I think this would add something to the game. Not just becuase of the wipes we are having right now, but becuase it would add something specificly targeting the people who roleplay here.
Personally I feel this is a good idea becuase it would add realism and becuase it would better link the stats with what is being roleplayed. It would also add several ways of how to experience PS. I don't see why PS would have to force all people in the same path.
Would I use it myself? Not very likely exept perhaps to remodel Meriner after a wipe seeing I'm not really playing him anymore but he is close to my heart still. But it's not about if I want it for myself. It's about if I think others should be able to do this if they enjoy the game this way and about if it would add to the game or not.
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What would it add to PS and what would it remove.
It would add the possibility for everyone to come with a full story that he had made up without even knowing if he could have actualy played it. We would have to meet people pretending on their first day that they fought a war we were in and where no such general nor private was seen.
So if you want a char with a long past without playing it, you will be limited to play hermits who trained in a locked cave. Otherwise each of your invented background needs a reason why your "old" char was never seen.
It would allow powelevelers to have raised stats without even leveling.
It would remove the possibility to raise a character when all higher ranks of the society are taken by newly spawned characters.
Raising a character, facing challenges will be meaningless when everyone will be able to pretend he faced and overcomed them.
Don't simply look at stats like the reward for powerleveler. Stats are a way for a roleplayer to extend over time the capabilities of his character, opening new doors and new discoveries.
To invent a life is fine, the goal is to play it.
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Now what on earth would a PL want to do that ?
It would allow powelevelers to have raised stats without even leveling.
Kind of defeats the point of power levelling dont you think ?
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We would have to meet people pretending on their first day that they fought a war we were in and where no such general nor private was seen..
The character we play are already fullgrown normally. People who already have a history. Following your logic we would have to start as babies and roleplay growing up. Why don't we do this? Becuase that isn't interesting and would highly frustrate most people.
In my first post in this thread I also said the roleplaying character in my opinon should be something that needs unlocking somehow. By impressing a GM in one of the event or by doing a series of quests that ensure knowledge of the setting. This would make it very unlikely for people who know nothing of settings to use it.
Also I don't see why powerlevelers would use it. If you are a powerleveler what fun is it to start a character you can't level?
So if you want a char with a long past without playing it, you will be limited to play hermits who trained in a locked cave. Otherwise each of your invented background needs a reason why your "old" char was never seen.
What? becuase someone has a few ranks higher the people are suddenly going to roleplay worse? I guess you haven't been ingame much becuase I can't even count the number of newbies who were playing an avatar of some unknown god without being leveled at all. Having someone think up a histroy for a new character (they can't even create before they have already played PS) I think can't get worse then that and will have those people act more like the stats they have.
To invent a life is fine, the goal is to play it.
The goal of roleplaying is to play a role. Why force people to start in the same one everytime?
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If all players start out as the young person new to the world, then I ask you this: Where are the adults? Where is the middle-aged banker down on his luck? Where is the retired soldier that has seen too much fighting in her life, and is trying to settle down? Where is the very old dwarf who has suffered all of his life so that others did not have to? Where is the grandmother who likes to sit in a park and tell stories to the bored?
Limiting to the leveling path does not add to roleplaying, it kills these characters. When you can tell me where they all went, without 'pretending' then, sir, I will bow down at your feet and agree with you.
"they are NPCs" is not a suitable answer.
Where are they?
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all chars are starting young, it doesn't mean they don't grow up, on the contrary. Play your char long enough and you won't ask where elders are since you'll play one of them.
You keep saying that stats are only for PLs and you ask for raised ones. Where did the money of the middle-aged baker go if he never even try to gather his first tria?
And for the aging of chars there are already threads.
To those who don't see why PLs would starts with full stats, it's that you never wondered why PLs were leveling using cheats and any mean in order not to RP but to have higher stats than others. If they wan't to show off, give them the oportunity to start at the top so they don't have to care for lvling. But isn't it what you are asking for?
Growing a character does not limit it, it enhanches the his history by confronting his dreams to the reality. A grown char is not limited to what he pretends to be but to what he managed to achieve, depending on the victories and defeats that forged his personality.
A char pretending he achieved anything without even trying for real is a void dreamer. In the end you don't play the role of the char, you play the role of an actor who dreamed his past. So, you can decide to call it acting and not roleplaying. You can use a dictionary to oppose me that acting is playing a role. But it's not playing the game.
Allow me to quote a song.
...
From the point of ignition
To the final drive
The point of the journey is not to arrive
anything can happen
Basic temperamental filters on our eyes
Alter our perceptions
Lenses polarize
Alternating currents force a show of hands
Rational responses force a change of plans
anything can happen
...
It's not about RPing, it's about life. If you want to call RPing living a virtual life in a virtual world you have to accept the changes that can occur in you plans when confronted to the reality of your interactions with the world and enjoy the journey with all the people traveling at your side.
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Did you read our first posts Hadfael? Becuase this is the second post you are pointing at something we are not saying.
The roleplay character in my opinion needs to be unlocked. So new players wouldn't be able to start one.
We do not say stats mean only something to powerlevelers. Quite the contrary we are saying stats SHOULD mean something to roleplayers. This proposal is to give the roleplayers a way to play an ordinarybaker or an ordinary soldier who indeed have a past, but everyone playing the game already has one and uses their past to motivate their actions already
The roleplaying character wouldn't be a jumpingboard for levelers becuase after creation there would not be any leveling
We are not proposing to give someone full stats. We are proposing to give someone more stats then one gets from creation, but if you look at the examples already given the highest we proposed was more like rank 30 out of 80. After wich again it's locked and not possible to train so you can't play a godtype person
You also keep saying we want this becuase we want to arive somewhere. This might be true for some people who would use it but thats not the reason moon or I would use it nor the majority who would use it in my opinion. The reason is to have a different role to play.
Again why is it somehow roleplaying to start at one point and pretending if you start at another? Why is this one point that is as cliche as possible the point you have to start appointed by god himself? Why isn't it playing the game if the game is made that you can start at different point roleplaying wise aswell?
And last I have seen people advice roleplayers to just IGNORE the stats. How is that better then adding a feature like this? How many godRPs will we get if roleplayers take this advice instead?
It's not about RPing
How flawed can you get in your logic?
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It's not about RPing
How flawed can you get in your logic?
The quote...taken from a text that was talking about life was not writen about RPing.
RP=virtual life
life=a journey
RP=virtual journey
journey=anything can happen
anything can != what you expect did
RP != what you expect did happen in your virtual journey
fixed stas=fixed capabilities
fixed stats=static role != evolution
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Those are your opinions, not fact. There is absolutely nothing wrong with playing a character with fixed 'capabilities'.
And no, you can not play the role of an old character when you start out as young. Are the players you ‘grew up with’ just supposed to pretend you are old now, when they are still RPing that they are young? That is idiotic. Time flows that same for all characters, whether they start the game as 20 years olds, or 100 year olds. You can not change that just because you ‘leveled’. Your answer is invalid. Please try again. Where are they?
As to the ‘journey’, I agree with Pestilence on this. The journey is NOT at an end just because you are older. Role playing is playing a role, no matter what it is. I have RPed a book ingame already. That is a role, therefore it is roleplaying. Roleplaying is not Evolution. Roleplaying is not leveling. Those can BE a form of roleplaying, but not the ONLY definition. Widen your view.