PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Datruth on December 24, 2006, 03:38:41 pm
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I'm not an expert here...
I came with a plea to the forums, to ask a simple question.
What can, I, or anyone else, do here, to help?
And i mean really help, not just let our concerns be shared, which is simple... but help.
I want to accomplish something in this thread, besides talking.
Basically i have 3 goals.
1) Education
I want to eduacte myself more about the problem.
I want to know who to talk to and how to make a difference.
What exactly is the problem... and who is instigating it?
Is there a group, or person, who may be able to stop this now?
2) Support:
I want to support them in some way.
Whether that be monetary, spirtually, or maybe through letters.
Speaking of letters... who might we send one to?
Could the people recieve it?
What about the president of sudan?
Can we send any other type of support?
3) Recruit:
See if i can get anyone, to help me, along the way.
It doesn't have to be anyone here, it could be in RL, or maybe a senator.
Maybe my representative can help.
But find some other people to walk with me, through this. It's a big task, one person alone isn't enough, we need more.
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So first things first.... knowledge, I should share what i have thus far, i hope you all share your info as well.
The website to coordinate our energy:
http://www.savedarfur.org/content
Here is a nice read, about the conflict.. please, if you do nothing else, read this:
http://www.savedarfur.org/pages/background
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Know your enemies:
The sudanese government itself, and the Janjaweed militias. An alliance that has caused most of the destruction of the civilians.
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Support:
All i found and thought of was finding a support group, near your area, if you are in the U.S.
Suprisingly, my small city did have one, maybe i'll find that person and help organize an event.
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Final thoughts:
“400,000 dead, 2.5 million displaced, 10,000 dying every month”
The latest UN estimates say that between 10 and 15 thousand people are dying every month.
“Every few months we are driven away from one refugee camp to the other, so far in the desert where nothing, nothing at all exists. This is no way for a human being to live. No way to live in such a shocking place – uncultivated, waterless, treeless and barren region...! Everything is burning, Lord, around me, around us ... in me, in us ... Everything is barren, hell, hell...!” ~~ A darfarian women
Fertile land continues to decrease as desertification (growth of the Sahara Desert) becomes more of a problem. Tensions between nomadic Arab tribes and African farming communities began, in part, because of the scarcity of usable land.
As a response to the long-standing abuse from the government, rebels in Darfur rose in opposition to the government, attacking a government installation. President Al-Bashir responded by giving governmental support and money to Islamic militias, also known as the Janjaweed – or ‘Devils on Horseback’ in Arabic – to combat the rebels and civilians in Darfur instead of sending the military to intervene.
These militias have been accused of ethnic cleansing by systematically eliminating entire communities. Government air strikes frequently precede the militias’ vicious raids. Villages are razed; women, men, and children are raped, tortured, and murdered. The Janjaweed also target and destroy Darfurian food and water supplies, threatening the victims' hopes for their future survival.
The Janjaweed militias steal cattle, destroy wells, and pursue a scorched-earth policy, where crops and buildings are destroyed. (UNICEF and the New York Times, 2005).
Civilians who have survived village destruction have fled to camps lacking adequate food, shelter, sanitation, and health care in Darfur and across the border in neighboring Chad. Hundreds of thousands of Darfurians are at risk of starvation and disease.
“Every day, women are sent outside the IDP camps to seek firewood and water, despite the constant risk of rape at the hands of the Janjaweed. Should men be available to venture out of the camps, they risk castration and murder. So families decide that rape is the lesser evil. It is a crime that families even have to make such a choice. Often women are sexually assaulted within the supposed safety of the IDP camps. Nowhere is really safe.” – Brian Steidle, former AU advisor
80% of the children under five years old are suffering from severe malnutrition. Seventy percent of the deaths in the camps are children under five.
Children, as well as young women, are abducted by Janjaweed, often with the complicity of Sudanese troops. Women are often forced into sexual slavery, and young boys are made to watch over stolen livestock. (Amnesty, Save the Children).
Currently, the only security on the ground is an undermanned African Union (AU) force that cannot protect civilians or aid workers. Currently, the AU lacks adequate numbers of personnel and has limited logistical capacity. Currently, the AU’s mandate is to monitor the failed ceasefire in Darfur, not to protect civilians. Therefore, to be effective, the AU will need a stronger civilian protection mandate, a major increase in the number of troops on the ground, and a much larger logistical and monetary contribution from the UN, the EU, and NATO.
Despite some action on behalf of the world community, more action is needed. Ten thousand people are still dying every month, and if nothing is done, two million people could perish. We need to act if we want this crisis to end.
Look beyond the headlines, understand that a genocide is occurring right now, look for how we can support a solution – and ways in which we may be contributing to the problem.
These people need our help. As humans, we owe them our support and prayers. As Americans we owe them our courage and experience. We must do something to help those who suffer, and this time we can.
~~~~All quotes taken from the Save Darfur Powerpoint presentation, a must download.
Arm yourself with knowledge.... post a response on how we can help... actually help guys, don't b.s me.... and recruit each other to the side of the innocent civilians.
Thank you for your time, as always.
~~Datruth
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Restound have you turned into Angelina Jolie or Bono?
Save Africa!!
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There's not much we can do short of using force tbh. If the people want to kill each other we can't stop them, the UN is once again proving useless.
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Datruth,
I'm planning on studying international relations, and the Darfur tragedy is definately one of the most pressing issues in contemporary int. relations.
One of the biggest detriments to solving this problem is our current foreign policy program. Unfortunately, as we all know, the Bush administration has plugged all of our resources into a empty cause. Dafur, then becomes something of a back burner issue to the general public and representives in congress as we debate over continuing to occupy Iraq.
But I sincerely think that genocide in Darfur can be solved by the three criteria you laid out. The biggest problem is education. It is in my opinion that people just don't want to trouble themselves with the grim truth of the world. Ironically, politics and international issues have become so prevailent in society today, that people are afraid to talk about them. In America, we live in a society of differing opinions, and if you can't uphold your own, you're belittled as a person. So, people just use slogans, and avoid arguing and educating themselves for the sake of saving face.
In this light, all we can do is keep on pressing how important this issue is. Make it a new hot button issue so it can gain attention and be another item of unspeakable controversy. Looking back at all the historical changes in the world, they all take place because of public awareness.
But now I just feel like I'm rambling, so I'l stop. :-X
Check out the amnesty international website, too. Dafur is one of their biggest causes. :thumbup:
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Thanks Raiyx, for your awesome post.
And i know what you mean, our politicians are centrists and rarely commit to anything lol.
I loved that slogan line of yours, i never really knew what those were for, your reason is good to me lol ;D
And yea, education is the problem, people know about Darfur.. but they don't know what's really happeneing.
I can bet if we asked people on the street about it, they might be like... yea, that place... but they won't tell you what's happening there.
It's sad, that we're in IRaq, wasting our time, our money, our troops, our sons, our daughters, our fathers, our mothers.
We had no reason to go there, all have been b.s, and the weapons contractors are rolling in dough.
Not to mention halliburton which won something like 95% of the contracts given in IRaq....
Does it help to know the VP is part of haliburton?
Corporation are stopping us from helping the world, i mean i love wal mart, but i hate haliburton, oil companies, and the RIAA/ MPAA.
Tell me anything you learn my friend Raiyx, i'd be happy to listen, feel free to post anything you learned in your studies.
Every month.... 10,000 people die there.
Let this be the last month.
~~Datruth
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Datruth, I have to say that I'm touched by your compassion. The idea that we can't do anything to help the people in Darfur can be both discomforting and comforting at the same time. Discomforting for the ones with the ambition to contribute to a solution for the problem, and comforting for the ones who realise that all the effort of writing letters, participating in demonstrations and donating money most likely won't have much effect. Sadly as it is. Personally, when I think of helping other people in need, I rather go for the man next door, leaving global problems to the global leaders. Foreign affairs is a very important issue when I decide who to vote at though. If the western world stopped protecting their markets, and stopped forcing third world countries to open up theirs, it would help something.
If the people want to kill each other we can't stop them, the UN is once again proving useless.
It's not a case of two peoples who want to kill each other. It's genocide. One group is pretty much defenceless against people who aim for ethnical cleansing. IMO it's a task of the international community to defend the defenceless from being slaughtered.
The UN does what it can, but it simply lacks forces. Right now, the UN can't do much more than to build refugee camps. It's the question if you can blame the organisation or rather its member states.
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1) Education
I want to eduacte myself more about the problem.
I want to know who to talk to and how to make a difference.
What exactly is the problem... and who is instigating it?
Is there a group, or person, who may be able to stop this now?
The problem is that people like to kill each other it seems. No matter what the reason. This time it comes down to ethnic cleansing. Different groups that could surely live in harmony have decided not to. The Janjaweed who are Arabic are trying to wipe out several african tribes in Darfur. The only group who can stop it are the instigators, although if the sudanese government were to stop their support of the Janjaweed it would probably have a good effect.
2) Support:
I want to support them in some way.
Whether that be monetary, spirtually, or maybe through letters.
Speaking of letters... who might we send one to?
Could the people recieve it?
What about the president of sudan?
Can we send any other type of support?
The problem with this situation is that tere is little you can do. The US wont help at this time because they have already stretched their military quite badly. The African Union are probably best placed to do something about it. They just dont seem to want to.
As for sending letters to the president of Sudan; That wouldnt achieve much considering his government is heavily backing the Janjaweed. the only support you could offer would be charities working in the region.
3) Recruit:
See if i can get anyone, to help me, along the way.
It doesn't have to be anyone here, it could be in RL, or maybe a senator.
Maybe my representative can help.
But find some other people to walk with me, through this. It's a big task, one person alone isn't enough, we need more.
The US government has actually declared that this does constitute genocide but strangely the UN has not. Im not sure of the reason for this. The best way to get people involved is simply to educate them and hopefully they will want to act.
[Posted remade because I was very drunk when I wrote it.... xmas and all ;) ]
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I mentioned the two parties in my original post my friend, but your right at not knowing exactly who to back.
You can't back the government, and you can't necessarily back the u.s which hasn't sent troops to the region yet.
So who do you go to for help, the African national army was mentioned in an article i read, they are very very undermanned and paid.
Maybe we should back them, and see how we can help them.
And thank you hitancrias, for your kind sentiments, your words hit home again, and i agree, we should focus on our neibhors first, they are alot easier to help and support.
In this case though, i must try and help the defenseless in some way i can, anyway really. Even if it ends in futile effort, some effort by my part must be tried.
Thank you all for your replies so far, help me to help stop this problem, i'm still lost in a confused world, wondering what to do next.
~~Datruth
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There's not much we can do short of using force tbh.
So true. It's beyond civilian help. And the sudanese government, well, not the best track record. They've pretty much backed one side of this fight. And before the inicial gencide began to take place, are beleived to have sent a small force there and killed a few people. The United States won't admit to a genocide being comitted in darfur, because it'll have to act once it does. It's the same with not admiting to the armenian genocide in 1915. The US wants to keep trade up with turkey, so they denie it. I hate to say it, but todays governments happily choose money over a life, and even many lives, and whole races of men. As long as that's true, there isn't much anyone can do, and genocides will continue to go on.
I hope I put that into good wording, I usually have trouble with it.
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Does it help to know the VP is part of haliburton?
~~Datruth
Does it hurt any worse knowing our VP gets a bigger annual paycheck from Haliburton than he gets as VP?
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I agree with Hitancrias.
It really pains me to think of the injustices that are being done here. To think of a poor, starving family huddling together in their one-room huts, as a firing squad blows their brains out one by one... the children killed first, to stop them from running away, and to shock the parents into hesitating, so they can be slaughtered in turn. (Eh... I'm pretty messed-up though... it might just be me)
That's why I don't want to think about it, really. There's nothing I can do, so I'm content to lead my sheltered life, playing RPGs on high-powered laptops. Me having nightmares about a country I've barely heard of doesn't help anyone. Even if I become a politician, or a peacekeeper, there's ultimately nothing anyone can do if people want to kill each other. Until we have infrared satellites that can identify a crime being committed anywhere on the face of the earth and fry the criminal with a microwave beam at any time, 24/7, there's nothing anyone can do about it.
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Don't worry! The Paladins of Democracy are coming to rescue Sudan! The US Government will soon send their troops to defend freedom! Here are the poor ones that must be freed, and perhaps moved to the glorious land to contribute with its corporations in defense of democracy!
"Rich mineral resources which may be available in Sudan include: petroleum, natural gas, gold, silver, chrome, asbestos, manganese, gypsum, mica, zinc, iron, lead, uranium, copper, kaolin, cobalt, granite, nickel and tin.[19]" (Source: Wikipedia)
And don't forget, these people aren't the official goal... the official goal is to take down another dictator and implant a Democracy in Sudan!
This is the truth people! Lets praise the United States government!
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The United States won't admit to a genocide being comitted in darfur, because it'll have to act once it does.
It actually has, it's the U.N that won't admit to it, basically because if it tries to draft such a resolution, it knows someone will veto it, specifically china.
There a little commentary about this on the savedarfur website, and it find it interesting.
Finally America admits it's a Geoncide.... yet does very little.
Darn that whole Iraq war and our Dumass president for lying us into it.
If we only had the troops to help heal REAL problems, instead of lining corporate pockets.
~~Datruth
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What's happening in Darfur now isn't much different to what happened in Iraq (to the Kurds as one example) pre-invasion. If the USA invaded Sudan to stop this, we'd have the same situation as we have in Iraq now and people would be whining just as much.
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What's happening in Darfur now isn't much different to what happened in Iraq (to the Kurds as one example) pre-invasion. If the USA invaded Sudan to stop this, we'd have the same situation as we have in Iraq now and people would be whining just as much.
I 100% disagree with that, besides the Janjaweed who are in cohoots with the government, the people would love us.
In Iraq, 10,000 people weren't being killed every month.
People had power, water, and all the necessities. It was no where near as bad as sudan.
IRAQ wasn't even considered a 3rd world country because their GDP was very high, thanks to their oil and other exports.
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Iraq is nothing like the sudan.
We had literally no reason to invade Iraq, all reasons we had were cooked up by Bush and Blair and It turned into a Disaster.
No where near as many people were dying as in the sudan.
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If we were to invade and create a new government, the Janjaweed would attack back, so all we'd need to do would be to set up a strong perimiter.
AS long as that perimiter holds, we're good, it would take alot of men, and probably a long time, but it would be worth it.
We wouldn't have civilians attack us, as we saw in Iraq.
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Again unlike IRaq, where things are still NOT anywhere near the quality of pre war.
People still don't have water and power in lots of areas and the rate of civilian deaths is unbelievable.
Iraq is not sudan, and i can't compare the two, not on any level.
You can blame the Iraq disaster on Bush and Blairs uneeded war, and destabalization of the country.
~~Datruth
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Sounds like you read/watch/listen to very biased left-wing media :)
Try reading up on the Al-Anfal Campaign, genocide against the Kurds in Iraq. Tens of thousands were slaughtered by Saddam for no reason other than being Kurds.
* destroyed about 4,000 villages in Iraqi Kurdistan [4]
* destroyed 1,754 schools, 270 hospitals, 2,450 mosques, 27 churches[5]
* wiped out around 90% of Kurdish villages in targeted areas.[6]
We didn't finish the job properly in the Gulf war when we should have unfortunately, then the media eye was lost and people forgot and no longer cared about what was continuing in Iraq. No different to us going into Sudan now, stopping this for a short time and then forgetting about it while it slowly continues out of the eye of the media, then going back in 10 years or so later and finishing the job.
The Janjaweed are civilians with guns. The people fighting in Iraq are civilians with guns. I don't see a difference.
"so all we'd need to do would be to set up a strong perimiter."
Yeah right, you obviously underestimate these people. This is exactly what we thought we needed to do in Iraq and it failed for the same reasons it'd fail in Sudan.
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You want to know why we lost in Iraq Xordan?
It's because we killed innocent women and children.
We also had no reason to go to war, all have been proven false.
Liberators? WE went for WMD's... which were non existant:
But, with all you people who listen to the Media ;), rather than do independant research, i present my evidence:
http://www.eggdisk.com/files/150438_o5sxd/mortalityIraq.pdf
(For the record my friend works for the Lancet and has allowed me to publish this wherever i like.
I give anyone here full permission to spread this file if they like, the only thing they may not do is sell it, which was a limitation i'm put to as well.)
Findings The risk of death was estimated to be 2·5-fold (95% CI 1·6–4·2) higher after the invasion when compared
with the preinvasion period. Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in one cluster in the city of Falluja. If we
exclude the Falluja data, the risk of death is 1·5-fold (1·1–2·3) higher after the invasion. We estimate that
98 000 more deaths than expected (8000–194 000) happened after the invasion outside of Falluja and far more if the
outlier Falluja cluster is included.
You had a 95% chance of dieing after Iraq war, than before it? What liberation is that?
We killed TEN's of THOUSANDS of innocent people!!!
Do you really think they would say, great job!
They were better off with Sadam, who killed, but no where near what we did.
Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children. The risk of death from violence in
the period after the invasion was 58 times higher (95% CI 8·1–419) than in the period before the war.
More women and children were killed than members of Al Qaeda.... some precision bombing eh?
Interpretation Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100 000 excess deaths, or more have happened
since the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces
accounted for most violent deaths.
- There was never any connection between 9/11 and iraq
- There would be no insurgents had we not destroyed the countries infrastructure and innocent people
- There were no WMD's, the main proponent for war
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4169107.stm - Even in 2006, we still don't have adequete drinking water for most of Afghanistan and Iraq
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/04/19/study_faults_us_health_effort_in_iraq_afghanistan/?rss_id=Boston.com+/+News
Study faults US health effort in Iraq, Afghanistan By Will Dunham
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has botched efforts to improve public health Iraq and Afghanistan, missing a chance to gain support in those countries, an independent report released on Wednesday said.
U.S. reconstruction efforts in Iraq following the 2003 invasion failed to maintain and improve basic sanitation and provide safe drinking water in heavily populated areas, the RAND Corp. report stated.
About 40 percent of Baghdad's water and sanitation network has been damaged since the U.S. invasion, and efforts to rebuild the crumbling and aging system have moved too slowly amid security problems and looting, the report stated.
Researchers unfavorably compared health reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan to post-World War Two efforts in Japan and Germany. However, while those countries remained calm under foreign occupation, violence in Iraq and instability in Afghanistan have hindered reconstruction projects.
There was no reason for war, not a single one, all are botched, and we did nothing but hurt the Iraqi people.
And you wonder why there are insurgents?
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AS you can see from all that i've provided you, Sudan and Iraq are nothing alike, we have a clear reason for war.
10,000 people are dying every month.
The only insurgents who would come after us would be the Janjaweed
And once governemnt support of the janjaweed was stripped, by the U.S, they would need to find funding elsewhere and would shrivel up slowly.
The civilians would side with us.
If you don't believe me, go look at pictures of U.N stations in the Sudan.
Their lives couldn't possibly get worse.
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Best part of all this, our government heads, bush and blair, lied to us to get in order to initiate the war:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2076137.ece
The Government's case for going to war in Iraq has been torn apart by the publication of previously suppressed evidence that Tony Blair lied over Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.
A devastating attack on Mr Blair's justification for military action by Carne Ross, Britain's key negotiator at the UN, has been kept under wraps until now because he was threatened with being charged with breaching the Official Secrets Act.
In the testimony revealed today Mr Ross, 40, who helped negotiate several UN security resolutions on Iraq, makes it clear that Mr Blair must have known Saddam Hussein possessed no weapons of mass destruction. He said that during his posting to the UN, "at no time did HMG [Her Majesty's Government] assess that Iraq's WMD (or any other capability) posed a threat to the UK or its interests."
Mr Ross revealed it was a commonly held view among British officials dealing with Iraq that any threat by Saddam Hussein had been "effectively contained".
He also reveals that British officials warned US diplomats that bringing down the Iraqi dictator would lead to the chaos the world has since witnessed. "I remember on several occasions the UK team stating this view in terms during our discussions with the US (who agreed)," he said.
"At the same time, we would frequently argue when the US raised the subject, that 'regime change' was inadvisable, primarily on the grounds that Iraq would collapse into chaos."
That's only a small snipit, the title of the article is, Diplomat's suppressed document lays bare the lies behind Iraq war.
Please read it all if you have time.
Don't trust the media, Ruport murdock basically owns most of it, Msnbc is owned by Microsoft, hence the MS, and CNN is owned by Time warner.
Look at their track record:
GENERAL ELECTRIC --(donated 1.1 million to GW Bush for his 2000 election campaign)
Television Holdings:
* NBC: includes 13 stations, 28% of US households.
* NBC Network News: The Today Show, Nightly News with Tom Brokaw, Meet the Press, Dateline NBC, NBC News at Sunrise.
* CNBC business television; MSNBC 24-hour cable and Internet news service (co-owned by NBC and Microsoft); Court TV (co-owned with Time Warner), Bravo (50%), A&E (25%), History Channel (25%).
The "MS" in MSNBC
means microsoft
The same Microsoft that donated 2.4 million to get GW bush elected.
DISNEY / ABC / CAP (donated 640 thousand to GW's 2000 campaign)
Television Holdings:
* ABC: includes 10 stations, 24% of US households.
* ABC Network News: Prime Time Live, Nightline, 20/20, Good Morning America.
* ESPN, Lifetime Television (50%), as well as minority holdings in A&E, History Channel and E!
* Disney Channel/Disney Television, Touchtone Television.
TIME-WARNER TBS - AOL (donated 1.6 million to GW's 2000 campaign)
America Online (AOL) acquired Time Warner–the largest merger in corporate history.
Television Holdings:
* CNN, HBO, Cinemax, TBS Superstation, Turner Network Television, Turner Classic Movies, Warner Brothers Television, Cartoon Network, Sega Channel, TNT, Comedy Central (50%), E! (49%), Court TV (50%).
* Largest owner of cable systems in the US with an estimated 13 million subscribers.
NEWS CORPORATION LTD. / FOX NETWORKS (Rupert Murdoch) (donations see bottom note)
Television Holdings:
* Fox Television: includes 22 stations, 50% of US households.
* Rupert Murdoch: Board of Directors, Philip Morris (USA).
*(Phillip Morris donated 2.9 million to George W Bush in 2000)*
They all have biased views, get the facts and get them from independent trusted organizations.
I mainly use the BBC and the AP, although the AP has a bias at times, so i always back it up with other articles.
IF this doesn't convince you the war was wrong in IRAQ, nothing will, and you will have not been open minded.
Again, as you can see, Sudan is 180 degrees different than Iraq.
And again, Do not listen to the media, Don't let them spoon feed you garbage.
~~Datruth
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Well written Datruth. I personally wish we had done away wvith Sadam when we were there the 1st time around. Admittedly the ethnic cleansing of the Kurds did actually stop on the whole after it.
We all know that the 2nd Iraq war was purely about oil and an attempt to reinvigourate the US economy. Nothing keeps your industries running better than a good war, not just military suppliers either but also other luxury products that people will buy to keep themselves happy and take their minds off the fact that people are dieing.
I'm glad that you use the BBC for your info, The british people pay an awful lot of money to get that service (TV licence fees pay for it and thats by law). And personally glad that people around the world have the oppurtunity to take advantage (steal) this service. it is one of the things im most proud of about this country.
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Actualy Datruth you are right about most things , but for some reason you don`t seem to see one obvious truth : Any foreign military intervention in Sudan will have the same desastrous outcome as the Iraq war . Nomater how just the reasons may seem from where you stand , an invasion is an invasion , nothing more and nothing less . For some reason I don`t fully understand US seems to consider themselves some sort of world-wide police force . US has no right to get involved military in other states afairs , nomater how bad things look from where you stand . That is WAR . That is the reason why US is by far the most hated nation on the globe at the moment . Keep in mind that there is allways 2 sides to a problem , and enforcing what you think is right on others will always go wrong and backfire on you . Now please don`t get me wrong , I`m compleatly against the Dafur genocide , against any form of ethnic clensing , but military action is not the way to solve issues . Remember the US war in Kosovo in 1999 ? Well i witnesed parts of that first hand , I live in Romania , that`s on the border of Serbia . In 1999 US suported what today wuld be called terorists . Albanian islamists in the Serbian province of Kosovo were"fighting" for independence ; fighting = bobming schools , markets , all sorts of civilian targets , killing christians in the name of the jihad , selfproclaming the state of Kosovo all the things we ussualy blame terrorists or insurgents for today . When the Serbian army retaliated (admitedly , a lot of albanian civilians were killed , but that`s due to the fact that tehre were no albanian "soldiers" there , and the terorists are basicaly civilians...), the US called it ethnic clensing , and steped in to "free" the country . Ofcourse that was "smart precisionbmbings" of powerplants , hospitals , bridges , roads , compleatly destroying Serbian infrastructure, and killing far more inocent civilians then soldiers . That was 1999 . Today , 2006 , there are still UN troops in Kosovo , the albanian islamist separatist still cary attacks against serbian civilians , well that`s whatever serbian civilians are left there , because most of them ran away since the UN ocupation force did nothing to protect them and the serbian army can`t do anything about it either .
But the main issue is the US "crusade" to impose "democracy" around the globe . Can`t you (US) realize how wrong that is ? You can not "impose" democracy with bombs and troops . Just let the world be it will find it`s path eventualy
Now about Dafur , yes it`s likely US will turn it`s attention twards Africa in the future , considering it can`t move it`s crusade any further in the nea east (Iran , Syria ) , since those countryes are indirectly under china and rusia`s protection . Now lets say you are right , well from where I stand you are right . US goes there and fights of those militias , eventualy the entire government . The opressed civilians will most likely side with the US..but what next? Probably revange , and revange against who? The islamists ; You will have a minority backed up by the US military fighting the "insurgents" , the leftovers
of those militias and the government . The opressed will rise to punish there opressors , and don`t think they will hesitate to give them the same treatement they recived . Civilians will die , without a government the country will go into some form of civil war and chaos , and the US will be in the center of it all...again . Understand that you cant fight insurgents and terrorists without killing civilians . They ARE civilians , the terrorist is ussualy that guy that lost his family/wife/kids....and feels he has nothing to lose , so he seeks revange in any way he can
But this is the world we live in I guess , an empire is an emipre , and it will try to expand in any way posible . It was like this since the beginings of history . The pretexts for war may change but the real reasons will allways be the same : power , wealth , and the destruction of those that don`t share your beliefes (well actually imosing your beliefes on others where that is posible)/me sips some wine and apolagi
zes for his bad english . Merry Christmas and a happy new year , may it be a better year for the world
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Isra.. do you really feel, Sudan will be better off, without U.S intervention.
Let's check those stats again, 10,000 people killed every month.
400,000 total at this point.
That's 4 times the Iraq War.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some things to consider
Pre war Iraq for the most part Has:
- Running water
- Electricity
- Plumbing
- Stability
- A Strong GDP
- Safety for most civilians
- No internal civil war
Pre war Iraq doesn't have:
- 10,000 deaths per month
- Overall Sad citizens
Pre war Sudan for the most part Does not have:
- Running water
- Electricity
- Plumbing
- Stability
- A Strong GDP(It's a poor 3rd world country)
- Safety for most civilians
Pre war Sudan Does have
- Civil war
- Government Power struggle
- 10,000 innocents dead every month
- Overall sad citizens
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tell me please
Tell me... someone....
That the Sudan can get worse.
The U.S WILL NOT HAVE 10,000 deaths EVERY MONTH!!!
Think about it isra, should the U.S go in, it would stop the killing for the most part.
And you know why there were insurgents in Iraq, BECAUSE we weren't fighting for the people, but for WMD'S which didn't turn up, and caused 100,000 IRAQI deaths.
BUT if we fight for the Sudan, we will literally stop all killings by the Janjaweed, and help stem the tide of the Genocide.
NO ONE has taken a look at the refugee camps so let me give you a refresher on how it looks over there!!!
(http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/international/pictures/sudan-chad2.jpg)
(http://static.flickr.com/10/15837023_c157ca48c0_m.jpg)
(http://www.oxfam.org.au/world/africa/sudan/images/norefuge6.jpg)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THIS IS PRE WAR IRAQ!!!
(http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/US/10/31/sprj.irq.powell.iraq/story.traffic.ap.jpg)
How in the world do you get the two mixed up?
One is a rich, prosperous nation.
The other is a 3rd world country with a civil war destroying 10,000 people a month.
That's about 357 Deaths on average each day, or 2,500 a week.
I knew people would come here and try and put the two countries together, but they are nothing alike.
Sudan is not stable, like Iraq was, and people weren't being killed left and right as we see in Sudan.
I hope you understand my point, and why we need to stop the Genocide.
It's not Yankee imperialism, we have nothing to gain from going to the Sudan.
That's why we're probably not going.
Because there is not much there for us, unlike Iraq, that had Oil, and gave us a Base in the Middle east besides Israel and quwait.
Our relations are still shaky with turkey.
We must stop this genocide, it will not end like Iraq, the people will side with us, and there will not be more than 10,000 deaths a month.
~~Datruth
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You seem to be missing my point entirely, not even reading my posts even (not that I'm reading most of yours as they're largely irrelevant). The number of deaths during Al-Anfal was greater than the number of people being killed in Dafur now. We're in exactly the same situation as we were before the gulf war. I never mentioned economic conditions or anything like that so I don't know why you brought that into it. All I am saying is that if we go into Sudan, we'll eventually have the same problems we have in Iraq now and people will whine. I don't see why you think the Janjaweed will suddenly just give up. If we do it properly (unlike the gulf war where the UN stopped us) then things might end up a bit different, but the fighting won't stop.
-
If you boil it down to purely a numbers game I would rather Sudan was in the same situation as Iraq currently is.
It was quoted on BBC News 24 that an average of 100 people a day die in Iraq since the mission was valiantly declared accomplished by George Bush. That is very clearly 3000 people per month.
If the current estimates of the deaths in the Darfur region of Sudan are accurate they are dieing at a rate of 10,000 per month.
It seems a no brainer to me.
As for the economic conditions that Datruth mentioned, I dont think they were a direct response to your post Xordan. But to me they seemed relevant. And if you looked a little closer and actually gave up a little of your time for the common courtesy of reading his posts before dismissing them you would have seen that the first word he uses actually makes it clear it is not a direct response to your posts so I dont see where your comment:
I never mentioned economic conditions or anything like that so I don't know why you brought that into it
He didnt once say that you did mention it.
-
That's 4 times the Iraq War.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some things to consider
Pre war Iraq for the most part Has:
Running water
Electricity
Plumbing
Stability
A Strong GDP
Safety for most civilians
No internal civil war
Pre war Iraq doesn't have:
10,000 deaths per month
Overall Sad citizens
Pre war Sudan for the most part Does not have:
Running water
Electricity
Plumbing
Stability
A Strong GDP(It's a poor 3rd world country)
Safety for most civilians
Pre war Sudan Does have
Civil war
Government Power struggle
10,000 innocents dead every month
Overall sad citizens
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
True for the most part . However a military US intervention in Sudan will be just as wrong as the one in Iraq . The desaster is there , it`s real and it`s ...making me question the human nature . You are right Datruth , things must be done, by me , by you by this entire %$#@* world . But the answer is not "US military to the rescue" . The answer is not another war . Sudan doesn`t have electricity , runing watter . Perhps helping them to build those would make a difference ? Understand this , even though you may think you help , you would be just starting another war . Some would say another war against Islam . Another war against some country that can`t defend it`s self . Stop the desaster curently going on there and start another one . Cause yet another increase in world wide extremism and anti-american feelings . However this thread has given me some insight in how americans see the world . It`s great to see some people care about other people . The only way to stop this kind of things imho is to educate people and change the way they relate to eachother . Not by war!! At this moment US external politics is dooing an incredible ammount of harm to the world . Stop policing the world , it`s not
your (U.S) place or right to do it
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You seem to be missing my point entirely, not even reading my posts even (not that I'm reading most of yours as they're largely irrelevant). The number of deaths during Al-Anfal was greater than the number of people being killed in Dafur now. We're in exactly the same situation as we were before the gulf war. I never mentioned economic conditions or anything like that so I don't know why you brought that into it. All I am saying is that if we go into Sudan, we'll eventually have the same problems we have in Iraq now and people will whine. I don't see why you think the Janjaweed will suddenly just give up. If we do it properly (unlike the gulf war where the UN stopped us) then things might end up a bit different, but the fighting won't stop.
As for the economic conditions that Datruth mentioned, I dont think they were a direct response to your post Xordan. But to me they seemed relevant. And if you looked a little closer and actually gave up a little of your time for the common courtesy of reading his posts before dismissing them you would have seen that the first word he uses actually makes it clear it is not a direct response to your posts so I dont see where your comment:
I never mentioned economic conditions or anything like that so I don't know why you brought that into it
He didnt once say that you did mention it.
Thank you idoru, exactly the sentiments i would have said, and i read his posts.
The least he could do is read mine.
I was speaking to Isra when i mentioned the Economic status of both countries.
I was explaining that the reason the Iraqi people are mad at us is WE destroyed their country.
Not Saddam, but us, and we killed about as many innocent people.
"Not even, reading your post even"
Too many evens in there Xordan, sounds odd ;)
How would you know if i read your post? You'd have to be here.
For the record i did read it.
Your posts said this: "Yeah right, you obviously underestimate these people. This is exactly what we thought we needed to do in Iraq and it failed for the same reasons it'd fail in Sudan."
I read that as the theme of your post.
And i responded to it's theme, showing that Iraq and Sudan are very much different.
And dismissing their economies, as not impacting their futures, would make an economist faint, they might say that's the most important factor.
Your original thread insinuated the same thing xordan:
What's happening in Darfur now isn't much different to what happened in Iraq (to the Kurds as one example) pre-invasion. If the USA invaded Sudan to stop this, we'd have the same situation as we have in Iraq now and people would be whining just as much.
We would not have the same situation.
Al-qaeda and insurgents, Backed by Iran, that's why they keep killing U.S troops.
Janjaweed, Destruction of governement, WHo would back them?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now to address what you really meant, my Iraq war tirade.
You said this:
Sounds like you read/watch/listen to very biased left-wing media Smiley
Try reading up on the Al-Anfal Campaign, genocide against the Kurds in Iraq. Tens of thousands were slaughtered by Saddam for no reason other than being Kurds.
* destroyed about 4,000 villages in Iraqi Kurdistan [4]
* destroyed 1,754 schools, 270 hospitals, 2,450 mosques, 27 churches[5]
* wiped out around 90% of Kurdish villages in targeted areas.[6]
You were replying to my post, which theme was this:
Again unlike IRaq, where things are still NOT anywhere near the quality of pre war.
People still don't have water and power in lots of areas and the rate of civilian deaths is unbelievable.
Iraq is not sudan, and i can't compare the two, not on any level.
You can blame the Iraq disaster on Bush and Blairs uneeded war, and destabalization of the country.
You were saying:
Hey sadam killed the Kurds
How dare you say that's not a good reason for war. :@#\
I said....
Guess what.
It's not a good reason for war.[insert long post here with all evidence]
Thank you for not replying to [long post here with all evidence]
Thank you for not reading all of [long post here with all evidence]
Your sentiments will be met equally.
Sudan is a good reason for war.[insert economic post here and 10,000 dead each month]
[insert pre war conditions of Sudan]
[insert witty joke about how sudan can't get any worse]
Pre war sudan... is bad... really bad... how in the world.. could it get worse?
So now you see how the posts came together and why i wrote what i did.
You can use the information i provided to make informative decisions about the Sudan's future.
Or you can continue to say, Sudan=Iraq, with zero facts and evidence.
Oh and your kurdish deaths, again, not a good reason for war with Iraq, that horse has been beaten to death.
~~Datruth
EDIT:
Response to Isra:
But the answer is not "US military to the rescue" . The answer is not another war .
Another war against some country that can`t defend it`s self . Stop the desaster curently going on there and start another one . Cause yet another increase in world wide extremism and anti-american feelings .
The only way to stop this kind of things imho is to educate people and change the way they relate to eachother . Not by war!!
Your sentiments, as i read them were:
Don't have a war, your going to start another problem.
I ask for proof where we helped a country like Sudan, and it collapsed?
Where a civil war was going on, we stopped it, and the people fought us to death?
When did we ever go through that?
Germany anyone? That was a success. Japan? Yes success as well. Poland? Yes we did well there too.
No civil wars there, but we had wars with them, and they are successes today thanks to U.S intervention.
We owe japan more money than every other nation, but china.
I hate to mention this, but Quwait owes us a bit too ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I like how you said, education is the key.
Long term key yes, short term no.
Education takes Decades, it could take a Century before the people are all getting food and water and have time for eduction.
Also you can't have education without your Needs, i refer to evidence of that thanks to Maslow:
Remember the 5 steps to Human Actualization
Also known as Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs:
(http://staff.gc.maricopa.edu/~jpell/blackboard/MASLOW.JPG)
(http://www.ruralhealth.utas.edu.au/comm-lead/images/Maslows-needs-Pyramid.jpg)
Education is subservient to food, shelter, water, and safety.
Right now... They have very little food, water, shelter, and no safety.
Education is not the key, education comes when Safety, water, food, and shelter have been provided.
You need to fill up your NEEDS(safety, food, shelter, water) before you can have your wants(education).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So isra, i ask you, i plead with you my friend....
What do you want us to do, you are the head of any government you want, be it the U.S if you so wish.
What should be done?
Education? Impossible, as i've already mentioned.
What would you propose?
HOW would you bring stability?
I now yield to you. I'd like to hear Xordan's idea, if he has one, maybe he can stabilize the region without military intervention.
For me, i say, if at any time there was a need for war... this is the time.
~~Datruth.... (my fingers are dying..lol ;D :D) {My 777th post, one that i'm very fond of i must say!! :thumbup:}
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All I am saying is that if we go into Sudan, we'll eventually have the same problems we have in Iraq now and people will whine. I don't see why you think the Janjaweed will suddenly just give up. If we do it properly (unlike the gulf war where the UN stopped us) then things might end up a bit different, but the fighting won't stop.
I think this is a crucial issue to consider. Death tolls aside, the after effects of "solving the problem" seem to always result horribly. That is, with our current foreign policy.
Since the begining of the Iraq war, the US has concerned itself mostly with regime change in target countries. I'm not sure why the Bush Admin. decided to focus on this so much, but the successfull democratization of Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan in WWII might be a factor.
According to an renown political figure, Mr. Jowitt, regime change has been viewed as a magic bullet by our president. As something that will cleanse Iraq, that will solve all of its problems. Ripping out the bad, and healing the wounds of war.
Unfortunately, our obsession with regime change has become something like a "poison dart" where we have gone into a culturally unstable location and implemented the most culturally taxing form of government upon the people, after ravaging its infrastructure.
Okay, but what about Sudan?
So, in terms of the Sudan crisis, I think that US intervention is needed, but only if we revise our foreign policy to be less concerned with regime change and ideal implemtion; it needs to be more life and human rights oriented.
As for the inevitable perpetuation of fighting... I just don't like it, but I suppose it's hard to avoid. But the first step towards getting less of it is if the world's superpower stops trying to expand it's ideologies around the world, in places that never called for them and have bigger problems than not being able to vote.
And now to dance to Daft Punk. \\o//