Governement

[Datruth]

A point that people often miss is that there is not nearly enough content in-game right now to allow any playable government. We have two unfinished towns, an empty fortress, and a bunch of wilderness. For governmental purposes, it's nothing. Even if you get yourself a voting system and even if you get the entire community to agree to artificial rules, at the end of the day some "government official" will be sitting in Kada's going "...well now what."

Lol, i'd have to say, in this case, you don't know what you're talking about.

There are soo many RP problems and cases that occur each day that i think we're getting to the point where a government will be necessary.

And our Physical environment may be smaller than it should be, but Roleplaying is still in full swing.

I can't name how many times Elemental light wanted to go after murderers but we couldn't because they weren't convicted in a trial, or even sentanced.

All we had to go on was the supposed words of others and sometimes people lie so that doesn't help.

If this were implemented, the judges wouldn't be bored. It's a plain difference of opinion right now, but if you go ingame you'll see this tilts in my favor and you'll see the need for some sort of judicial system.

~~Datruth

[zanzibar]

...

Except that there are no game mechanics in game that would give you the power to enforce your rulings.  Everything would have to be volountary, and that's leaves a very artificial taste in my mouth.  And let's not even talk about trying to capture criminals. :|

[Karyuu]

You don't understand what I am referring to, Datruth - and I am most certainly not talking about judges for trials. Even if I were, you'd need court houses, actual Yliakum laws to uphold, a working punishment system, and most of all trust, from everyone. There is no need to start working on something like this (code-wise) because our world really is tiny at the moment, and the need for judges is a lot smaller than what you make it out to be. Trust me, "judges" would get bored. And trust me, I do go in-game.

I was referring to higher positions - Vigesimi, Octarchs, etc. There isn't anything for them to control, nor even do. If we are to have a player government, then we need a way to enforce laws - and there are far too many things to take care of before that subject is touched (like working NPC paths for example, better quest systems, and similar).

[zanzibar]

I don't think trust is all that important, to be honest.  There are plenty of bad politicians and bad judges in the world.  They key is to have support from the actual game, and to keep everything fun.

[Datruth]

You don't understand what I am referring to, Datruth - and I am most certainly not talking about judges for trials. Even if I were, you'd need court houses, actual Yliakum laws to uphold, a working punishment system, and most of all trust, from everyone. There is no need to start working on something like this (code-wise) because our world really is tiny at the moment, and the need for judges is a lot smaller than what you make it out to be. Trust me, "judges" would get bored. And trust me, I do go in-game.

I was referring to higher positions - Vigesimi, Octarchs, etc. There isn't anything for them to control, nor even do. If we are to have a player government, then we need a way to enforce laws - and there are far too many things to take care of before that subject is touched (like working NPC paths for example, better quest systems, and similar).

Oh okay, that is true, the kings would just sit on their thrown basically lol 

And ya, right now it's not an emergency to get them here, i'm saying they will be though.

As for quests, I don't want anymore personally, they haven't helped the game in my opninion and lack in soo much.

I'd just say work on making the map bigger and add all armors.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh and zanzibar, i know what you mean, their would need to be a way to enforce these rulings.

I'm sure they'd find a way of doing that. But good point, they'd need to be enforcable some how.

~~Datruth

[Karyuu]

As for quests, I don't want anymore personally, they haven't helped the game in my opninion and lack in soo much.

That's precisely what we're trying to fix. Saying "This isn't good right now so don't work on it" is rather amusing

[Datruth]

As for quests, I don't want anymore personally, they haven't helped the game in my opninion and lack in soo much.

That's precisely what we're trying to fix. Saying "This isn't good right now so don't work on it" is rather amusing

Lol i'm sorry about that, i know it takes a bit of work to fix the Quest mechanics.

I just went and said forget them lol, i know that's a little messed up of me.

Your work won't be in vein though, if you can fix them than that would be wonderfull, i'm just saying you might wanna focus your attention elsewhere.

Keep working hard though karyuu 

[Peacer]

@datruth: An in game voting system won't help much if you want reality.

1. everyone can make an alt and vote for whoever they'd like as octarch, themself

2. to prevent this you'd need to make a "You have to be in game for a week before you can vote"

3. this will create reality problems in the fictional world they live in "Why can't I vote... I've been here all my life and I'm 5 years old with a long beard:"


there are of course other solutions, some that could be quite... a mess. People could have been send a confirmation code with a mail they'd had to type to vote.

@Krale: Negative... there already is a government background and settings . A suggestion to it though belongs in the wish list

If this suggestion would be taken though it'd need some rewriting of the current settings... maybe the vigesimi could be some kind of "mayors" or "council" for a city.


I remember the time where a friend tried playing an octarch... she just got bashed by players, I think it was quite fun to be a part of.

[neko kyouran]

Lol i'm sorry about that, i know it takes a bit of work to fix the Quest mechanics.
....
Keep working hard though karyuu

1) Coax the wild Karyuu with muffins into the back of a van.  2) Take it and put it in an unused well in a basement.   3)Tell it to make more character skins, or else it gets the hose again.

Problems solved.

And for the ontopicness part of my post.

From a developement stand point, I would think that it would be one of the last parts of the game mechanics to be added, simply becuase it relies on all the other game mechanics to function properly.  Case in point, you can't punish someone for killing another player in a duel when the option isn't in game to allow a duel without killing each other.  (sure there's yield, but by the time it can take to type out /yield, the character is probably already dead at that point.)  It's like building a structure from the top down, rather than from the bottom up.  Just doesn't quite work.

I do look forward to player run governments, but right now, there are other things to work on before that part of the game can even begun to be built.

[Datruth]

@datruth: An in game voting system won't help much if you want reality.

1. everyone can make an alt and vote for whoever they'd like as octarch, themself

2. to prevent this you'd need to make a "You have to be in game for a week before you can vote"

3. this will create reality problems in the fictional world they live in "Why can't I vote... I've been here all my life and I'm 5 years old with a long beard:"


there are of course other solutions, some that could be quite... a mess. People could have been send a confirmation code with a mail they'd had to type to vote.

Your making a Mountain out of an Anthill.

It's not that hard. You vote if you've been in the game 1 week like you've mentioned.

If you made an alt, it wouldn't be able to vote because voting would be done by then.

And no one would go into the trouble of making 100 email accounts.


It's not that hard of a thing to work out lol.

But i guess i know what you all mean, finish the game and then implement government.

I'll have grandkids by then though lol

[Kahan Rantath]

I can see there are loads of problems with this system. So I think this would be a great thing to be added into a future client. (You know, voting, police force)
What would be good is the ochtarcs and stuff have special game modifing powers, such as law passing if there is a vote between them and things.

Any of the Planeshift Team reading this???

And that is a lot of replies for a post I started yesterday

[Hadfael]

First the amusing part of this thread...
Isn't it amusing to have the one suggesting ingame regulation unable to respect forums regulations when posting?
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=22698.msg273552#msg273552

Now, about votes...
Democracy is not the only political system that existed in RL history. In fact, I did not see many guilds with democratic decisions in their Constitution.
But let's suppose Yliakum allows polls. Who will be allowed to vote?
date of char creation? Create a char today, vote later. When creating a char you want to promote faster, you only have to create ghost accounts with ghost chars and ask your allies to do the same. Phatom electors are realistic (it happens IRL) but not really meaningful. and talking about real life, why do you think there is usualy a minimum age to vote? no only because vote bulletins are hard to read, but because it is better to rely on age to ensure a reasonable maturity of electors. Not everyone is able to RP the maturity of a 120yo man. At least not the majority of the ones who tried. No matter how hard they tried.
online time? the server does not kick idle characters. It is easy to score hours without doing enything.

If you give some (elected?) people the power to make regulations, is it safe to have the same people carry out the executive power? There are few political systems were you can be judge, jury and executor at the same time.
And in this release there are little ways to actualy execute a sentence since even a sentence of death is a small punishment that declining challenges can easely prevent. It's actualy a great source of unresolved-unresovable conflicts.
It does not mean that there is nothing that can be done. Even now the community can accept some behaviours and reject  others. Being an outcast is fine when you only think about leveling and collecting money...but to join the community you have to agree on some social regulations. Anyway, there will always be rebelion, not only because some are dreaming of being IC the bad guy they can't be IRL, but also because the age/maturity of the average computer games player.

Everyone with a possible technical implementation making it possible to establish a medieval hierarchy inside PS. With a way to allow some punishing without allowing power abuses. Everyone with such ideas is welcome to post them in the whislist.
For my part, as I did in another thread, I strongly encourage Yliakum citizens to take their fate in their hands instead on relying too much on ethereal beings watching from the skies. Those creatures, if ever they exist, won't interfere unless someone/something is a real nuisance to your everyday life. To those you can send your prayers [petitions].

[Datruth]

lol, ohh, so your point being no government is better than a government.

Great answer lol

And no one in this thread said that people would be the legislative and executors of the laws.

Who said that? Where did you get that from?

Who does that?

I think you're just poking at it with a stick and your alternative is faulty, no government.

Again, Making a government in Yliakum would reciieve many more benifits than create conflicts.

That's obvious and if you don't think that, than i'd like you to type that in right now, go ahead, next post, say it in clear english.

I, hadfael, feel that no government in Ylaikum is better than a government.

You won't type that and if you do be prepared for the coming consequence.

~~Datruth

[Garile]

hmm democratic elections. Something we like but I doubt it fits in midevil kind of times.

Wouldn't start with the octarchs either. Think you would have to start with simple things. Like a cityguard that players can join, but the leaders are still NPCs.

Perhaps have a few players judges who RP sentencing and after that they can allow cityguards to kill the person in question by setting that person to auto PvP to the guards.

Sure its still a first step and you need to finetune it, but isn't something better then nothing? Aren't we testers? Aren't we supposed to test these things out? The reason it isn't fully complete shouldn't be a reason in my eyes not to do it. In fact it would give the community something real to test and think about how it would work best.

[Sangwa]

There's little to talk about this topic at the moment, as Government hasn't been implemented yet. Election issues and such have been thought out already:

Vigesimi normally come from the Craft Guilds of each level, and their position is hereditary. Nevertheless is not too rare to find some high citizens that are elected thanks to people acclamation, taking place of Vigesimi that are dead, that are judged inept or that are found to be guilty of thievery.

During these short meetings the members of the External Circle can elect a new Octarch if the previous is dead or too old. An Octarch can't be removed, nevertheless in some cases the Octarch was assassinated because it was too cruel, inept, dishonest, etc...

This means that when the government is implemented the devs, maybe along with the players, will choose which craft guild leaders will be elected. I believe I read it somewhere that not all Vigesimi (maybe only a few) will be players and the Octarch will be controlled by the team. So there you go. Less things to worry about.

Currently we can only improvise. The limited PvP comes in handy too: we can choose which people to include into our roleplay fights, and that is positive seeing that currently there are no rules that assure the players are doing things right. It goes well with our role as testers; this way we can concentrate on observing and reporting any flaws we stumble on as we roleplay with what is currently avaible, without silly distractions.
So, as players it is up to us to try and stick to the setting, as PS Team's current preocupations lie in other more urgent fields. That is our way of helping too. We should include in our roleplays the conscience of a government, and of other systems and parts of the setting until they are implemented. For our own good too; else we might feel a shock when the changes finally take place.