PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kahan Rantath on October 30, 2006, 01:29:34 pm
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Has anyone thought of actually forming a proper government in Yliakum (constituition, actual players as the government) in order to simulate a more realistic place. Things like the Ochtarcs could be more interactive and the people could have a say, laws passed and stuff like that.
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Don't worry. Soon enough the Dark Empire will have full control over Yliakum! :)
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actually more often then you might think. a few things were ried a while ago. didn't go very well.
but soon(tm) we'll have one.
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Neh this is definately a someday(tm)
Problem with playergorverment atm is the lack of actual power. People tend to ignore what they don't like.
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Amen to that. (Former head of attempted player Law Enforcement Agency.)
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There have been a number of guilds trying to roleplay as city guards. There have been a few players who have tried to be political leaders, including the Octarch. None of these attempts were successful, and for good reason. Criminals have no way to commit crimes, and city guards have no way to stop criminals.
There will be political leaders, eventually. But it will be the devs who orchestrate it, not the players. It needs to be done in a way that the player base will accept and in a way that fits into the game mechanics and setting.
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hmm don't agree that all attempts have failed, but the bigger ones like the octarch are definately not working becuase people don't exept those people being te octarch.
Many of the RP problems would already be solved if one would be octarch through official means. Specially something like a cityguard would work. Seen someone playing one quite convincing, but it takes a good roleplayer and a lot of effort. The same as if you want to play an evil person and that is why just as with evil characters people often don't find the reward high enough to put so much in it.
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Unfortunatetly Garile, there are a lot of miserable RPers out there who don't empower the so-called "guard". Since it's RP, you really need the others to cooperate, but most of the "evil" RPers that I've seen have been pretty lousy.
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You would really, really, really need the community to cooperate with you for things like this. I think it would be really fun and cool to have a government system, and have different kinds of branches, chain of command, etc.
I'm up for it.
K.S.
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Me and unar had a LOOOONG discussion about this and it comes down to two things:
Directed Roleplay
&
Free Roleplay
I will start off by saying your form of Government would harbor a GREAT Roleplaying environment. It would be much better than we have now.
It is directed, it has rules, and it would allow a better flow for the game in general.
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Here's where i disagree:
This government you speak of would solve alot of Roleplaying problems where people roles conflict with one another, but it would also lead to power struggles.
If one person is given HEAD judge of Yliakum, that means no one else may RP this person.
RIght now, that isn't the case, you can RP whoever you want, with some restrictions, such as God RP or Octarch. (Kingly positions, basically)
Now how would you decide who gets the right to get these positions? What if 2 people want to be Heads of Ylaikum's army?
It leads to HUGE power struggles, problems, and headaches.
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Solution:
The solution to this, and the middle ground would be this, we vote for those people as a community.
Basically a voting day is chosen and people who have contesting Roles will be running for thier office.
A majority vote would need to be counted, maybe over a 3 day period, and then the server would decide who wins that role.
This would allow a very directed form of Roleplay and would resolve Role conflicts.
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The Problem:
Currently Planeshift doesn't have a Voting system built in. The only way to truly do this is to allow the players to vote and right now we have no way to count each ballot.
For this to happen Planeshift's Devs would need to code a type of Voting Booth that people would go into to cast their votes.
Another problem is Abuse, what if someone finds a way to abuse this system through hacks or bugs and gives the win to their party? Again the devs would address that.
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Final analysis:
I think the Government idea has been thought over many times over, and i think everyone knows how much of a benefit it would be to the Roleplaying community.
The problem is the players currently have no power to do any of this themselves.
In order for this to become a reality we need it to be a game mechanic, and to do that we need the help of the Devs.
So if the devs see this thread, love the idea, and decide to incorporate voting, than i can guarentee that we will have a better Roleplaying experience and environment.
I hope this happens and i am a proponent of this idea, but the theme of this post would be, "we can't do this without Developer intervention".
If the devs hop on than I can say it would be a huge win for Roleplaying \\o//
~~Datruth
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I think that each city should have it's own government. Kind of like city-states, cities that are independent from eachother and kind of like their own country. Each city would have a different leader, different councils, etc. That way each city could choose to go to war with eachother (for whatever reason), control trade that goes in and out, protect city gates, and other things like that. This would also encourage the roles of merchants, spies, soldiers, etc.
And for the voting system, I'm sure that the developers could have a hack proof voting system where you can only vote once per account.
K.S.
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We need game mechanics to back up the in game roleplaying. Plain and simple.
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I think that each city should have it's own government. Kind of like city-states, cities that are independent from eachother and kind of like their own country. Each city would have a different leader, different councils, etc. That way each city could choose to go to war with eachother (for whatever reason), control trade that goes in and out, protect city gates, and other things like that. This would also encourage the roles of merchants, spies, soldiers, etc.
And for the voting system, I'm sure that the developers could have a hack proof voting system where you can only vote once per account.
K.S.
Great idea for the seperate governments, i like it.
I also like races fighting each other and different cities going to war, but sadly the Devs have said they don't want our races fighting each other, only the monsters :(.
Maybe they'll change their minds, till then though, we'll just have to wait for an ulber uprising or something like that.
~~Datruth
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A point that people often miss is that there is not nearly enough content in-game right now to allow any playable government. We have two unfinished towns, an empty fortress, and a bunch of wilderness. For governmental purposes, it's nothing. Even if you get yourself a voting system and even if you get the entire community to agree to artificial rules, at the end of the day some "government official" will be sitting in Kada's going "...well now what."
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Even if you get yourself a voting system and even if you get the entire community to agree to artificial rules, at the end of the day some "government official" will be sitting in Kada's going "...well now what."
Well, I'm already doing that, so vote for me!
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A point that people often miss is that there is not nearly enough content in-game right now to allow any playable government. We have two unfinished towns, an empty fortress, and a bunch of wilderness. For governmental purposes, it's nothing. Even if you get yourself a voting system and even if you get the entire community to agree to artificial rules, at the end of the day some "government official" will be sitting in Kada's going "...well now what."
Lol, i'd have to say, in this case, you don't know what you're talking about. :whistling: ;D
There are soo many RP problems and cases that occur each day that i think we're getting to the point where a government will be necessary.
And our Physical environment may be smaller than it should be, but Roleplaying is still in full swing.
I can't name how many times Elemental light wanted to go after murderers but we couldn't because they weren't convicted in a trial, or even sentanced.
All we had to go on was the supposed words of others and sometimes people lie so that doesn't help.
If this were implemented, the judges wouldn't be bored. It's a plain difference of opinion right now, but if you go ingame you'll see this tilts in my favor and you'll see the need for some sort of judicial system.
~~Datruth
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Except that there are no game mechanics in game that would give you the power to enforce your rulings. Everything would have to be volountary, and that's leaves a very artificial taste in my mouth. And let's not even talk about trying to capture criminals. :|
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You don't understand what I am referring to, Datruth - and I am most certainly not talking about judges for trials. Even if I were, you'd need court houses, actual Yliakum laws to uphold, a working punishment system, and most of all trust, from everyone. There is no need to start working on something like this (code-wise) because our world really is tiny at the moment, and the need for judges is a lot smaller than what you make it out to be. Trust me, "judges" would get bored. And trust me, I do go in-game.
I was referring to higher positions - Vigesimi, Octarchs, etc. There isn't anything for them to control, nor even do. If we are to have a player government, then we need a way to enforce laws - and there are far too many things to take care of before that subject is touched (like working NPC paths for example, better quest systems, and similar).
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I don't think trust is all that important, to be honest. There are plenty of bad politicians and bad judges in the world. They key is to have support from the actual game, and to keep everything fun.
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You don't understand what I am referring to, Datruth - and I am most certainly not talking about judges for trials. Even if I were, you'd need court houses, actual Yliakum laws to uphold, a working punishment system, and most of all trust, from everyone. There is no need to start working on something like this (code-wise) because our world really is tiny at the moment, and the need for judges is a lot smaller than what you make it out to be. Trust me, "judges" would get bored. And trust me, I do go in-game.
I was referring to higher positions - Vigesimi, Octarchs, etc. There isn't anything for them to control, nor even do. If we are to have a player government, then we need a way to enforce laws - and there are far too many things to take care of before that subject is touched (like working NPC paths for example, better quest systems, and similar).
Oh okay, that is true, the kings would just sit on their thrown basically lol ;D
And ya, right now it's not an emergency to get them here, i'm saying they will be though.
As for quests, I don't want anymore personally, they haven't helped the game in my opninion and lack in soo much.
I'd just say work on making the map bigger and add all armors.
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Oh and zanzibar, i know what you mean, their would need to be a way to enforce these rulings.
I'm sure they'd find a way of doing that. But good point, they'd need to be enforcable some how.
~~Datruth
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As for quests, I don't want anymore personally, they haven't helped the game in my opninion and lack in soo much.
That's precisely what we're trying to fix. Saying "This isn't good right now so don't work on it" is rather amusing (http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7151/pleasedhc3.gif)
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As for quests, I don't want anymore personally, they haven't helped the game in my opninion and lack in soo much.
That's precisely what we're trying to fix. Saying "This isn't good right now so don't work on it" is rather amusing (http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7151/pleasedhc3.gif)
Lol i'm sorry about that, i know it takes a bit of work to fix the Quest mechanics.
I just went and said forget them lol, i know that's a little messed up of me.
Your work won't be in vein though, if you can fix them than that would be wonderfull, i'm just saying you might wanna focus your attention elsewhere. ;)
Keep working hard though karyuu :)
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@datruth: An in game voting system won't help much if you want reality.
1. everyone can make an alt and vote for whoever they'd like as octarch, themself
2. to prevent this you'd need to make a "You have to be in game for a week before you can vote"
3. this will create reality problems in the fictional world they live in "Why can't I vote... I've been here all my life and I'm 5 years old with a long beard:"
there are of course other solutions, some that could be quite... a mess. People could have been send a confirmation code with a mail they'd had to type to vote.
@Krale: Negative... there already is a government background and settings (http://www.planeshift.it/setting_government.html) ;). A suggestion to it though belongs in the wish list (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?board=11.0)
If this suggestion would be taken though it'd need some rewriting of the current settings... maybe the vigesimi could be some kind of "mayors" or "council" for a city.
I remember the time where a friend tried playing an octarch... she just got bashed by players, I think it was quite fun to be a part of.
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Lol i'm sorry about that, i know it takes a bit of work to fix the Quest mechanics.
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Keep working hard though karyuu :)
1) Coax the wild Karyuu with muffins into the back of a van. 2) Take it and put it in an unused well in a basement. 3)Tell it to make more character skins, or else it gets the hose again.
Problems solved.
And for the ontopicness part of my post.
From a developement stand point, I would think that it would be one of the last parts of the game mechanics to be added, simply becuase it relies on all the other game mechanics to function properly. Case in point, you can't punish someone for killing another player in a duel when the option isn't in game to allow a duel without killing each other. (sure there's yield, but by the time it can take to type out /yield, the character is probably already dead at that point.) It's like building a structure from the top down, rather than from the bottom up. Just doesn't quite work.
I do look forward to player run governments, but right now, there are other things to work on before that part of the game can even begun to be built.
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@datruth: An in game voting system won't help much if you want reality.
1. everyone can make an alt and vote for whoever they'd like as octarch, themself
2. to prevent this you'd need to make a "You have to be in game for a week before you can vote"
3. this will create reality problems in the fictional world they live in "Why can't I vote... I've been here all my life and I'm 5 years old with a long beard:"
there are of course other solutions, some that could be quite... a mess. People could have been send a confirmation code with a mail they'd had to type to vote.
Your making a Mountain out of an Anthill.
It's not that hard. You vote if you've been in the game 1 week like you've mentioned.
If you made an alt, it wouldn't be able to vote because voting would be done by then.
And no one would go into the trouble of making 100 email accounts.
It's not that hard of a thing to work out lol.
But i guess i know what you all mean, finish the game and then implement government.
I'll have grandkids by then though lol ;D
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I can see there are loads of problems with this system. So I think this would be a great thing to be added into a future client. (You know, voting, police force)
What would be good is the ochtarcs and stuff have special game modifing powers, such as law passing if there is a vote between them and things.
Any of the Planeshift Team reading this??? :beta:
And that is a lot of replies for a post I started yesterday
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First the amusing part of this thread...
Isn't it amusing to have the one suggesting ingame regulation unable to respect forums regulations when posting?
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=22698.msg273552#msg273552
Now, about votes...
Democracy is not the only political system that existed in RL history. In fact, I did not see many guilds with democratic decisions in their Constitution.
But let's suppose Yliakum allows polls. Who will be allowed to vote?
date of char creation? Create a char today, vote later. When creating a char you want to promote faster, you only have to create ghost accounts with ghost chars and ask your allies to do the same. Phatom electors are realistic (it happens IRL) but not really meaningful. and talking about real life, why do you think there is usualy a minimum age to vote? no only because vote bulletins are hard to read, but because it is better to rely on age to ensure a reasonable maturity of electors. Not everyone is able to RP the maturity of a 120yo man. At least not the majority of the ones who tried. No matter how hard they tried.
online time? the server does not kick idle characters. It is easy to score hours without doing enything.
If you give some (elected?) people the power to make regulations, is it safe to have the same people carry out the executive power? There are few political systems were you can be judge, jury and executor at the same time.
And in this release there are little ways to actualy execute a sentence since even a sentence of death is a small punishment that declining challenges can easely prevent. It's actualy a great source of unresolved-unresovable conflicts.
It does not mean that there is nothing that can be done. Even now the community can accept some behaviours and reject others. Being an outcast is fine when you only think about leveling and collecting money...but to join the community you have to agree on some social regulations. Anyway, there will always be rebelion, not only because some are dreaming of being IC the bad guy they can't be IRL, but also because the age/maturity of the average computer games player.
Everyone with a possible technical implementation making it possible to establish a medieval hierarchy inside PS. With a way to allow some punishing without allowing power abuses. Everyone with such ideas is welcome to post them in the whislist.
For my part, as I did in another thread, I strongly encourage Yliakum citizens to take their fate in their hands instead on relying too much on ethereal beings watching from the skies. Those creatures, if ever they exist, won't interfere unless someone/something is a real nuisance to your everyday life. To those you can send your prayers [petitions].
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lol, ohh, so your point being no government is better than a government.
Great answer lol :whistling:
And no one in this thread said that people would be the legislative and executors of the laws.
Who said that? Where did you get that from?
Who does that?
I think you're just poking at it with a stick and your alternative is faulty, no government.
Again, Making a government in Yliakum would reciieve many more benifits than create conflicts.
That's obvious and if you don't think that, than i'd like you to type that in right now, go ahead, next post, say it in clear english.
I, hadfael, feel that no government in Ylaikum is better than a government.
You won't type that and if you do be prepared for the coming consequence.
~~Datruth
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hmm democratic elections. Something we like but I doubt it fits in midevil kind of times.
Wouldn't start with the octarchs either. Think you would have to start with simple things. Like a cityguard that players can join, but the leaders are still NPCs.
Perhaps have a few players judges who RP sentencing and after that they can allow cityguards to kill the person in question by setting that person to auto PvP to the guards.
Sure its still a first step and you need to finetune it, but isn't something better then nothing? Aren't we testers? Aren't we supposed to test these things out? The reason it isn't fully complete shouldn't be a reason in my eyes not to do it. In fact it would give the community something real to test and think about how it would work best.
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There's little to talk about this topic at the moment, as Government hasn't been implemented yet. Election issues and such have been thought out already:
Vigesimi normally come from the Craft Guilds of each level, and their position is hereditary. Nevertheless is not too rare to find some high citizens that are elected thanks to people acclamation, taking place of Vigesimi that are dead, that are judged inept or that are found to be guilty of thievery.
During these short meetings the members of the External Circle can elect a new Octarch if the previous is dead or too old. An Octarch can't be removed, nevertheless in some cases the Octarch was assassinated because it was too cruel, inept, dishonest, etc...
This means that when the government is implemented the devs, maybe along with the players, will choose which craft guild leaders will be elected. I believe I read it somewhere that not all Vigesimi (maybe only a few) will be players and the Octarch will be controlled by the team. So there you go. Less things to worry about.
Currently we can only improvise. The limited PvP comes in handy too: we can choose which people to include into our roleplay fights, and that is positive seeing that currently there are no rules that assure the players are doing things right. It goes well with our role as testers; this way we can concentrate on observing and reporting any flaws we stumble on as we roleplay with what is currently avaible, without silly distractions.
So, as players it is up to us to try and stick to the setting, as PS Team's current preocupations lie in other more urgent fields. That is our way of helping too. We should include in our roleplays the conscience of a government, and of other systems and parts of the setting until they are implemented. For our own good too; else we might feel a shock when the changes finally take place.
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There are already Vigesimis in game as NPCs.
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There are? That is great.
I don't know much NPCs besides Harnquist, Trasok and Veja. Most of them are useless and speaking to them cuts the atmosphere as they always reply the same things, in the same way to everyone. Also, Sangwa doesn't speak with lazy people who spend all day standing iddle. :P
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there is also an octarch... someone mentioned
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Here is a 'Pipe Dream'
Instead of a full govenmental system, we could have a Sherif, Marshal, Lord, or Sir type system. A max of 3 or 4 people elected (insert propper voting system here) to serve as the lawkeepers. There may be trials much like the ones in recent history, or if the Lawkeeper catches someone red handed, they may serve as Judge Jury and Exicutioner. How you ask :) well this is where the 'Dream' part comes in; the elected people are given partial GM abilities, thus being able to issue real punishment. Whatever the masses decied ahead of time as justafiable punishments for different crimes. Such as being confined to the DR for a week, when they try to escape the respawn near the Death Gardian. Maybe a fine of 1000 Tria will be taken from them, You get my point (I hope).
The elected term would only be for a short period of 2 - 3 months. This way there is no irreversable harm done by an unjust lawkeeper.
Thoughts ?
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@Laragorn: I think the dream system would be an effective installation of the system the devs already have planned.
there is also an octarch... someone mentioned
I haven't encountered such a NPC if that's the case. I haven't been in game much lately though, let alone "exploring".