PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: bilbous on November 02, 2006, 05:59:24 am

Title: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 02, 2006, 05:59:24 am: What are peoples opinions about old players role-playing inexperience with the game when starting new characters?

My opinion is that it is inappropriate to pretend to be unfamiliar with the setting and basic gameplay but proper not to "know" other peoples characters. I think that asking people about the npc's and landmarks particularly in the town where you spawn is wrong because it is presumably your home town within the context of the setting. Asking about the game controls that you know very well is wrong because it is completely out of context.

This is my opinion and I am not suggesting this should be the rule. Also it is purely hypothetical.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Karyuu on November 02, 2006, 06:07:33 am: Asking about game controls is OOC, and there's no reason old players should be doing this except for amusement - however short and unusual.

However, I don't see anything wrong about asking for directions as a "new character," nor asking questions about your spawn-town. Just because you spawn there doesn't have to mean that this is where your character is born. Although if you roleplay that this is indeed your birth-town and you're a player who has been around for a while and understands more than your average newbie does, it makes no sense at all and I can't begin to imagine why they would do that.

Unless of course it's all an effort to not be recognized as [playername].
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 02, 2006, 06:15:45 am: I agree. An above-average roleplayer would perhaps even allow his character to "know" some different people. I mean, technically speaking he wasn't born yesterday. Pardon the pun. However, I would advise all players creating a new character to retain their OOC knowledge, but not their IC.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 02, 2006, 06:22:01 am: I'll agree with the above comments.

When I have a character, I try to keep in mind what that character knows and doesn't know. My character won't know about things that have been talked about on the forums, including any roleplays that my character hasn't been involved in or told about. If a character is new to the city, he won't know the local land marks -- or the other characters around.

In the distant past, I did have alts that I used purely as spies. In some cases, I would pretend not to understand the game mechanics or the controls in order to convince others in a very OOC way that I was truly a new player. That was inappropriate however, as is the whole idea of spy-alts as it is generally practiced. I wasn't aware that this had become a practice common enough to talk about on the forums though?
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 02, 2006, 06:30:27 am: Quote from: zanzibar on November 02, 2006, 06:22:01 am
I wasn't aware that this had become a practice common enough to talk about on the forums though?
We were bored. So sue us. :P
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 02, 2006, 08:22:40 am: To me there is nothing that says "I've never played before, this is the first time ever I have logged into the game." Therefor there seems no need to go around asking people how to make money, where this is or that because an unfamilar name is almost enough to mark you as new. As far as the npc's goes you can't really "know" them in the way of having conversations. As for the players there are some friendly players that will talk to unfamiliar faces to try and welcome them to the game. They have limited time for this and I see no reason not to let them know you are familliar with the game so that they can direct their time resources to helping people who really need it. This is not to say you should not have introductory type conversations with people but they might serve you better talking about the local luminaries--notable characters--rather than static npc's and setting details. That way when come across another character you have a conversation starter.

For example "Hi bilbous, I was talking to Janner and he said you had an interesting theory about the origin of the Kran Species. My name is Iky would you like to tell me about it?" I might not be particularly notable and Janner might never say any such thing about me but you get the idea. I think one can assume that typed conversations are merely shortcuts to what the verbal conversation would be so that if, per the example, Janner told Iky about bilbous, some means of identifying him would be implicit to the discussion and could be left out because typing takes longer than talking.

It just seems to me that you can waste time relearning the setting or you can get on with powerleveling or integrating yourself into the RP scene or both. I suppose it could be seen to be part of integrating yourself into the RP scene but you will get included into the current affairs quicker if you assume the basics.

Whenever my D&D character died permanently and I had to roll up a new one I just joined the party and went on. Sometimes there was some introductory prelude but for the most part is was "Let's get to the meat of the adventure as fast as we can. That is what we are here for!"

I suppose wrong was not the proper word to use. I don't mean we should shame anyone who feels this is the way to go, which appears to be the majority of the responders. I just don't see how it helps.

As far as common practice goes, I can't say but there always seems to be new players around and if they all are really new that is a very good thing. I do not have any statistics about how many actual new players Planeshift attracts. I do know I have three accounts even though I mostly only play the one character. I don't think I am alone in having more than one account and I really should take out one or other of my alts for a spin but I prefer playing the character that is known. Perhaps when bilbous has nothing more to learn another will continue the long climb to fulfillment or perhaps I will find some other reason to play one.

Does any of this make sense?
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 02, 2006, 08:32:34 am: So your concern is that old players will try to pass themselves off as new, and there's the chance that other players will then waste their time by being friendly and helpful with those who don't need the help?
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zog on November 02, 2006, 02:12:33 pm: Quote from: bilbous on November 02, 2006, 08:22:40 am
Whenever my D&D character died permanently and I had to roll up a new one I just joined the party and went on. Sometimes there was some introductory prelude but for the most part is was "Let's get to the meat of the adventure as fast as we can. That is what we are here for!"

...at least you didn't begin the game with your brand-new paladin roasting on a spit ...surrounded by ogres ...and the REST of the party had about five minutes of game-time to rescue you before you cooked to death (and they were SO not on-time!) :sweatdrop:
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zhai on November 02, 2006, 03:54:46 pm: Having new characters implies creating new stories for them. An elliptical license that would save us the time to explain how they got there knowing all our friends is too much in my opinion. It doesn't take much to get to know new people in the game, especially if you... er... already know them... I mean, well yeah... you know what I mean! Just a little RP with those you enjoy RPing already.

Anyways, pretending you are a new player is totally OOC and if you do it, it is with OOC reasons. Whether that's good or not, I think would depend on the situation. However, there's no point in trying to disguise it's OOC. And as far as guild spies goes, a good solution is to keep it all IC, never using knowledge that isn't told to the spy IC nor take information from their forums or anything. I wouldn't mind as a player having that kind of spies around my characters. Of course, if my characters found out about them they would slap the wax out their ears. In fact, I think the rangers had some spies for a while... wonder why?

*Zhai cracks her knuckles*
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 02, 2006, 04:19:48 pm: Zog: Were you there? ... except I think I was a mage, staked out on a Giant Fire Ant hill, covered in maple syrup and the party stopped to make pancakes.

Zan: no real concern, just exploring ideas that come to mind.

zhai: wasn't really thinking about spies. I was thinking more about the kind of person who pretends to be a new player to abuse the generosity of well-meaning players. Such people are like those male players who consistantly play female characters because other guys are more likely to give them things. I am not suggesting this is a particular problem here nor can I think of any specific examples. These players are more likely to say they just want to look at the female form rather than the male one but they don't mind accepting chivalrous benefits. I have a rather unflattering name for these but that is not important.

This kind of thinking about the people who play online games is not specific to PS but I am trying to consider how it applies to PS. If this topic is unsuitable in your mind just ignore it and it will go away.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 02, 2006, 06:10:01 pm: I don't think that the things you're concerned about actually happen in game though. I don't understand why you're worried.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Seytra on November 02, 2006, 10:10:48 pm: Sadly, this sort of thing has happened and continues to happen. At least once it created major and very OOC trouble. That particular instance has been resolved, but there certainly are many such cases going on, not known to me.

The only correct behaviour IMO is that if you play an alt, be it on the same account or another, and you start to interact with someone you or your other character know, to immediately tell them that you are playing an alt of the char they know already.

The only exception is the use of very temporary alts as parts of an RP that you are conducting, where their purpose is short-lived and interaction doesn't take place beyond the replies to quest-related issues, because in that case, players are likely to know beforehand that they are alts of you.

Why would players not do this? Several reasons:

1) To spy on IC things. Very OOC and IMNSHO should be punished.
2) To spy on OOC things. Must be punished severely. This is close to fraud.
3) To remove bad OOC reputation. Instead of being honest and trying to better your reputation, they take the easy way out (which won't work, unless they actually changed their ways, in which case the disguise wouldn't be required).
4) To abuse kindness of other players. Like 1.
5) To gain undeserved OOC attention of whatever sort. Like 2.

In short, with the single exception I mentioned, I see absolutely no valid reason why this should be acceptable.

IC, however, any new character must obviously know only what they learn, and transferring knowledge from one char to another is bad RP at least. You can always skip things that your char may have learned already (like landmarks and such) if it doesn't add to the RP at hand, but other things, like other chars (not players!), must be gotten to know separately. This isn't much of a burden IMO, because alts shouldn't happen frequently.
I have only one single account, and this single account has two characters: one for RP (Netrhys) and the other (Seytra) solely for testing, but if a player thinks they can RP several characters, this is fine as well (though not at the same time, for the delayed responses).
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 02, 2006, 11:12:28 pm: I'm not saying you're wrong, but... giving money to characters because the player behind the character is new is itself an OOC activity.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 02, 2006, 11:37:41 pm: Quote from: zanzibar on November 02, 2006, 11:12:28 pm
I'm not saying you're wrong, but... giving money to characters because the player behind the character is new is itself an OOC activity.

It may be strictly Out Of Context but helping truly new player/characters should not be discouraged. Old players taking advantage of this discourages the helping of new players in my opinion.

For the record, I started this topic in the abstract sense for the purposes of discussion. I do not know of any players who might be doing this but I do think it is probably being done. I hope that is clear.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 12:01:05 am: Meh. The average handout is anywhere from 500 trias to 2,000 in rare cases. Given that the "elite" players have many millions of trias, I still don't think it's a problem.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Datruth on November 03, 2006, 12:22:07 am: I tottally agree.

If you play a new character and abuse your position as such, especially saying so on our Forums, then you should be shamed out of the community.

By abuse your position i mean acceppting large sums of money that you would be able to get within an hour, or by wasting everyone's time around you.

Or by a myriad of other cases.

If you are a veteran and you create a new character, try RPing him with all basic knowledge, don't waste players time and money.

~~Datruth
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 03, 2006, 12:31:07 am: I personally have given /30 weapons a time or two when those were 2nd-3rd tier weapons and other magic weapons of merely somewhat better than stock quality. I don't usually give out cash but I have been known to waste 5 minutes or so showing people to the sewers and telling them how to loot etc. I'd hate to think that some of those many millions of trias came from my generosity but it wouldn't suprise me. Also it seems to me that it is only the excessively greedy that have gathered that much cash but this might be a little off. Certainly I hibernated for quite a while but if you already have more cash than you can ever hope to spend and your skills/stats are already maxed why are you still fighting the mobs with the high quality loot to sell for outrageous prices? Shouldn't you start a new character and give other people a chance to loot the good stuff while your new character grows up to take its place at the trough?

Personally I see no problem with a main character subsidizing an alts startup after which it should be left to its own devices. It would be more appropriate if the alt was then beholden to the main in some way though. Certainly if you are subsidizing your alts you should be helping the new players as well. Others may well disagree.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 12:47:47 am: If someone who had a million trias was given as much as a thousand trias, then that thousand trias only amounts to one tenth of one percent of the player's fortune.

The money came from a bug a while ago where a quest item sold to NPCs for something like 80 million trias. There was a money wipe to ballance things out, but many people became rich from the bug even if they didn't exploit it directly. Given that silverweave shortswords sell for 500k right now, much of that money is obviously still around.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 03, 2006, 01:09:55 am: Shows you what I get for hibernating, I can barely afford to keep training. By the time I get to 40-50k it is time to train light armor again which cost nearly 20k I think last time I trained it. Sword is almost as expensive and then there is axe, dagger the various ways not to mention various tradeskills. Of course I don't have to train everything but it is progressing my character that gives me satisfaction. PP's don't seem to be as much of a problem. Still I can see the day when I will have no more skills to train. It won't be soon but I might go into hibernation again when it happens or even before.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: neko kyouran on November 03, 2006, 02:58:25 am: Quote from: Seytra on November 02, 2006, 10:10:48 pm
Why would players not do this? Several reasons:

1) To spy on IC things. Very OOC and IMNSHO should be punished.
2) To spy on OOC things. Must be punished severely. This is close to fraud.
3) To remove bad OOC reputation. Instead of being honest and trying to better your reputation, they take the easy way out (which won't work, unless they actually changed their ways, in which case the disguise wouldn't be required).
4) To abuse kindness of other players. Like 1.
5) To gain undeserved OOC attention of whatever sort. Like 2.

6. There are many people that can't distinguish between characters if the player behind the character is the same and they know that to be such. As example, Talking with zorbels, she has made a few alts from time to time, to experiment different things, that her main character simply wouldn't do. When people started to find out that it was simply a different name tag, but the player was the same, then her alt was treated exactly like her main character, as if they were one in the same. This treatment which was completly wrong for the type of character the alt was, which basically ruined the type of character she was trying to experiment with. So another reason to play an alt and not tell people and act newish (that is, not know anyone, places in town, NOT game controls, only IC type stuff) is simply becuase you want to play a different role, and don't want to be treated as if you were still playing your main character.

No one has "perfect RP". Not telling others that it's you only under an alt, takes the problem I stated above out of the equation when playing a different type character.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 03, 2006, 03:11:04 am: Personally I don't care if a player just wants to say "[I'm familiar with how to play and what to do, thank you.]" and just leave it at that. That allows her his anonymity while acknowledging the helpers offer. It allows the helper to dispense with the uneeded "structural help" if I may call it that, and pass on some useful RP information such as introducing themselves and whoever they know that may be around, gossiping about current events and so on or not as they see fit.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Suno_Regin on November 03, 2006, 03:20:57 am: Actually, I've done this "new player" act, but not in the way described. I don't tell anyone who I am, and I go on like normal, like a newbie, not necessarily asking about the controls, but I ask people things in brackets and whatnot. Seytra, before saying the reasons why we do it, you should actually stop pretending that you know why and actually go do it. We do it because all OOC likes and dislikes are completely removed when you make a new character, and you can roleplay with some person who hates or likes you OOC and they won't know you. You can go on like you don't know how to play (in an intelligent sense), and make more friends and get a fresh start. It isn't about reputation, it's just "restarting" and turning old enemies into new friends. I have so many characters that do this. For example, about 4 of my characters know Farren, but he only knows that I'm Mitaki, and none of the others. By hiding your identity you can roleplay without OOC distractions.

It's hard to explain, really. But Seytra, study up a little more on things.

I was about to post this, but since Bilbous beat me, I might as well reply to that too. While playing as this new character, people often times will try to help me with what they think my problem is, if there is any at all. I just take the help, I don't say I already know, I just go along with it. If you say you do, then people see you as a snobby little bastard. But if you just accept their help, say thanks, and maybe become friends with that person, you've accomplished what you made the new character for.

Another example: In Gunz, I often times make a new character just to get into the newbie channels. Newbies are nice to their own kind, yet act like the older players act like they know it all, while the older players sometimes help the newer players.

...I've done my research. Now you know why I've filled 5 accounts with characters. I always try to create a new start ingame, trying to fix what I did wrong before. Until then, I can't enjoy it without thinking back to times I've screwed up in any little roleplay or I said something to offend someone and they knew who I was outside of my character. Calls for a restart. I restart, fix that problem by either coincidentally becomming friends with that person, or just not running into them again. All roleplay stays in character though. I never speak in roleplay "Hey I know you, you helped me across the hills as Mitaki" or something, for example. Now that that's out, I forget why I said this. Oh well. *click*
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 03:30:44 am: Hey, really good post Suno :)

I too am against the idea that alts should be made known to people you know as a player. It's too easy to superimpose what your experiences were with one character onto another character of the same person. Not that it's impossible to overcome, but if you can avoid running into such problems from the start, why not? Clearly alts should never be abused, yadda yadda. But it's not necessarily wrong to hide your player identity behind a new avatar. Plus you escape some distracting /tells that way too - "Hey, on another char this-and-this happened, so I was wondering if such-and-such with so-and-so and..." Nah. That's on another character who bears no relation to the one you're currently on. If people could be perfectly objective there would be less of a need for omitting things like this. Until then though, it's often a harmless clean start.

(Plus it's easy to refuse "donations" from older players without making your reasons obvious.)
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Seytra on November 03, 2006, 05:39:00 am: Suno_Regin, what you are saying is precisely what I was referring to in point 3. You are hiding behind an alt for OOC reasons, and you even said that you are using this mask for actively tricking people into thinking you are someone else OOC-ly. Sorry, but this is not acceptable at all.
I sincerely hope that I have not made friends with a treacerous person like you ingame. You are telling me to do my research, and to sink as low as you obviously did? No, sorry, I am not going to do that. I say that you sould do some research on basic honesty! Looks like my deductions about the reasons were pretty much right.
Yes, this will seem to you like what you are doing is valid ("removing all OOC likes and dislikes"), because I'm definitely going to avoid you from now on. Maybe, however, you manage the little courtesy to avoid me ingame, yes? I've stated what my chars are, so that should be easy enough.

I don't see validity in any of your points. You do something stupid? Well, how about working to fix it, instead of hiding?

If you can start another char just like that, then I am inclined to question the depth and therefore quality of your RP.

Yes, there always are people who are poor RPers, and yes, one can't always perfectly separate IC identities. However, is their RP otherwise good? I doubt it, so why exactly would it matter? But this isn't important. What's important is:
Quote from: Suno_Regin on November 03, 2006, 03:20:57 am
Until then, I can't enjoy it without thinking back to times I've screwed up in any little roleplay or I said something to offend someone and they knew who I was outside of my character.
Decent people try to fix what they did wrong. Decent people even consider apologizing instead of stealth tactics.
Looks like that's too much for you. Possibly you should be thinking much more about where and how and why you screwed up, but hey, that's just my "uninformed" opinion, I guess.

Edit:
Quote from: Suno_Regin on November 03, 2006, 03:20:57 am
For example, about 4 of my characters know Farren, but he only knows that I'm Mitaki, and none of the others. By hiding your identity you can roleplay without OOC distractions.
My reasoning couldn't have been any more precise. What you are calling "OOC distractions" are actually very valid OOC concerns. You are tricking people, there's no amount of romanticizing and glossing over you can do to make this fact disappear. If they don't like you OOC-ly, work to make that go away, or live with it. They will have their reasons. I certainly have mine.
/Edit

I'm appalled that you seem to share this view, Karyuu. If you are talking about GMing, then I do see the point (to avoid GMing requests), but not as general player. Granted, since I don't use alts, I obviously can't have trouble with the /tells that you claim. However, I think that the players with whom I RP (and thus would notify about any hypothetical alt) can handle different characters.
I can't see anything "harmless" in this. In fact, I find this treacherous behavious disgusting and setting a bad example.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 05:44:57 am: Quote from: Seytra on November 03, 2006, 05:39:00 am
Suno_Regin, what you are saying is precisely what I was referring to in point 3. You are hiding behind an alt for OOC reasons, and you even said that you are using this mask for actively tricking people into thinking you are someone else OOC-ly. Sorry, but this is not acceptable at all.

Why not? As long as you aren't using it to take advantage of others, then what's the problem? Knowing who the player is behind the character is OOC information anyway, so why are you so intent on knowing it?

By the way, your post stinks of troll. The language you chose is very rude, insulting, and inflamatory. I highly recomend that you rewrite it keeping in mind that not everyone is going to see things the same as you do. There's nothing "treacherous" about wanting to have a new character without giving away OOC information about it.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 05:49:43 am: When I roleplay in-game I generally try to avoid associating any one person with any one character - the players fade away and all I interact with are the people of Yliakum. Do I have to know whether such-and-such character is played by the person who also owns so-and-so? No. For what reason? Is it being sneaky? Not at all. It's OOC knowledge that I don't need and should never have any use for. Will it change people's expectations of one of my new characters if they know who is playing him or her? Of course. It's not about handling alts, but about an unconscious taint of perceptions. It's unavoidable, and I think that it is indeed harmless to omit such player information for this reason.

A character is an individual in this world, and has no ties to anything but other individuals. A player is there to pull the strings of the character puppet. There is no treachery here.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Seytra on November 03, 2006, 06:00:36 am: Zanzibar, I am going to make an exception from ignoring you for this single post of yours.
Quote from: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 05:44:57 am
Why not? As long as you aren't using it to take advantage of others, then what's the problem? Knowing who the player is behind the character is OOC information anyway, so why are you so intent on knowing it?
In order to allow me to avoid players whom I want to avoid. Simple as that. And yes, I do consider tricking people into becoming friends with you OOC-ly, when they in fact dislike you OOC-ly, as taking advantage of others.
Quote from: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 05:44:57 am
By the way, your post stinks of troll. The language you chose is very rude, insulting, and inflamatory.
You are accusing me of trolling? You, the one who has been trolling more than anyone else I've seen yet? You who made posts with contradicting statements for threads on end, and who used to incite anger and then used unclear formulations in order to wiggle out if the argument started pinning you down? You can't be serious.
Quote from: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 05:44:57 am
I highly recomend that you rewrite it keeping in mind that not everyone is going to see things the same as you do.
You certainly are not in the position to recommend anything to me. In fact, as much as you seem to be trying to convince others that you've changed, I don't buy it, and your plagiatism of a decent RPer isn't good enough. You are playing the good RPer all over the forums, yet you have been advocating too much bad RP in the past for such a change, all out of the sudden, to be believable. Your signature quotes don't make it any better. In fact, I believe Monketh was being sarcastic.
Quote from: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 05:44:57 am
There's nothing "treacherous" about wanting to have a new character without giving away OOC information about it.
It's not about giving OOC info about the character, and you know it. This is your usual attempt to distract from the points. It is solely about telling who is the player behind it, nothing else.

@Karyuu: if I know, or have to assume, that a player is a problem, even just for me, then I certainly want to avoid contact with that player. This definitely is OOC, but would you actually want to play a game of chess with someone you dislike unless you are forced to? So why would you want to play PS with someone you don't like?
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 06:11:46 am: Because when I roleplay, I try to put OOC conflicts aside. I don't have any particular player I would want to avoid in-game, so perhaps I'm not capable of understanding the full importance this has for you :} Unless I'm suddenly forced to acknowledge the player behind the character, I choose not to. Whatever problems I may have with a player, unless they relate directly to the character s/he is currently using, they become insignificant.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 03, 2006, 06:42:33 am: I can understand both sides of where this topic has gone in respect of know/not knowing the player. On the one hand there is much potential for abuse with hiding the player, some players are unable to change their ways for long. On the other hand if there is no way to leave past mistakes behind there is little room for growth or change. The biggest quandry I find in all this is does the player who has preyed upon the well-meaning in an out of context disruptive manner really understand what he has done wrong and want to change or is he just donning his sheeps clothing. There is a big difference between this and having one evil character and one good. If you are a good player who respects the rules and the other players I don't think it is necessary to know that that evil dude is the same player as this goodie twoshoes. However when the player himself is a "griefer," someone who just enjoys annoying others it is extremely important to know all the disguises he may wear so that he can be avoided. It doesn't matter what mask he wears you know he will be trouble.

It is a hard distinction to make sometimes because people can backslide when they are trying to improve as well as old impressions can cause unjust accusations when they actually are being good.

I think people shoiuld be given the benefit of the doubt until they have erased all doubt.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 03, 2006, 06:45:29 am: Although I'm definitely a lot more laid back in my approach, I'd have to say I'm definitely on Seytra's side in this one. I've never understood the concept of not telling people who you are... It always seemed sort of low and dishonorable to me. It happens, I live, but I don't like it, and I would never suggest the idea to anyone. Seytra really worded my objections quite nicely. And I also agree with the desire to RP with people you actually like OOC. After all, in a tabletop RPG, you wouldn't really have that much fun if the people you played with were jerks, even if all your characters were friends IC...

Bilbous stated a good opinion as well. It made me realize that I would much prefer someone to ask me to forget their previous bad RP, or whatever than to try and RP with me again with another character. I am a forgiving person, and it's not hard for me to forget past wrongs. I would appreciate the honesty.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 06:48:36 am: Quote from: Seytra on November 03, 2006, 06:00:36 am
Zanzibar, I am going to make an exception from ignoring you for this single post of yours.

That's nice, since I don't even remember who you are.

I read through your post. I found it to be small minded and petty. Yes, petty. And yes, I'm accusing you of trolling. Suno and Karyuu both made some very good, from the heart points, and your reaction was to flame them with a very aggressive tone. There was no need for that.

I hope that one day you grow out of this bitterness you seem to keep with you. When I judge others, I try to remind myself that I make mistakes, and that others can change. It's too bad that you do not see things the same way.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 03, 2006, 06:51:03 am: Zanzibar, that fatherly tone is spreading it a bit too thick.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Karyuu on November 03, 2006, 06:53:08 am: Since the subject of this thread has already shifted a bit, I hope it's okay if I continue on the current tangent:

Often the use of alts in a large RP plot becomes necessary - and I feel that a story would lose some of its immersion and magic if I knew that [Big Ugly Man] was also played by [Noble Paladin]. Is it not much more fun to wonder Who is this sudden new terror, where did he come from? instead of going How neat, another character of [playername] ?
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 03, 2006, 06:59:34 am: Ah, but that is merely for you. For instance, I know that Under creates many alts for the running of various roleplays. This doesn't keep me from interacting with them each separately. Also, and I know this is heading into the "personal preference" territory, but I don't like the concept of long-term alts. Short-term ones that are meant to last as long as the storyline of a certain RP, fine. Even long-term ones that you just go on to enjoy the game from a different perspective for a couple hours every month are fine, but ones where you purposefully come and RP with the same people that you RP with your other characters just seems selfish somehow. I think that if everyone put as much effort into a single character as I do into Phinehas, then the RP would be a lot richer due to more developed characters. As it is, everyone just wants to be everything, which seems somewhat immature to me. I'm not saying we shouldn't have fun, I'm saying that if people work together to make the RP a higher quality, it WILL be more fun.

Yes, that was a rant.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 03, 2006, 07:03:02 am: Certainly there is no problem with thread morphing in interesting directions. I have to say though that there is a vast difference between ephemeral characters such as Big Ugly Man and Noble Paladin and alternate characters that are going to be used outside of set pieces. It is possible that I for example could be called to play Big Ugly Man and do such a good job that the character becomes a staple of future events. If the character is used in this manner and played true to its purpose, it doesn't really matter who is controlling it. Such a role is unlikely to be given to an untrusted player so the problem will not likely come up.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 07:05:41 am: Quote from: Phinehas on November 03, 2006, 06:51:03 am
Zanzibar, that fatherly tone is spreading it a bit too thick.

It's sincere though.

Also: In D&D, you wouldn't play with people you don't like, but this isn't D&D. It's Planeshift. The difference in medium makes a big difference to the way the game operates. I think that if you're worried about someone taking advantage of you based on an OOC grudge, then that's cause for concern, but I'm not quite sure how they would go about actually acting on it. Since there's no way for them to really hurt you, I don't really see what Seytra's concerns stem from. It seems to me like he's just being petty and vindictive.

@Bilbous: I agee entirely. Using alts to grief others is out of line. But griefing others in general is out of line, so I'm still not sure what we hope to achieve with this thread.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 03, 2006, 07:10:51 am: And yet Zanzi, I still think that trying to right wrongs and apologizing when necessary is better than hoping to trick the people into thinking you're not you. You'll be hard pressed to deny that.

If I ever let all the people who dislike me finally get the best of me, I'm not simply going to create another character and wander around as him. I'm going to talk to the people who disliked me, apologize if necessary, do my best to make amends. Then I may or may not retire Phinehas and create another character, however, I would let people know here in the forums and OOC in-game that I am Phinehas.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 07:15:21 am: Quote from: Phinehas on November 03, 2006, 07:10:51 am
And yet Zanzi, I still think that trying to right wrongs and apologizing when necessary is better than hoping to trick the people into thinking you're not you. You'll be hard pressed to deny that.

Actually, I'll deny it somewhat readily. Some people are hard to make peace with, myself one of them. It isn't always worth the trouble. Also, OOC reputations tend to take on a life of their own, and there's always the potential for someone out there to mess with your character or spy on it for OOC reasons.

Plus, as others like Zorbels and Karyuu have said, even when you're on good terms with the player, you'll tend to treat their new characters differently just because of who the player behind the character is. The easiest way to avoid this is simply to keep the identity of the player a secret. It's OOC information anyway.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 03, 2006, 07:17:20 am: I think the basic disagreement here is that some people believe that RP is something you do with friends, and is more enjoyable as such than RPing with strangers. Others believe that who you're RPing with doesn't matter, as long as they're good at it.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: neko kyouran on November 03, 2006, 08:13:55 am: Quote from: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 07:15:21 am
Plus, as others like Zorbels and Karyuu have said, even when you're on good terms with the player, you'll tend to treat their new characters differently just because of who the player behind the character is. The easiest way to avoid this is simply to keep the identity of the player a secret. It's OOC information anyway.

Small side note since I likes to keep the facts straight.... Lady Z hasn't posted here yet, but I did refer to her as an exmple in my post.
----------------------------------------
For me, I have the main character, but, I'm sorry to say, I get bored with playing 1 character. Be it vastly unfinshed game mechanics or not, months and months, and countless hours, even if its just a few here and there at a time, after awhile, things do start to get a bit stale. Rather than letting the RP atmosphere suffer, I then decide it's time to put this character down and try something else.

This game is supposed to be fun, not a second life. So after 3-4 months, as that's how long it normally takes for me to start to get bored and the value of my RP starts to degrade, I send my main off an exploration adventure. Then I crate a fresh character and start a different role. To keep it fresh, to have fun. I have tried both ways stated here. The first being telling people I play with, that this is just an alt of my main, and I'm just taking a break from my main, to play this character, and the other method. That being, keeping all ooc stuff out of it and just playing the role with out telling people this char is really just an alt of so and so.

From my personal experience, I like doing the latter of the two. Simply becuase, for the most generalist of players, they handle a new fresh character better in an IC way when they don't know that the player behind the character is really so and so. So I don't tell them. And to me, it seems to makes things more fun for me, and for the others interacting with my characters. Which is the point afterall, to have fun.

hope that makes sense, had to write a tad quickly. (I'm at work.)
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zhai on November 03, 2006, 08:36:29 am: The way it's happened for me is like this: I created a char, developed their personality and skills and had a bunch of buddies I would RP with. Then I thought of a different concept for a new character. Since the new personality was so different from the first character's, I had the chance to meet and RP with different players/characters and explore the game from a different perspective. And it also happened with my next character, and the next... Of course, the players I consider friends OOC know of most of my alts, but I don't feel the obligation of telling every new person I know who else I play as, same as any other OOC info. Do I care if everyone knows who I play as? Not at all.

Now as Zanzibar said: any kind of OOC deceit should be avoided. I'm gonna quote that episode during the Dwarven Wars yet again(I keen pointing at that particular case from time to time) where a player joined Dwarvesbane only to steal other members' weapons. Despite the complains, it was declared an IC trick. I tend to disagree since OOC channels were used to deceive other players and the thief just deleted the character after looting his guildmate. However, the problem was not that he had an alt and didn't say who his other character was. The problem was that he took advantage of the other players. Heck, I would have no problem being in a guild where one of the characters is my character's nemesis' alt, and not knowing, as long as they keep IC knowledge free from OOC info and ill purposes and RPed accordingly. You can lie to the characters, but you shouldn't lie to the players.

And I also agree with Phinehas and Setira that you should have the right to avoid the players you hate. However, I've never been in such a place and one of the good things about RP, in my opinion, is that by playing a character you can expand your own points of view and be more flexible and open, so why not give it a try? I believe that in the end RP will define who you really click with and will add to your buddy list for good. If the player behind the new char is no different from the one you knew in the first place, you'll see through them because of their actions will probably be loud and clear if that's the case.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 03, 2006, 03:50:17 pm: Quote from: zanzibar on November 03, 2006, 07:05:41 am
so I'm still not sure what we hope to achieve with this thread.

I don't know about you but for me, it is to pass the time and provoke lively discussion. I think it has been fairly successful in that regards. Is there a problem with a thread having no other purpose than to be thought provoking? Perhaps a few more people will share their feelingsabout the topic, perhaps it will peter out. I have (mostly) enjoyed it. If you feel the need to achieve great purposes maybe you should join the geek corps (http://www.geekcorps.org/) (joking, although it is, I think a noble purpose).
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Kiraki on November 03, 2006, 07:17:02 pm: This is indeed a very interesting topic. Even though there is such a great diversity in opinions I can’t help but feel that they are all, for the most part, correct. This is because they are simply that, opinions. These change with each person’s personal experience and is thus completely valid from their point of view.

Alts can easily be abused and they should really be used with a lot of thought and consideration. My character makes mistake, but I carry on, sometimes I am able to fix things sometimes not. I do not think alts should be used in any relation to your main character. This includes spying or trying to make amends/form friendships with people who your main character does not get along with and other similar actions.
The problem with telling people about your alt is that there are a lot of people who can not properly RP not knowing this OOC information. As Neko has said, they associate your new character with your old one and often mix them up and refer to things that had happened which your character knows nothing about.

Playing with Kiraki usually means conversing with a lot of different people often leading to very long and in-dept conversations. I, on the other hand, am not always as talkative as my character and not always in the mood for pretending to be, as I am not in the right mind set to keep the right attitude IC. So instead of going OOC I created a new character with a less gregarious personality specifically with this in mind (This was quite a long while ago already). It was not to try and befriend people Kira did not get along with or try to spy or trick people or anything of the sort, it was simply meant to better encompass my highly and constantly fluxing moods. I am not my character nor am I like her. I feel that revealing to someone who I am on an alt is not so much revealing myself but revealing my character, which does not make sense for the two have no relation with each other. Yet I did so as to let people know OOC that it is the same person behind the two characters - even though most of them associate with my main character and do not really know the person behind. I still find this a strange concept.

I found however that telling people who you are causes a lot of problems, mostly related to the reason stated above. A lot of people either assume the two are alike or that they know each other for some reason. Some even came up to me and started talking as if we where old friends, although my character had never met them, others kept trying to somehow meet or become involved with my character. I found it frustrating to play this new character because peoples reactions where often very unnatural as they kept yielding to the OOC aspect of things. At some point someone who had a problem with Kira came along and killed my little alt. I left her dead… Even though the problem turned out be a misunderstanding I have not resurrected her and have avoided using alts since then.

Even when using an alt the game is still meant to be enjoyable. For me this was not possible with people knowing the person behind the alt as it was disruptive to my RP and generally just irritating. If I do create another alt I will most likely try a different approach, i.e. keeping it secret (*Gasp* Am I bad person now?). Some might feel this is sneaky or low but to me it would not be to try and trick people into thinking I am someone else OOC or any other dishonorable reasons or intentions, but simply for the sake of simplicity and to avoid confusion. I would only tell those few who I am fully certain would be able to still keep IC while knowing such OOC information.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 03, 2006, 07:39:49 pm: Thank you for your contribution Kiraki. I agree that is a very valid reason to create an alternate character. One reason I have for creating other characters is similar. As bilbous gets more experienced the range of options for him to actually do as opposed to pretend to do has become more limited. Starting a new character opens up all the early experience parts of the game again. I am not trying to belittle Role Play when i referred to it as "pretending to do" I was merely trying to distinguish it from those aspects of the game that can be enjoyed even if you were alone in the world. For some people "alone in a crowd" is a reality that can be hard to shake so having levelling as an adjunct to pure RP is inclusive. You are more likely to get to know that person that on the next exercise bicycle fairly frequently than you are the person always standing on the same street corner when you go by unless perhaps you are buying whatever they are selling. If people were not meant to have alternate characters then accounts would only allow for one.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Monketh on November 04, 2006, 07:49:16 pm: I'm afraid that although I can acknowledge the concerns of those opposing anonymous alternates, I can't agree with them. The beauty of the internet is the ability to forget who you are.

There are some valid reasons.
1.) As previously mentioned, people treat certain players differently, and extend this effect to their characters. I myself have difficulty dissociating players from their characters. Therefore, I entirely understand this motive, as I am guilty of causing people to do this. (The effects of Draklar creating a dark character in the earlier years are a good case study of this.)
2.) Human nature is not by default forgiving, we can't all be the nice people we want to be or see in the world. Some of us choose not to and that is unfortunate; but this is a game, something we do to escape the cares of reality. Likewise it would be silly of us to drag the baser elements of human nature in with us. (We should apologize for our actions, but if we are legitimately changed we should be forgiven. Because some people believe we cannot change, or are really freaking stubborn in holding grudges, and because gossip echoes, opposing freeing oneself of a past identity in a virtual game environment is unreasonable.)
3.) Those who abuse the priviledge will abuse it regardless of what we say here. There is no way their ISP's are going to just hand over their IPs as they change just so a free open-source MMORPG can ban them for a reason like this. As much as you may dislike it, the negative effects of any methods to restrain it would outweigh any benefit.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 04, 2006, 08:02:43 pm: I see another divide here. There are those who see alts as a way to grief others, and there are those who see alts as a way to avoid being grief'ed! :-D
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Monketh on November 04, 2006, 08:33:25 pm: The only way would be to verbally harass them. /ignore cuts that problem.
I doubt people would be willing to go through the trouble of gaining someone's trust in order to betray them.
What are they going to do, kill us with their -9 sword of noobness?
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 04, 2006, 08:49:59 pm: Quote from: Monketh on November 04, 2006, 08:33:25 pm
The only way would be to verbally harass them. /ignore cuts that problem.

Not true at all. There are plenty of ways to harass people in game that the /ignore function doesn't stop. You can instruct others not to RP with that individual (including entire guilds), you can target them for kill stealing, you can harass them by constantly walking over their character or moving your character to where they're standing, you can file petitions about the person with false accusations (even better, use three different characters to make three different petitions!), and I'm sure there's more.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 05, 2006, 12:34:46 am: I think one of the reasons that I don't like alts is that I always seem to be on the receiving end of the negative side of alts... I still remember back in MB and there were a lot of times that people created alts and then abused them hugely. I'm sure some of you remember the whole deal with... can never remember his name... Jestal. That was a nightmare. Plus, I've been around long enough to know a lot of people who's characters became good friends with my character, but then they got bored and decided to create a new character and so Phinehas was robbed of a friend. This isn't a big deal for normal people, but Phinehas doesn't have many friends... Cyl is the big one I'm thinking of right now, but there have been many...

Anyway, I'm not saying alts are evil, I'm just saying that in my mind my negative experience with alts outweighs my positive experiences.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Suno_Regin on November 05, 2006, 02:22:46 am: Quote from: Seytra on November 03, 2006, 05:39:00 am
Suno_Regin, what you are saying is precisely what I was referring to in point 3. You are hiding behind an alt for OOC reasons, and you even said that you are using this mask for actively tricking people into thinking you are someone else OOC-ly. Sorry, but this is not acceptable at all.
I sincerely hope that I have not made friends with a treacerous person like you ingame. You are telling me to do my research, and to sink as low as you obviously did? No, sorry, I am not going to do that. I say that you sould do some research on basic honesty! Looks like my deductions about the reasons were pretty much right.
Yes, this will seem to you like what you are doing is valid ("removing all OOC likes and dislikes"), because I'm definitely going to avoid you from now on. Maybe, however, you manage the little courtesy to avoid me ingame, yes? I've stated what my chars are, so that should be easy enough.

I don't see validity in any of your points. You do something stupid? Well, how about working to fix it, instead of hiding?

If you can start another char just like that, then I am inclined to question the depth and therefore quality of your RP.

Yes, there always are people who are poor RPers, and yes, one can't always perfectly separate IC identities. However, is their RP otherwise good? I doubt it, so why exactly would it matter? But this isn't important. What's important is:
Quote from: Suno_Regin on November 03, 2006, 03:20:57 am
Until then, I can't enjoy it without thinking back to times I've screwed up in any little roleplay or I said something to offend someone and they knew who I was outside of my character.
Decent people try to fix what they did wrong. Decent people even consider apologizing instead of stealth tactics.
Looks like that's too much for you. Possibly you should be thinking much more about where and how and why you screwed up, but hey, that's just my "uninformed" opinion, I guess.

Edit:
Quote from: Suno_Regin on November 03, 2006, 03:20:57 am
For example, about 4 of my characters know Farren, but he only knows that I'm Mitaki, and none of the others. By hiding your identity you can roleplay without OOC distractions.
My reasoning couldn't have been any more precise. What you are calling "OOC distractions" are actually very valid OOC concerns. You are tricking people, there's no amount of romanticizing and glossing over you can do to make this fact disappear. If they don't like you OOC-ly, work to make that go away, or live with it. They will have their reasons. I certainly have mine.
/Edit

I'm appalled that you seem to share this view, Karyuu. If you are talking about GMing, then I do see the point (to avoid GMing requests), but not as general player. Granted, since I don't use alts, I obviously can't have trouble with the /tells that you claim. However, I think that the players with whom I RP (and thus would notify about any hypothetical alt) can handle different characters.
I can't see anything "harmless" in this. In fact, I find this treacherous behavious disgusting and setting a bad example.

I'm really getting tired of people moaning at me. It's people like you I try to "hide" from, because appologizing to someone who doesn't listen to anything I say is like talking to a brick. I don't even know why I'm replying now, since you're just going to reply with even more moaning. For your information, every character I play as has a different personality, and a different profession. You've probably roleplayed with half of them already, but I don't really know who your characters are, nor do you know mine. The goal of the creators of this game is to try and remove all OOC, and make Yliakum seem like a real world. Now, with what I'm doing, with no one knowing who I am OOC, they can roleplay with me under the impression that I'm a stranger and not their friend, and they won't instantly get along with me.

It's like this one time when I made a new character, and told Gag who I was. From then on he started roleplaying with me like I was his friend, even though we hadn't officially met IC. I don't try to "sneak" around, I just don't walk into a tavern and say "I'm Suno." I just roleplay like I don't know anyone there. ROLEPLAY, that is. Let me say it again. ROLEPLAY. Sure, they still don't know who I am IC yet, but if they uncover it and really get into talking with me, they might squeeze it out. I don't really need to announce to everyone who I am. I mainly just make new characters because old ones get boring, and I like to play the role of someone different.

No one actually knows who I am OOC, and if anyone gets into a conversation with me they might see the side of me that I'm not showing on the forums. It seems like it's gone from talking and asking questions to trying to deal with idiots and listen to a bunch of moaning. I hardly even feel like posting on the forums anymore because no one bothers to listen to what you're saying, and instead feels more like picking out pieces and parts from your post, leaving out most of what you said after or before that, and going on a rant about it.

Oh, and about the "live with people hating me" thing...if I can make a new character and roleplay with them and actually befriend them, then tell them who I am afterwards, then that just proves that they had no reason to hate me in the first place. But if I try to roleplay with them, or simply even talk to them with a character they know from before, they won't bother to listen.

(http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6388/languagepu1.gif)
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 05, 2006, 05:25:11 am: I've actually heard some not so good reports about Suno in-game. But as I can't verify them, I'm not going to make that an issue.

The main thing I noticed about your post is that you said you create new characters when old ones get boring. Now, I know I take everything too seriously, but that seems like it would sort of destroy other people's RP in some ways. In real life, your friends don't just never show up all of a sudden. And if you're doing this multiple times, you're taking away from the RP, instead of creating a character that others can RP with long-term and thereby aid the RP in the game in general. I'm not saying we shouldn't make alts to mess around with, but you appear to be saying that you just discard old characters for new ones somewhat regularly. It seems a tad... irresponsible or something. Also, you don't have to justify yourself to me, but I'd suggest you make sure for yourself that the reason you're dumping old characters isn't just because you don't want to go through with the consequences of something you've done, or relationships you messed up.

Also, it seems to me that you're the one moaning. As for the whole ability to discard people's disfavor by creating a new character, I am probably one of the most disliked people on the forums and in-game, and yet here I am...
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Suno_Regin on November 05, 2006, 05:27:05 am: Actually, I balance the characters out a little. I go on one, then the other, and try to keep them played equally whenever I'm online. And which character was I playing as when I was "reported?"
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 05, 2006, 05:30:56 am: No idea. They just told me Suno Regin.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 05, 2006, 07:51:48 am: Quote from: Phinehas on November 05, 2006, 05:25:11 am
In real life, your friends don't just never show up all of a sudden.

Yes, yes they do. It may be they have a new partner who wants to nest or hates their friends, it may be they get a new job that takes them out of town permanently or requires shift work or they go away to school or their parents move the family to Podunk, Arkansas, but people come and go in life and the sooner you get used to it the better. Of course in this day and age keeping in touch is so much easier than it ever was before what with the internet and all but there isn't anything like that in PS.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 05, 2006, 07:59:41 am: You misunderstand. I'm willing to bet that there's no one in this thread who knows what it's like to lose friends due to circumstances as acutely as I do. However, I'm speaking of the kind where, for no apparent reason, they just don't wake up in their bed one day, vanishing without a trace. It's that sort of switching around that bothers me. If people give closure to their characters it's one thing, I don't agree with that either, but I'll accept it. However, a lot of people move onto other characters by simply dropping their old one, and that bothers me. People shouldn't suddenly and untraceable cease to exist. Not in a world as small as Yliakum. One person, sure, even two, three, or four. But somehow the concept of dozens of people disappearing into the labyrinths or being killed by dark underground cults that no one ever heard of is just stretching the reality a bit far for my taste...
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 05, 2006, 08:28:26 am: Well I don't know how much your character gets around but from what I can tell it is a real chore for him to get anywhere so he tends to not make long trips lightly and stay where he is as much as possible. Perhaps this is not correct but let us say for arguments sake, no wait I mean embellishments sake, :o that it is. What happens if you stay in hydlaa for three months while I spend the time in the Bronze doors region exploring? Will I have disappeared unexpectedly? I think so. Will it be for no apparent reason? Yes it will. Is it possible that you will go looking for me and not find me? Again I say yes. Most people who get tired of one character don't abandong it entirely, it just gets semi-retired. They get bored of the new one and the new one after that but having put a lot of effort into the old one they rarely delete it. If you really want to see it again you can always go on in context and tell all the new people you meet about them and how much you miss them. It is more fun to play characters that people want to know than characters you think nobody cares about. Sometimes though you come to the conclusion that there is nowhere new to take the character and it just isn't fun to play it anymore.

Nobody say you have to have more than one character but a lot of people just don't have the focus to stick to one. Should they be forced to stick to one until they come to hate playing the game at all? I don't think anyone wants that. How closed a society do you want?
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 06, 2006, 01:09:24 am: Quote from: bilbous on November 05, 2006, 08:28:26 am
How closed a society do you want?
Dude, what part of "I'm an elitist snob," don't you get? :D

I think we're pretty much splitting hairs here. Like I say, I may take things too seriously and personal, but I've been around longer and have more at stake with this community... having no friends...
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Seytra on November 06, 2006, 02:54:15 am: @Suno Rign: It is quite interesting that you say that I (and in fact almost everyone else on the boards) never (or rarely) read the other's responses, let alone the threads. I make quite an effort to read the entire thread before posting, but I disagree WRT most others here, too. Yes, some people actually don't read much, but these are just a few members of the community.
What actually amused me is that you yourself showed just this attitude:
Quote from: Suno_Regin on November 05, 2006, 02:22:46 am
You've probably roleplayed with half of them already, but I don't really know who your characters are, nor do you know mine.
Yet I had clearly and unmistakably stated who they are.
Quote from: Seytra on November 02, 2006, 10:10:48 pm
I have only one single account, and this single account has two characters: one for RP (Netrhys) and the other (Seytra) solely for testing
Maybe their low number of 2, which in reality is just one (1) since, as I stated, the other is merely for testing and not for RP, is so alien a concept to you, possibly due to your going through chars like others go through cups of coffee, that you didn't even notice the sentence. But it's on page 1 of this thread, so maybe that doesn't count?

Likewise,
Quote from: Suno_Regin on November 05, 2006, 02:22:46 am
It's people like you I try to "hide" from
is interesting, since I myself asked you, in the precise post that you quoted, to avoid me ingame, since you obviously are unwilling to give me any chance of avoiding you (which I'd gladly do, instead of sneakily trying to "befriend" you, which you are claiming to be an acceptable measure; is it possible that you fear that others might do to you what you do to them?).

There is something that I feel I should clarify:
When I am talking about telling who one is OOC-ly, I do mean neither of these:
- handing over your real name, place of residence, or any other personal information.
- telling everybody who you may end up talking to who you are on the boards, or what alts you have

In fact, I very much value the anonymity of the internet, as paradox as it may sound. But, and this is a huge "but", I also very much value honesty, and this forces these conclusions:

- If I tell somebody something about myself, then this has to be true (thus I rarely do it, and tell them that).
- If I talk to someone whom I have talked to under a different name, then I must tell them so.

The second one is what I was referring to in my posts: it is perfectly fine to play an alt and not tell anyone that you are playing that alt. But as soon as you start to (meaningfully) interact with someone with whom you have already (meaningfully) interacted with using another alt, then you need to tell them that you also played that other alt. You don't need to mention other alts that they have never gotten to know, only that alt that they have met already. However, it may still be a good idea to "reveal" all alts, because it may happen that both have additional alts, with which they might meet in the future, thereby having no chance to "reveal" themselves.

For clarification: "meaningful interaction" means conversations of more than a few minutes. With OOC, the time usually is longer, because the conversation rarely is as distinct as in the IC case.

Why? And why is not doing this "treachery" in my eyes? Because, unlike most other interactions on the internet, RP=trust. I RP only with those players whom I trust to at least a certain minimum. This trust involves the player alone, not the character. This trust, BTW, is what those of you who have had issues like another player taking some IC action for a reason of an OOC grudge may have failed in creating. I am even inclined to say that you may be the same players whom I don't trust, and whom I thus (try to) avoid. Interestingly, these players tend to be those that were PLing in the beginning, and who advocate (or advocated) that as fully IC, and to top it off, who advocate(d) the "deal with it" idea of "RP", and who tend to claim that for example spawn-stealing, or acting ingame based on what your OOC mood is ("one day I like to help newbies, the next day I like to slay them"), is RPing an evil character (which it isn't). (Yes, despite it being not disallowed in the rules, I view using macros and faster reactions, etc. in order to attack a MOB before someone else as stealing, just as bad as conventional KSing)

In short: if you have earned the trust of another RPer, then they will be able to distinguish between IC and OOC quite well, even if you do something non-nice to them IC-ly (and since the trust naturally is mutual, you will have clarified and agreed upon the act beforehand OOC-ly, knowing that the other will tell you what they are capable of accepting, and accept it if there is valid RP reason).

Therefore, if you have built up the mutual trust, there is no way that there can exist a problem like what you claim:
Quote from: Suno_Regin on November 03, 2006, 03:20:57 am
I've screwed up in any little roleplay or I said something to offend someone and they knew who I was outside of my character.
You cannot through IC interaction create unfixable OOC problems if you have achieved trust: you will get instant notification, the opportunity to rethink, and correct, all without loss of trust. Likewise, merely saying something IC-ly can not ever offend someone OOC-ly, if there is trust. Trust in that you are a decent RPer, who does their best to stay IC and true to the character at all times, and trust that you, as player, are a "good" person, so that even if you accidentally mix IC and OOC and say something bad, you don't mean it OOC-ly.
Frankly, I have absolutely no interest in doing one second of RP with a player who is an OOC jerk, even if that player were the grand master of RP, and the very essence of IC-ness. I'd rather talk undesignated OOC in 1337 via /shout (though I'm much more likely to just leave, obviously).

It is very obvious that, because this trust can only come with time, one cannot immediately fully RP with a new character (unless it's an alt of a trusted player).

Why is this trust so important (BTW, it is the very same trust that I tend to emphasize in the context of RPing "evil" chars)? Because it serves as a protection for your own RP. A protection against players who have no clue, or who are OOC jerks, or who simply have radically different concepts of RP than you. All of these can destroy your RP, and possibly character, in less than a minute, or simply force your RP in directions that you don't enjoy (possibly making you abandon your char).

Please don't confuse this with being elitist: I do welcome newbies, and I also RP with them. However, my RP will initially be less deep then with others whom I already know. This of course doesn't usually matter, because there's much IC "getting to know each other" to be done for each new character, anyway, which in itself will be less deep RP.
Likewise, if an established player doesn't seem to be my cup of tea, then I'll be certain to avoid deep RP with that player's characters. This should be in everyone's interest, anyway, since chances of something good coming from it are slim. I don't see how Karyuu (or anone else) can engage in truely deep RP without trusting the other players; after all, you are putting the entirety of thought and work and time building up a character (RP-wise) up for the bet. Don't you value your creation, or do you rely entirely on post-act ignoring (i.e., "my char didn't get killed by that newbie wannabe-evil who didn't know how to properly RP, it never happened")?

Quote from: Suno_Regin on November 03, 2006, 03:20:57 am
it's just "restarting" and turning old enemies into new friends.
I completely fail to see how this can at all happen. How can there be even just an OOC grudge, with you still having a sincere interest in getting to befriend the other player? Are you sure that it is not the desire to gain some advantage other than making a new friend? Likewise, if you sincerely regret and are interested in fixing the situation, how can it be possible that the other player will not accept it, and will give you the chance to do so? After all, you are being sincere, and you actually have learnt from whatever mistake it was, and are doing your best to improve?

Quote from: Suno_Regin on November 03, 2006, 03:20:57 am
I always try to create a new start ingame, trying to fix what I did wrong before. Until then, I can't enjoy it without thinking back to times I've screwed up in any little roleplay or I said something to offend someone and they knew who I was outside of my character. Calls for a restart. I restart, fix that problem by either coincidentally becomming friends with that person, or just not running into them again.
I fail to get this, either. How can you "coincidentally" become friends with someone you have wronged before? Why did you wrong them? Why would you even want to befriend them, if, for example, you think you were in the right? Are you still absolutely sure that your intentions are in fact genuinely honest, not merely trying to get away without apologising?

How can you even think of "being friends" with someone whom you not even tell that you wronged them, let alone make not even the slightest try to fix the situation?
I certainly am assuming here, but to me this feels like a sad excuse for avoiding responsibility, and it is the exact opposite of my notion of "being trustworthy".

@Suno Reign: to be clear on this: in my book, FESFES / Efflixi Aduro ranks much higher than you, because Efflixi not only tried to actually improve, but also, contrary to you, didn't try to sneak his way out of responsibility.

Now, it certainly is impossible to enforce this (just as any other common courtesy). Also, there certainly are morally acceptable uses for sneak-alts in the rare cases I outlined. However, if there is even the slightest chance of creating the impression that this sort of thing is anything other than an emergency measure (and I don't see how this can help if all other things fail) or shortlived RP support techique, then we will be completely unable to act against abusers. IOW, if we give blanket permission, like Karyuu seemingly did, then we will not be able to even make a point about abuse of any sort!

@Zhai: I completely second your view: that player was OOC, and as much as I hated the entire idea of Dwarvensbane for reasons that don't belong here, and also can understand the views of that player, it still was inacceptable (if it happened the way it was described, as I cannot verify it).
But even if it were universally agreed to have been abuse, and even if it were even more obviously OOC, with this blanket permission given, all we might hope to do is to give the player a warning, but an unenforcable one.

Quote from: zhai on November 03, 2006, 08:36:29 am
You can lie to the characters, but you shouldn't lie to the players.
should be "A character may lie to other characters, but a player must never lie to another player".

@Phinehas: Obviously there's less chance for someone RPing an evil char to gain trust, even OOC-ly, since due to the enormous potential for abuse and accidental mis-use, RPing "evil" is generally seen as a hint of a questionable player. It's obviously even less likely that that character will end up getting friends (you basically get what you give, in this respect).
However, I don't see issues with you on the forum, given that this is an entirely OOC place (save the RP sub-boards), though I may be missing things. Of course, if you OOC-ly are similar to "evil" (for which I don't recall evidence), then I must say that you get what you deserve.
But the general problem in your case is something that is, FAICT, unavoidable, regardless of alts: players eventually leave. It may take longer with alts for the player to leave, but I think that without alts, the player would have left by the time they otherwise created their first alt.

Regarding the level of people vanishing unexpectedly being realistic: this is a misconception. In the medieval times that PS is set in tech-wise, there was little means of transportation, and thus the populations were generally more stable. News travelled, but people didn't, unless they were merchants or somesuch. It was not possible to leave unexpectedly without a trace, as the preparation would have taken time, so unless you actually planned, and took measures for, an unexpected and undetected departure, then this would be pretty unlikely.
Therefore, being killed by some unknown cult is less realistic than simply packing and leaving for another level.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Kalika on November 06, 2006, 03:26:18 am: Quote from: zanzibar on November 04, 2006, 08:02:43 pm
I see another divide here. There are those who see alts as a way to grief others, and there are those who see alts as a way to avoid being grief'ed! :-D

i ahd made an alt purely to avoid all of drama and still enjoy the game
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 06, 2006, 03:30:47 am: Press gangs caused people to disappear suddenly as did the overbearing nobility at the slightest perceived insult from a peasant. Even the retainers of the nobles abused the common 'scum' that toiled in the fields. If you were nobility you did not disappear unless you slighted more powerful nobles but even family was no guarantee your head would not get chopped or you got shipped off to govern the colonies or marry a cousin.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Seytra on November 06, 2006, 03:38:02 am: Quote from: bilbous on November 06, 2006, 03:30:47 am
Press gangs caused people to disappear
You mean for ransom?
Quote from: bilbous on November 06, 2006, 03:30:47 am
suddenly as did the overbearing nobility at the slightest perceived insult from a peasant. Even the retainers of the nobles abused the common 'scum' that toiled in the fields. If you were nobility you did not disappear unless you slighted more powerful nobles but even family was no guarantee your head would not get chopped or you got shipped off to govern the colonies or marry a cousin.
I hadn't thought of that, but wouldn't all of that at least be known to those surrounding the person vanishing, or create rumors? I.e., it would still be known where you went, even if it's not possible to reach you, unlike in PS, where someone may log out one day, never to log in again?
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 06, 2006, 03:59:34 am: Press gangs: Basically the Captain of a ship would order his men to go into a town and "press" some locals into service often using broken oars and such as billy clubs. By the time these unfortunates woke up they would be at sea and have a choice between joining the crew and swimming home. Since there would typically be no land in sight when they were allowed on deck it wasn't much of a choice.

As far as the other goes, it may or may not. Rumors and suspicions are not definitive knowledge. If you go off-line I could just as easily assume your character is sleeping. If you stay off-line it is possible your hours and mine just haven't matched however both are out of context. I am perfect capable of claiming that Anthony (I think his name was) who I haven't seen since last year is the petrified kran. I can make up any kind of tale for someone who no longer plays, where is the difference? And if nobody sees them drag you off to your Oubliette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oubliette) nobody will know what happened to you.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Monketh on November 06, 2006, 04:37:02 am: Quote from: Seytra on November 06, 2006, 02:54:15 am
Regarding the level of people vanishing unexpectedly being realistic: this is a misconception. In the medieval times that PS is set in tech-wise, there was little means of transportation, and thus the populations were generally more stable. News travelled, but people didn't, unless they were merchants or somesuch. It was not possible to leave unexpectedly without a trace, as the preparation would have taken time, so unless you actually planned, and took measures for, an unexpected and undetected departure, then this would be pretty unlikely.
Therefore, being killed by some unknown cult is less realistic than simply packing and leaving for another level.

Wait, mental typo I suspect...
p(a) is low, therefore p(b) is low?
Randomly leaving wouldn't happen because the effort required would be visible, therefore the other outcome is less likely?

Suno may have forgotten your character names as they probably not something he encounters very often. You're probably right that character names are less important to those with many characters, though.

Despite that, I still think you're being paranoid. But I've already made my points.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 06, 2006, 05:22:42 am: @Seytra: Your use of the phrase "meaningful interaction" makes me suspect that you're refering to something very OOC, something like OOC chatting. Your statement that "RP=trust" doesn't really make sense to me either. I'm thinking that the way you're using the word "trust" might mean something different to you than it might mean to others. What it sounds to me like is that you're just taking things way too seriously, but I'm probably misunderstanding you.

Quote from: Seytra
It is very obvious that, because this trust can only come with time, one cannot immediately fully RP with a new character (unless it's an alt of a trusted player).

Actually, it isn't obvious at all. I roleplay all the time with people who I've just met or don't know very well. And I don't understand this business about protecting your RP experience, how is it possible for someone else to destroy your character if you don't want it to happen? Can you give an example? What's the difference to you between "RP" and "deep RP"?

Quote from: Seytra
How can you "coincidentally" become friends with someone you have wronged before? Why did you wrong them? Why would you even want to befriend them, if, for example, you think you were in the right?

This is actually a very thought provoking question. Why would you ever want to become friends with someone you hate? My answer would be because it would help you understand why that person did what they did and it would help you overcome your own feelings of hate or bitterness. You don't owe your enemies anything, but you owe it to yourself to forgive them. It's a lesson I've learned the hard way.

I can share a story which might help demonstrate this. When I was younger, a bunch of guys just randomly picked me up and beat the living hell out of me. I was really messed up and they only stopped because help came. When we saw eachother, they were scared because of how well I handled myself during the fight - and because I didn't show them any sign of fear. But I was really shaken by the experience. I probably had PTSD from it, because other events in my life (stopping fights, witnessing gangs attack eachother) later brought me back to that fight mentally and I would have to take care of myself for a while. The next year though, I went to a festival. And I ran into that same group of guys. I was with some of my friends. They started (crap) talking us, we started to (crap) talk them. Until I just stopped everyone and said, "Hey look. We can either beat the (crap) out of eachother, or we can hang out. I'd rather have a friend than an enemy." So for the rest of the festival, we hung out and talked. The next time I saw any of them, it was their "leader" of sorts at a friends birthday party. We made a joke about what had happened in the past then didn't speak much to one another.

Did things have to turn out that way? No, I made a choice. I think I gained more than I lost. And no, I had no interest in making a friend that day, and I didn't. That wasn't what was important.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Seytra on November 06, 2006, 05:49:15 am: @ bilbous: I see, I wasn't aware of these press gangs (though they seem to not be an option in Yliakum, given it's geography). I agree that rumors aren't "knowledge", but I interpreted the "vanishing" of people as truly traceless and without prelude (like someone simply giving no explanation for their char's disappearance, and instead just loging out), like an abduction by aliens. In this case, there would not even be a basis for rumors.

@ Monketh: Indeed the "Therefore" should have been an "Also".

I meant to say that
1) it requires some effort if a person actually wishes to leave without a trace (making arrangements for pick-up outside town, sneaking there, along with any luggage (almost everything must be left to stay), making sure the pick-uppers don't talk, etc.)
2) that effort would therefore not be expended without good reason, and thus rarely
3) unknown cults are very unlikely by themselves, especially if their interest focuses on one person only, who more than likely is unrelated to their cult
4) thus, people would, if they vanish, tend to neither be killed by such a cult, nor vanish without a trace, and instead simply pack their stuff and leave, to seek their fortune elsewhere. This is even more likely given that most PCs are at least semi-adventurously minded.
5) or, as bilbous mentioned, they would be taken away by some other means, which however have a prelude, and thus at least give basis for rumors.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 06, 2006, 06:25:45 am: Quote from: Seytra on November 06, 2006, 05:49:15 am
@ bilbous: I see, I wasn't aware of these press gangs (though they seem to not be an option in Yliakum, given it's geography). I agree that rumors aren't "knowledge", but I interpreted the "vanishing" of people as truly traceless and without prelude (like someone simply giving no explanation for their char's disappearance, and instead just loging out), like an abduction by aliens. In this case, there would not even be a basis for rumors.

The less information the more likely there will be rumors generatred due to speculation. If a lowly apprentice has had enough of his masters abuse he is likely to slip off in the night with a bundle of possesions (his and his masters) and whatever food he can find. Naturally he won't want to be discovered and will hide his escape. Supposing the level below is having a war with the level below that they may have press gangs to come up to this level and conscript travellers or just kidnap people for slave labor. Young women can be kidnapped and forced to work in brothels and whatnot.

Just because someone logs off never to re-appear does not mean you cannot make up stories to cover their absence. As far as people logging off in front of you goes you have to expect that it is going to happen and assume they walked out of sight. If you do not make allowances for such things your role play will always be disrupted. You have to be flexible enough not to let it phase you. Why should I make an in context excuse for an out of context action? It doesn't make sense, it just puts a spotlight on the out of context action. Logging off IS Out of context, ergo making an excuse for logging off is also out of context.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 06, 2006, 06:37:23 am: I understand what you're saying, Bilbous, but if you multiply by the number of people who just drop their characters, it gets unrealistic. I'm willing to say that it's highly unlikely that more than 5% of the population would have reason to disappear without a trace...
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 06, 2006, 06:49:54 am: True enough but immortal characters are also unrealistic as is not aging. Maybe they just died one to many times and the light was unable to fill them anymore. Or perhaps they reached perfection and gone to live with their god? From experience in this world, which is where realism originates, 100% of people die. Some come back to life after being clinically dead but that is extraordinary, they always die again later on. So what happened to that guy in your story that you aged to death? Did he go to the death realm and return as good as new or did he mysteriously cease to exist?

What I am saying is that some things have to be accepted as a given even if we don't like them because otherwise we have nothing or nothing but trouble.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 06, 2006, 06:56:54 am: Well, I'd be careful, because you're also saying, "Lots of things are bad, so we shouldn't even try to improve this one." Now, I know that's not what you meant, but my opinion is still that rather than accepting everything blindly we should strive to improve. I don't expect everyone to drop their alts just because I don't think it's a great idea, but I'm going to continue to not hide my disapproval in the hopes that it will make people think about how flippant creation of alts affects the RP and the community.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zorbels on November 06, 2006, 07:30:12 am: Quote from: Kalika
i ahd made an alt purely to avoid all of drama and still enjoy the game

I have made alt's and have enjoyed the game from another characters point of view. I have enjoyed playing characters with way different stories and personalities than my main character Zorbels. I have kept them to myself. I do this because I have had first hand experience when it comes to telling someone [Hey I actually play Zorbels as well as this character].

At first I felt like I owed it to my friends to be honest and let them know. That all changed when I produced an alt and told no one it was me. I realised how I could actually settle for getting into another character and really feeling the personality, seeing Yliakum from their point of view. I created a new life and was free to make choices I couldn't otherwise with Zorbels, due to her character traits. I didn't have interuptions and provoke OOC talk with my character anymore. I approached people with the mentality that I was meeting them for the first time. I enjoyed new role-plays and grew to respect certain players because I could see them in a new light.

These Alt's = characters still live amoung you all in planeshift and I feel I have done a good job with them if no one has guessed who the player behind the face might be. The reason I feel good about that is because your seeing what should be ...... Characters in planeshift. Not the face behind the player. This to me is in no way wrong. I have never used my alt's to purposely find out information for another character and all that sorts of bull. I certainly would never use my character to hurt someone's feeling in RL or to spy on people OOC'ly. People who do that are most likely unhappy and depressed looking to drag you down with them. They will only if you let them. You will find that everywhere in life though. Even Yliakum is not safe from the "real World" and "Bad Personalities."

That however should not prevent me from having my alt stay secret. I feel that I make a difference in Yliakum with my characters and feel it is a positive effort. If someone doesn't like my one character but does another, that doesn't matter because again they are seeing what they are supposed to see and thats a character in planehshift with a personality that they get along with. Not the face behind the player that they hate so much.

It comes down to choice. Do you choose to tell that person who you are or not? Look at this thread and make your decisions wisely because in the end everyone will react different. There is no right or wrong answers in this debate, it is all how you personally feel about it. I will say this though ... to have an open mind and not a closed one is far more interesting and fulfilling.

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~

To the original topic that this thread started. I think it is absolutely stupid that a "old" character acting like a "new" character would take the time to inquire about game controls. I have heard it mentioned many times in this thread and I agree. I think it is ok to ask for directions being IC and role-playing a new comer to Yliakum. Asking about game controls is just a waste of time, and your really fooling nobody because you are just being paranoid that everyone can guess who you are. When in reality that person is most likely just role-playing with you and clueless. Your only wasting your time and theirs.

/me looks up and grows wide eye'd

Wow didn't mean to type that much, hope it was worth it. I am off to bed and thank you for taking the time to read this if you make it this far. I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: neko kyouran on November 06, 2006, 07:34:19 am: (below is in respondance to Phinehas' last post. While I was typing, Zorbels also posted, I'll go read what she wrote now.)

And I respect that opinoin of yours Phiney, but I'm also curious as to what your response to my example I have given is.

As a reminder:

Quote
For me, I have the main character, but, I'm sorry to say, I get bored with playing 1 character. Be it vastly unfinshed game mechanics or not, months and months, and countless hours, even if its just a few here and there at a time, after awhile, things do start to get a bit stale. Rather than letting the RP atmosphere suffer, I then decide it's time to put this character down and try something else.

This game is supposed to be fun, not a second life. So after 3-4 months, as that's how long it normally takes for me to start to get bored and the value of my RP starts to degrade, I send my main off an exploration adventure. Then I crate a fresh character and start a different role. To keep it fresh, to have fun.

This isn't to say that I don't bring back my adventuring characters. And I make sure to bring them back in a way that fits with the game in a RP way. That is, not to simply start playing them one day after a "hiatus" of a few months, and have them act like everything is normal, just as they left it.

So my question for thought is, would you rather have people not play alts, and gradually watch as thier fun and motivation dries up to the point that their RP suffers, maybe to the point where they just quit playing the game altogether, or would you rather have people use alts, and keep the RP atmosphere fresh and lively? And when they feel like playing their older characters again, they bring them back and the good times continue. Maybe they bring back tales of their adventures, why they have been away, maybe searching for something, etc.

To be quite honest, since the day I made my first char, I've only used 3, all on the same account. I do have a fourth, but that isn't for RP purposes. I've even had my three characters interact with each other a little bit, to spice things up. It's what keeps the game fun for me. It allows me to try things that would be way out of character if I only used one.

I'm sorry to say that playing one character, to me at least, doesn't keep the fun for me. Maybe it's due to the current developement of the game, maybe its just a flaw in what makes me, me. I use alts as a way to keep the game fresh and fun and lively, not just for me, but with the people that interact with my characters as well. I'm sure they would rather have me using a few different characters to keep my RP up, rather than me just use one, and watch as I get bored and start to let the RP slip, probably to the point where they'd not want to be around my character any longer.

Thoughts?

Edit, after reading what zorbels put, erm yeah, what she said. :thumbup:
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 06, 2006, 07:44:26 am: 304739 accounts = 1218956 possible characters at 4/account (I saw somewhere.) Let us say for arguments sake that 2/3s of the accounts are inactive. These numbers are straight out of my hat. That still leaves 406318 possible characters(rounded down.) If every account used only one character the population would be 101579 (again rounded down.) That would make hydlaa about 70,000 and oja about 30,000 judging from their relative sizes and not accounting for rural dwellers. The towns are fairly small by todays standards but not so small that someone could not go missing.Now these numbers ane undoubtable inaccurate except the # accounts i took from laanx statistics page. We can probably assume that more the 2/3s of accounts are inactive. Inevitably though the average characters per account is greater than 1 for active accounts. I feel that these population numbers for the towns are of the proper order. Looked at another way there is an average of about 120 people online at any given moment. To go much further into the analysis I would need to know the average connection time. I had three characters on today at various times only ever one at a time and I have seven characters over three accounts.

I've sort of lost track of where this is going, nowhere, I guess, but perhaps someone can help me out with further analysis.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zorbels on November 06, 2006, 07:50:41 am: /me head spins as she reads bilbous post

Gah, Numbers! I think i knew what you were getting at ..... Wait here it comes......

Oh look a butterfly!

/me chases the butterfly

I look forward to your futher analysis bilbous.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 06, 2006, 08:48:54 am: Uh... I think the devs know exactly how many characters there are. You could probably get the number from someone on IRC.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 06, 2006, 03:31:34 pm: Quote from: zorbels on November 06, 2006, 07:50:41 am
/me chases the butterfly

Stop it!!! You'll cause a hurricane! Or make a 90 year old actress marry a 13 year old actor!
Oh wait she was younger than that...and...he was older.

I guess my point was that the community is not so small that you can know everyone and nobody could disappear without notice. It is true that your 5% could be considered to be regulars and would have visibility akin to the noble classes of yore. Still if the king were to cause someone to disappear it might be very dangerous to talk about it.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Soulless_Body on November 08, 2006, 05:43:28 am: There is nothing wrong with asking the way around as a new characte... I mean it is role playing, and it would be odd for a newly born person to already know his way around before he has seen anything?

And yeah asking for the controls is wrong, i agrree
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Peacer on November 08, 2006, 08:30:52 am: Quote from: Soulless_Body on November 08, 2006, 05:43:28 am
There is nothing wrong with asking the way around as a new characte... I mean it is role playing, and it would be odd for a newly born person to already know his way around before he has seen anything?

And yeah asking for the controls is wrong, i agrree

hmm, depends if your character lived in hydlaa, and it's not always you roleplay a newly born person ;p... actually in the minor part of the situations it is.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Seytra on November 09, 2006, 03:13:58 am: I guess this means that the vast majority of characters online are in fact secret alts of players, judging by the overwhelming number of players who, by their own statements, actively indulge in secret alts. :-\

Reading Zorbel's post, I still don't comprehend what the issue is, though. A new alt, secret or not, is always someone different from the main alt. Often enough the alt is someone with a more or less opposite alignment compared to the first char (and I won't deny that this is the hardest to keep separate, both for the player, and the other players. In fact, I think it's the only constellation that can create problems).
I still fail to see why generally, telling your friends about your new alt would change anything, or change the ways you can go to develop your new alt? After all, it will not help you separate them, and their knowledge, nor will it help you in knowing that you already know the other chars (so how can your mentality be affected by it?). Or are you so concerned about the RP of RPers who can't tell your alts apart? I would expect that merely reminding them would suffice, at least if you consistently do a proper job on separating your alts and their knowledge. And don't dare to ever mix up any information or even feelings for any of your secret alts (in fact, I more than doubt that many of you pretenders are any good at avoiding such mixups).

Also, what are you referring to by
Quote from: zorbels on November 06, 2006, 07:30:12 am
I didn't have interuptions and provoke OOC talk with my character anymore. I approached people with the mentality that I was meeting them for the first time.
?

It almost sounds like you are hiding from other players? It may be just me, but I don't usually get many interruptions (and if, everyone has as of yet understood when I reply that I'm in some RP and thus not available for /tell chatter, or even a mere "Sorry, I'm busy"), nor do I know what "OOC talk with my character" is. Is it the usual OOC stuff that you get when you have gotten to know other players from lots of ingame encounters (/tells with greetings)? If yes, then I find that not very bothersome, but maybe you are on everyone's BL and thus receive 100 welcome messages each time you log in (I certainly don't)? Maybe the problem is, in fact, OOC discipline, or rather lack thereof, that players use PS as IM replacement instead of as an RPG, and that is bothering you?

Whenever I see something like:
Quote from: zorbels on November 06, 2006, 07:30:12 am
If someone doesn't like my one character but does another, that doesn't matter because again they are seeing what they are supposed to see and thats a character in planehshift with a personality that they get along with. Not the face behind the player that they hate so much.
I can't help but suspect lack of IC / OOC separation, and / or lack of establishing confidence in your IC / OOC separating ability. Maybe if everyone were, for once, consistently using parenthesis for OOC, these problems would go away?

The way it stands, there usually are noticably more newbies online than players I know (or rather, seeing this discussion, there seem to be, anyway), so I really never lack opportunity to meet people whom I don't know. Or is PS just full of pretenders, and except for those 10 newbies with crap names that show up every day everyone is always the same? That'd stink. Thanks to you pretenders I now doubt any newbie who has as much as a proper name, let alone knows about RP. I won't be wasting my time explaining RP or anything that might be found in the manual / ingame help / or website / forums anymore, so maybe it's even got an upside. ::) Kindly pretend to have RTFM, and that "someone else has already told you how to RP" or somesuch, but don't waste my time for your pretense! >:(
And here was thinking PS was attracting better RPers recently.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 09, 2006, 03:23:55 am: Seytra, you've ignored a lot of the good points people have made in response to you. You still haven't shown that there's even a problem.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: bilbous on November 09, 2006, 04:43:46 am: Problems, like beauty, are in the eyes of the beholder. I am sure Thorian doesn't think he has a problem with Harnquist but I am sure Harnquist thinks he has a problem with Thorian.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 09, 2006, 05:49:12 am: Quote from: bilbous on November 09, 2006, 04:43:46 am
Problems, like beauty, are in the eyes of the beholder. I am sure Thorian doesn't think he has a problem with Harnquist but I am sure Harnquist thinks he has a problem with Thorian.

Uh... it seems more like Harnquist owes Thorian something, or that Thorian has some sort of underground connection that would lead Harnquist to be intimidated. The only people who would have a "problem" with Thorian are the adventurers he's ripped off.

Well, them and Bjorid. And Brintec. And probably Harnquist. I don't think the local guards would be too fond of him either. And he's been staying in the tavern for a really long time so chances are the cook is fed up with him as well.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zorbels on November 09, 2006, 11:09:34 am: Quote from: Seytra
It almost sounds like you are hiding from other players?

What? Are you kidding me? I just gave examples of good reasons on why I personally like to have my identity unknown. I think enhancement of the role-play is a damn good reason. I don't have to I hide from anyone. I don't have anything I am running away from in planeshift. Why do you assume people need to hide anyway? Further more why is that such an issue ... that is something about your posts that I can't seem to comprehend.

Anyway I am going to be honest with you. It is hard not to be offended with the way you "talk" to another person. You come across as though you are talking down to them. This bit is rather rude. *Points down* Your opinoin yes, but still rude none the less. If it wasn't meant that way then I would be pleased to be wrong.

Quote from: Seytra
And here was thinking PS was attracting better RPers recently.

I am sorry but you have me completely wrong from what I have read in your post and your analysis of my post. Your post seems to have a defensive tone to it and it is something I am not understanding? I have read your long replies and have noted what your point of view is. This last post was nothing more than a re-run of your others in this thread. I have said my peace with my first post and don't think there is more at this time that I need to add.

[Edit] I missed something I would like to address with you Seytra. I am in no way. shape, or form am I the best role-player around. I have my down falls. But I am NOT I repeat NOT having a "lack of establishing confidence in your IC / OOC separating ability" as you put it. Actually I am vey confident when it comes to playing different characters and separating IC/OOC and RL issue's/Game issues. I have learned how to be confident with this over the last year and a half in planeshift. With trial and error of course. You shouldn't be so quick to judge those in which you know nothing about and one post isn't grounds for you to pick apart who I am or question how I role-play, or imply that I have troubles with role-playing.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Garile on November 09, 2006, 12:09:47 pm: Seytra there is something really wrong with how you are going about this.

First of what exactly is the problem now? Sure there are reasons to tell other people. Does that mean it is mandatory? No. Does it even mean it should be done? No, becuase there are also many reasons already mentioned not to tell everyone about your other characters.

Does this automaticly mean someone is a scammer that is hiding on another alt or something? No and it's rather rude to imply that has to be the reason specially when so many other reasons have already been posted.

One character has nothing to do with the other. That the character is played by the same player has nothing to do with you unless you suspect deliberate OOC use of information although I don't see many scenario's where this would really be worth the trouble. If a player doesn't decide to tell you their alts and that way you lose contact or feel left out this is unfortunate but that is the players choice and that players right.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 09, 2006, 12:16:30 pm: I think the issue is that Seytra sees fun as something you have with your friends and something that you keep from people you don't like. Basically, there are people he doesn't like, and he doesn't want to be nice to them. He doesn't necessarily want to hurt or punish them, he just doesn't want to do anything that has the remote possibility of bringing them happiness.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zorbels on November 09, 2006, 07:38:20 pm: Quote from: Seytra
I won't be wasting my time explaining RP or anything that might be found in the manual / ingame help / or website / forums anymore,

::) Thank goodness because that would be one looooooooong post that I wouldn't waste my time reading. Who says you need to explain it anyway? I know I am not asking, and I don't think the thread is named "help us Seytra we need you to tell us how to role-play." So no worries don't stress about it.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Seytra on November 09, 2006, 09:17:37 pm: It seems I've expressed myself pretty badly.
Quote from: zorbels on November 09, 2006, 11:09:34 am
Quote from: Seytra
It almost sounds like you are hiding from other players?
What? Are you kidding me? I just gave examples of good reasons on why I personally like to have my identity unknown. I think enhancement of the role-play is a damn good reason. I don't have to I hide from anyone. I don't have anything I am running away from in planeshift. Why do you assume people need to hide anyway?
I don't assume you need to hide away. That's (one of) the points. I think that there is no reason to do so, unless there is a problem with you (the general "you", not the pointing at "you").
As I said, I don't see how the secrecy can at all enhance your RP, except for a highly limited set of circumstances, which will FAICT not apply to the vast majority of all alts created. As I said, the only circumstance I can see where the OOC knowledge of the player behind the alt would be a problem is if that alt is evil. However, this also only truly applies if the other RPer isn't yet confident that you indeed manage to fully separate the knowledge of your alts (regardless of your actual ability).
Quote from: zorbels on November 09, 2006, 11:09:34 am
Further more why is that such an issue ... that is something about your posts that I can't seem to comprehend.
I have stated that in one of my previous posts: I simply do not want to RP with whom I dislike. I don't necessarily have to even dislike them, it may just as well be the case that I feel that my and the other RPer's views of what RP should be differ too greatly for me to enjoy it. I want to avoid them, nothing else, so that I won't find myself having gotten involved with some RP that I then need to quit when finding out the RP style doesn't match, or when I discover the same problems I have had with that player before, under another alt of them. I don't want to waste my (and the other player's) time on something that is doomed to failure, and which will end up frustrating me, and possibly the other RPer. I think that this, too, is a very good reason, no?

By hiding your alts, you take away this option from me. I thus am forced to endlessly rediscover, for each and every single one of your alts, that our RP styles don't match, or that I dislike the personality of the player behind the alt. This is why I think that this is a very bad thing to do, and more than slightly rude / dishonest.
Quote from: zorbels on November 09, 2006, 11:09:34 am
Anyway I am going to be honest with you. It is hard not to be offended with the way you "talk" to another person. You come across as though you are talking down to them. This bit is rather rude. *Points down* Your opinoin yes, but still rude none the less. If it wasn't meant that way then I would be pleased to be wrong.
Quote from: Seytra
And here was thinking PS was attracting better RPers recently.
I am sorry but you have me completely wrong from what I have read in your post and your analysis of my post.
I didn't get you wrong, but I obviously expressed myself badly. I didn't imply that you were a bad RPer. Yes, initially I thought that use of hidden alts would be something that is done only by those whom I regard as bad RPer. It is also true that I still think that several of those who also use hidden alts are bad RPers, and that there still is a likelyhood of finding both in one player. It furthermore is a fact that this sort of sneakiness previously used to be exclusive to cheaters and the like.
But it is obvious that I have to acknowledge that good RPers have come to use hidden alts as well. And I don't regard you as bad RPer. Suno Reign and Zanzibar, amongst others, though, I do regard as bad RPers, but I think that I have expressed that in my other posts already.

However, that quote of mine wasn't even supposed to imply that anyone was a bad RPer. In fact, it would, if anything, imply that many of you are decent RPers at least:
Your post has, to my disappointment, made it clear to me that there are many players, not only bad RPers, who are using secret alts. My observation recently was that the number of characters wich are RPd well has increased. Before reading yout post, I had assumed that PS was, in fact, attracting more decent RPers and thus less bad / non RPers than it used to, because the number of new characters had remained the same, but a higher percentage of them seemed to be played by at least decent RPers. Since your post obviates that most of these new characters are in fact alts of long-term players of PS, the conclusion therefore is that the ratio of actually new RPers to bad / non-RPers PS attracts has remained the same, or even gotten worse.

BTW, you have been with PS for too long for "recently attracting" to reven remotely apply to you, so even if I were to assert that every single new player was a dismally bad RPer (which I don't), that couldn't possibly extend to you.
Quote from: zorbels on November 09, 2006, 11:09:34 am
Your post seems to have a defensive tone to it and it is something I am not understanding? I have read your long replies and have noted what your point of view is. This last post was nothing more than a re-run of your others in this thread. I have said my peace with my first post and don't think there is more at this time that I need to add.
Of course it has. Simply because I am defending my points. I,too, had made them previously, and still am convinced that they are valid, so all that's left is defending them. The more or less only addition was that I said how my points apply to your points, and to express my disappointment on what seems to have become the status quo in PS, and my asking all of you who use hidden alts to not "go along with it" when I, or some other RPer, offer to explain some of the concepts of RP or PS. You know them already, and going along with it is just wasting time, yours and mine. And if you waste my time in order to uphold a masquerade that I think shouldn't be allowed, then that is, obviously, even worse.
Quote from: zorbels on November 09, 2006, 11:09:34 am
[Edit] I missed something I would like to address with you Seytra. I am in no way. shape, or form am I the best role-player around. I have my down falls. But I am NOT I repeat NOT having a "lack of establishing confidence in your IC / OOC separating ability" as you put it. Actually I am vey confident when it comes to playing different characters and separating IC/OOC and RL issue's/Game issues. I have learned how to be confident with this over the last year and a half in planeshift. With trial and error of course. You shouldn't be so quick to judge those in which you know nothing about and one post isn't grounds for you to pick apart who I am or question how I role-play, or imply that I have troubles with role-playing.
I don't imply that you have trobles with RPing. In fact, that is precisely what I was trying to say: you can be the best RPer in all of PS, and still another player may very well distrust your RP abilities.
The problem is simply that the other player hasn't RPd with you much yet, and thus doesn't yet have experience to judge you by. Therefore, that player may not be certain that you can separate IC and OOC, or the IC realities of two of your alts even if you can.

To counter this, there are two options:
1) establish that confidence
2) hide all your alts

The first takes time, obviously. It is, however, the way that will be best in the long run, because by openly standing by your alts, you already state that you're not trying to hide, and thus it is less likely that you are hiding anything else (It really is the reasoning behind "Who lies once, will not be believed, etc.").
The upside is that this time, once spent, automatically applies to all of your alts, present or future.

Thes second doesn't take time: by pretending to be a new player, the other won't question whether or not you can keep IC from other IC. However, and I think that is overlooked most of the time, the other player will still need to build up confidence in your ability to separate IC from OOC, just like in 1). And this will have to happen for every single alt of yours, so it is in fact wasting time to the other players.

The "lack of establishing confidence in your IC / OOC separating ability" solely refers to how other players percieve you, it does in no way make assumptions on your actual qualities as RPer. What I am trying to convey is simply that just because you are a good RPer, others won't magically know that. Therefore, they cannot know that something that you said fully IC-ly, was, in fact, fully IC. And this is what makes it possible that a good RPer can get OOC troubles even though they were perfeclty IC.
If you trash-talk them IC-ly, how can they know that it is merely your char, and that you, as player, don't think that way? They cannot, and since the ratio of good RPers to that of bad RPers / griefers is small, they in fact must assume you are an OOC jerk. Only once they know that you are a good RPer they can cease doubting you.
That is what I was referring to as "establishing confidence / trust".
Quote from: zorbels on November 09, 2006, 07:38:20 pm
Quote from: Seytra
I won't be wasting my time explaining RP or anything that might be found in the manual / ingame help / or website / forums anymore,
::) Thank goodness because that would be one looooooooong post that I wouldn't waste my time reading. Who says you need to explain it anyway? I know I am not asking, and I don't think the thread is named "help us Seytra we need you to tell us how to role-play." So no worries don't stress about it.
I was referring to ingame. I am sure that you have done the very same to a lot of new players (or hidden alts) as well. When you think that that new player has the potential to become a good RPer, then you (or at least I, anyway) offer to give them a bit of startup information, without necessarily insisting on the "RTFM" routine, so that they run less risk of being dragged down by bad RPers or being dismissed as clueless by other RPers.
With, however, knowing that the vast majority of those promising "players" are nothing more than alts, I can't help but feel my time deliberately getting wasted, and thus I won't do that anymore. Yes, this is an accusation to those using hidden alts.
Quote from: Garile on November 09, 2006, 12:09:47 pm
First of what exactly is the problem now? Sure there are reasons to tell other people. Does that mean it is mandatory? No. Does it even mean it should be done? No, becuase there are also many reasons already mentioned not to tell everyone about your other characters.
I think that those reasons apply only to the vast minority of all cases, and therefore are in a stark contrast to the obviously widespread use of hidden alts.
Quote from: Garile on November 09, 2006, 12:09:47 pm
Does this automaticly mean someone is a scammer that is hiding on another alt or something? No and it's rather rude to imply that has to be the reason specially when so many other reasons have already been posted.
No. I initially thought so, as I said above, but I don't anymore.
Quote from: Garile on November 09, 2006, 12:09:47 pm
One character has nothing to do with the other. That the character is played by the same player has nothing to do with you unless you suspect deliberate OOC use of information although I don't see many scenario's where this would really be worth the trouble. If a player doesn't decide to tell you their alts and that way you lose contact or feel left out this is unfortunate but that is the players choice and that players right.
The loss of contact was more Phinehas' concern (though I think that it is valid), and I don't really feel left out. On the contrary, as I stated, I simply want to avoid the players with whom I know I wouldn't have fun RPing. I don't see what there is so hard to get about that, neither do I see why that wish would be so immensely incomprehensible.
I further admit that I would be severely disappointed if I were to learn that someone with whom I had RP'd for a long time was in fact a mere alt of someone else with whom I have RP'd for a long term as well, simply because of the obvious lack of honesty (or lack of trust in my RP abilities) that this shows. It is obvious that most people don't see anything wrong with that. It also is quite possible that I am biased by the bad experiences with hidden alts that I have had (being, obviously, on the receiving end of it's negative results, just as Phinehas).

So, the only thing left for me to do is to concede defeat. I'm obviously more or less alone with my views, and even Zorbels who stated to initially have felt the same has since long come to be part of what I still feel is the problem, instead of the solution. I still think it's wrong, and will ultimately hurt PS, but if even Karyuu supports this way of conduct, then it's obvious that I'll have to put up with it. So... congratulations. At least now I know what RP in PS has become. One less illusion is a good thing, after all, no?
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zanzibar on November 09, 2006, 11:24:55 pm: Quote from: Seytra on November 09, 2006, 09:17:37 pm
By hiding your alts, you take away this option from me. I thus am forced to endlessly rediscover, for each and every single one of your alts, that our RP styles don't match, or that I dislike the personality of the player behind the alt. This is why I think that this is a very bad thing to do, and more than slightly rude / dishonest.

I think that if you were truly such a good judge of character, you wouldn't be so passionate over this issue. More likely is that you recognize that you won't always know who the player is behind the character just based on RP style, and you simply don't want to play with people who you don't like in 'real life'.

Quote from: Seytra on November 09, 2006, 09:17:37 pm
But it is obvious that I have to acknowledge that good RPers have come to use hidden alts as well. And I don't regard you as bad RPer. Suno Reign and Zanzibar, amongst others, though, I do regard as bad RPers, but I think that I have expressed that in my other posts already.

At least Suno and I don't pretend that someone's character doesn't exist just because we don't like them in real life. To me, that's a much stronger indicator of a bad roleplayer, and it's more than a little bit childish.

Quote from: Seytra on November 09, 2006, 09:17:37 pm
I simply want to avoid the players with whom I know I wouldn't have fun RPing.

That is not the sense I'm getting from you. I think that if the differences are as strong as you suggest, then you (as a decent roleplayer who knows what he likes and doesn't like) should be able to tell if someone is a bad roleplayer within a minute of steady contact. This leads me to conclude that the problem you have is not the problem you're stating. Because of other things you've said and the way you've said it, I think that this issue is far more personal for you than you want to let on. The fact that you're insulting anyone who disagrees with you only adds weight to that conclusion.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Karyuu on November 10, 2006, 01:05:14 am: Seytra: Even though I understand what you are saying, PlaneShift is not so small a game world as to allow people to pick and choose so extensively who they want to roleplay with. I mean sure, you can definitely want to play with a select few people, but this world exists so that you can have the maximum interaction possible with various types in Yliakum and not just a secluded portion. This sort of limitation that you are placing on yourself, again while understandable, is not the best approach IMHO.
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: Phinehas on November 10, 2006, 03:54:12 am: *Matt, with a small, robed, annoyed man with a cane on his shoulder.*

Although I'm not so passionate as Seytra about this, I can definitely see his point. I mean, I've come across people who've done things that I think are downright bad RP, but when I /tell them about it, or mention ti OOC so that everyone can benefit from a little pointer(no, I don't think I'm the uber-teacher of RP, so don't start) they get mad. It's happened more than once, and it does affect my enjoying the RP. For one, now I know that whoever it is behind the character I'm RPing with dislikes me OOC, plus I know that they're liable at any minute to do something that's going to plummet the RP to the depths of "badness". So basically, I try to avoid them as much as possible without doing anything ridiculous or completely OOC. Now, if they create an alt, and after some time in which I've been RPing with that alt, I find out who it is OOC, I'm going to be uncomfortable. Once again, I'll be aware that they could at any time(or maybe already have) done something to affect the quality of the RP, and also I know that they harbor a distaste for me. The fact that they hid who they were, even though it may not have been solely to do with me, is still going to make me frustrated and/or very uncomfortable. I'm not saying everyone feels like this, or should, but I do. Having said that, I do understand Karyuu's point, and that's the reason I still do go in-game...
Title: Re: Old Player, New Character
Post by: zorbels on November 10, 2006, 08:27:28 am: OK Seytra in light of your post I will agree to disagree with you. I understand that you don't mean to offend now and I also get what you are saying to a certain degree. Thank you for clearing some of this up. I guess I don't agree with it fully but I am also not against how you feel. I just don't see how to prevent what you dislike so much from happening.

I fully agree with how karyuu explained her thoughts, and could not have worded it any better. I second her post. For some reason I feel the need to make this clear ... Please do not take this as me joining up with others to come against you, because I don't think that is what we are trying to accomplish. It is just difference of opinoin. No matter how much we discuss it I don't think either party is going to see eye to eye. The key I think is to respect each others decision on the matter. I am willing to respect yours but you must also be willing to respect mine. Bed time for me ..... happy postings.