PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Parallo on January 02, 2007, 07:49:55 pm
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I'm not going into RL debates but I'm sure everyone here has at one point or another come across an rp that involves the spirit of a person leaving the body. Should that happen in PS. Currently science does not hold definate answers in RL because there is no way to 'test' the afterlife. Here we have that ability but the body phisicaly travels to the death realm which just muddies the waters further. What PS needs is a definate answer as it is a vital part of the settings. I would not want, for example, to commit a crime while possesed by another character and be punished in a way that would remould my character when it is entirely plausible and logical that that can't happen. I wouldn't want a character wasted on an invalid rp. What is your opinion (In PS, not RL theology?)
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I believe that it has been stated that the spirits of the regular citizens in Yliakum move on, and do not reincarnate. But our characters respawn in the Death Realm, their spirit recorpreating because we are "heros" or some such.
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I thought I read somewhere that the body is phisicaly transported to the death realm. That would mean that at no point is the spirit seperate from the body in a natural life. What I mean to ask is are the body and the spirit two seperate things in PS or is the body the person and their chemical and biological make up that makes up who s/he is.
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My understanding is that everyone's spirit goes to the death realm, but only a few ever find their way out.
Our bodies do not travel to the death realm. They're treated as trash and are thrown down garbage chutes such as the stone face.
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An answer to a question in the Q&A.
In the realm of death you have your body with you - spirit and body are both transferred there. In fact you disappear from the living world. The laws of Death Realm are pretty strange and vary from place to place. You cannot "die" in Death Realm, but you can be incapacitated and teleported to a random place (usually the entrance).
According to this the body also travels. It also says "spirit and body" so I guess that answers that. Now the next question. Should it be possible for the spirit to leave the body, inhabiting another body?
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Our bodies MUST travel to the death realm because all our equipment goes with us to the death realm. Indeed, we can sell things to the Death Guardian and obtain money for that which comes with us to the death realm. (He would not need to buy/sell anything if we just went there spiritually.) When we exit the death realm, all our equiment is intact.
The only thing that goes against this philosophy is the existence of "sentient" NPCs that drop items (rogues, gladiators, etc.?) Their items do not travel to the death realm, and nobody will ever find a rogue or gladiator there. Should we assume that rogues and gladiators are "regular" folk who won't get to the death realm, and us PCs who started as peasants are the "heroes"? I'm not so sure that's a good idea.
I don't really have a good solution, though.
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All folk go to the death realm. Its game mecanics that you raise as a point. Weather items travel with us or not means noting to the settings.
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I guess we have another contradiction.
Ducts that have been dug out in the rock are used to dispose of human waste. Larger rubbish and bodies are simply thrown into almost vertical and apparently endless wells. Nobody seems to care about where all of this junk finally ends up, since the stalactite theory is only devised by some Xacha scientists and has not been proven yet. Dead bodies are eliminated the same way. Though discarding dead in such a callous fashion would seem rather shocking, neither of the two main faiths at Yliakum requires particular care nor reverence to dead bodies. To the people here, a body is simply a non-functional apparatus or an empty shell with no soul.
http://www.planeshift.it/setting_overview.html
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My comment was based (partly) on remembering a post of Karyuu's over here:
The Death Realm is a mysterious and dangerous place - "peasants" or normal people do not escape it at all. Our characters do because they are supposed to be "heroes" and smart geniuses for whom the dark god relented. You shouldn't roleplay death as if it's nothing - just because it's nothing at the moment due to an incomplete game doesn't mean that your characters should feel as you do.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=25330.msg280964#msg280964
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Perhaps the bodies simply disappear after some time instead of the "immediately" we have now.
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So which is it? Does the body travel to the death realm or is it disposed of in chutes?
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Perhaps the bodies simply disappear after some time instead of the "immediately" we have now.
Maybe
There was that answer from Talad in the Q&A and it made it kind of sure now.
But dig through some old PS news sections before CB and you will see what was the concept back then. It's a pity it was appearently changed, and maybe you even remember the old idea, Karyuu ;)
Zanzibar: I'm disappointed too.
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So which is it? Does the body travel to the death realm or is it disposed of in chutes?
It could be that the body is disposed, and then disappears some days later. I don't see why this can't be the case when you mix the two concepts together :] I think this may be a question for the QA though, just to be sure.
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But would the body not be damaged from the fall. Too damaged to walk I'd imagine.
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Unless you are fully restored of any damage upon incarnation to the DR?
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Well if I read the posts the most logical solution I think of, that might sound rather artificial, would be that we as "heroes"go to the deathrealm and take our bodies with us by the power of the deathgod or something, but seeing peasants go to another place they don't take their bodies with them.
As for the bodies restoring injuries wouldn't that be rather obvious? I mean you did die. Without restoring health you would simply die again right after spawning.
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As it is now, it's impossible for me to make sense of the DR roleplay wise, and I don't see a way how a deathrealm could ever work. If someone dies, should we be shocked? If someone returnes from the death, should we be amazed? If so, then how often should we be shocked or amazed? Even if only heroes are supposed to be able to escape the DR, in practice there always will be so many "heroes" that it will be impossible to keep acting like it's something rare. Should we talk about every regular player as if it was a mystical genius who has come back from the deathrealm over ten times?
Being able to take your stuff to the deathrealm and sell it there and bring back the trias makes it even stranger.
I understand that the deathrealm is planned to become much larger, to become a fully fledged alternative world in which "evil" characters could reside. However, I don't see how that would change anything though. There will always be people, who want to get back to their friends in the world of the living as soon as possible. If we would make the DR very big, and escaping it very time consuming, the positive thing would be that it would make people less riskless and make dying and returning from the death less common. On the flip side, this is a game, besides realistic it also has to be fun. IMO keeping people for a longer period of time in places where they don't want to be simply insn't fun. Especially for new players who tend to die more often because they yet have to find the limits of what their character can handle, and are usually more clumsy with falling from steep slopes.
Right now, new players easily can spend two hours in the DR to find the exit from a place where they don't chose to be in the first place. Some are even making new chars each time they die. If you consider that, we can only guess how many new players will even stop playing PS because of the deathrealm if it becomes much larger.
My suggestion would be to change the deathrealm into a coma-realm. People who "die" don't die but get into a coma instead, and have to fight a mental battle which is finding the exit of the coma-realm. When you find the exit, you should get back to the place where you "died", rather then to a fixed spawn point. Everything done and said in the coma-realm should be forgotten by the char, and to other characters it would be like you didn't even die but just escaped death by an inch. We are all heroes, we don't ever die, but our chars don't know that on before hand and should fear death in a normal way. More or less like movie heroes do. This system also leaves possibilities for others to cast spells on the "death" body, either to bring it back to life instantly with a minimum amount of hps, or to give him more strength so he can progress through the deathrealm with more speed or something like that. That way it can be RPd as if your life has been saved by a friend, which is fun.
The contradiction Zanzibar found gives me the feeling that the devs don't have a detailed, flashed out idea about what the DR should become and how it should work. I hope they find a creative solution.
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Another interesting fact is that all the NPCs in the Death Realm refer to you as "Spirit", (I forget the exact phrasing, but I definately remember that...) which would imply that you are bodiless... (Unless 'spirit', in this sense, is just a word for someone who has died, and not an actual incoporeal person)
So which is it? Does the body travel to the death realm or is it disposed of in chutes?
It could be that the body is disposed, and then disappears some days later. I don't see why this can't be the case when you mix the two concepts together :] I think this may be a question for the QA though, just to be sure.
Not to be picky, but doesn't that kinda defy the law of thermodynamics (matter cannot be created or destroyed)? Unless the body turned into vapour, and then the vapour somehow managed to re-form back into a body at your spawn-point with all your items intact...
Personally, I like Hitman's idea a lot. The coma thing would be more interesting, less cliched and make a LOT more sense.
Maybe being exposed to the constant, energizing light of the Azure Sun (which is connected to the Crystal Way anyway) provides all us 'heroes' with faster healing, which would explain why a) we regain HP so fast, and b) why it's nearly impossible to kill us permanently.
The 'coming back to life' thing is gigantically flawed, and not interesting or innovative enough to compensate...
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We best not open the "doesn't that defy" box. ;D
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We best not open the "doesn't that defy" box. ;D
Good point...
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Another interesting fact is that all the NPCs in the Death Realm refer to you as "Spirit", (I forget the exact phrasing, but I definately remember that...) which would imply that you are bodiless... (Unless 'spirit', in this sense, is just a word for someone who has died, and not an actual incoporeal person)
Not necessarily. Some people think of other human beings as the spirit that represents their conciousness instead of the bodies which give them physical form. For instance, I am talking to your spirit, not to your body, even though it is your body that is infront of me.
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I thought I read somewhere that the death realm was an actual place, the lowest level under the inhabitable levels. So when you die and get thrown down the well you eventually end up in the DR. If this was true it could be a force of will to reattach you spirit to your body instead of passing on. I don't know where I might have seen this, perhaps it was on the wiki or something. This is the general impression I had. This is why burial is a capital offense, if your body never makes it to the DR you cannot reclaim it and return to life or is that another misapprehension?
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I thought I read somewhere that the death realm was an actual place, the lowest level under the inhabitable levels.
Try to find a source for that. From the concept drawings I've seen, what's under the lowest level is just an empty cavern. An incredibly huge cavern, but still a cavern.
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Be that as it may, bilbous' idea makes more sense than the bunch of contradicting ones floating about at the moment.
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I don't know it might have even been on these forums somewhere but I do not have time to try and track it down. I don't think it is an original idea from me but if it is PS is welcome to it.
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I thought I read somewhere that the death realm was an actual place, the lowest level under the inhabitable levels. So when you die and get thrown down the well you eventually end up in the DR. If this was true it could be a force of will to reattach you spirit to your body instead of passing on. I don't know where I might have seen this, perhaps it was on the wiki or something. This is the general impression I had. This is why burial is a capital offense, if your body never makes it to the DR you cannot reclaim it and return to life or is that another misapprehension?
That is actually the best explanation for the Death Realm I heard so far.
You die and remain inside your body, unable to do a thing of course. People come and toss your body down the burial wells which lets it end up in a dark place where a Death Guardian will regenerate your body and revives you. Luckily a one way portal to the surface of Yliakum exists somewhere in that Death Realm.
Works for me.
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I thought I read somewhere that the death realm was an actual place, the lowest level under the inhabitable levels. So when you die and get thrown down the well you eventually end up in the DR. If this was true it could be a force of will to reattach you spirit to your body instead of passing on. I don't know where I might have seen this, perhaps it was on the wiki or something. This is the general impression I had. This is why burial is a capital offense, if your body never makes it to the DR you cannot reclaim it and return to life or is that another misapprehension?
That is actually the best explanation for the Death Realm I heard so far.
You die and remain inside your body, unable to do a thing of course. People come and toss your body down the burial wells which lets it end up in a dark place where a Death Guardian will regenerate your body and revives you. Luckily a one way portal to the surface of Yliakum exists somewhere in that Death Realm.
Works for me.
Plus it saves the developers from designing the death god we know nothing about.
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What do you mean, saves? All that work for nothing now..? :P
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What do you mean, saves? All that work for nothing now..? :P
No offence, but you did work? This entire thread was clearing up the developers' inconsistancies on the death realm. ;)
And that's a bad area to be inconsistant at...
Dead Person: So.... this is the Death Realm. Yikes! These rocks are hot!
Death Guardian: Uhh.... You're a spirit, you can't feel pain.
Dead Person: Oh, so I do not exist in the physical realm.
Death Guardian: Right. I'll buy your things now.
Dead Person: But how can I sell you stuff if I have no body?
Guardian: Uhhh... I don't know.... Maybe your things are physical but your body's a spirit. Wait, no, that wouldn't work... maybe you are a physical being. But I know that your body's been dumped down a chute....
Person: Still don't have an answer...
Guardian: I DON'T KNOW! BLAME THE DEVELOPERS!
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I don't think there are as many inconsistencies as you make it out to be - just not everything has a public answer yet, and if there are questions, they belong in the Q&A :]
Darkmoon has spent a lot of time working on the DR as the Settings team leader.
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*nods* The problem is not that the settings were created with a lot of holes in it. The problem is that the Devs don't share much of the settings with us :P
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and what is shared make us think something else all the time. We don't know in what believe
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Believe in Drey. Drey is god. ;)
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In daggerfall, there are no dragons, but there are dragon whelps all over the place. Except for this one quest, given to you by a NPC who is a dragon. But you can't attack him.
Wait a minute, a talking dragon!
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I thought I read somewhere that the death realm was an actual place, the lowest level under the inhabitable levels. So when you die and get thrown down the well you eventually end up in the DR. If this was true it could be a force of will to reattach you spirit to your body instead of passing on. I don't know where I might have seen this, perhaps it was on the wiki or something. This is the general impression I had. This is why burial is a capital offense, if your body never makes it to the DR you cannot reclaim it and return to life or is that another misapprehension?
i also read that somewhere.. im going to look around.. its def. on the forums
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it may have been in game talking to a mage in the DR or possibly in one of the now missing books at jayose'
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it may have been in game talking to a mage in the DR or possibly in one of the now missing books at jayose'
it WAS in the online site guide @ planshift.it BUT it was changed to "nothing much is knonw about dr".. i think a change is inorder... that way.. ppl can rp the lag they get when loading.. or just cant move ;)
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Not necessarily. Some people think of other human beings as the spirit that represents their conciousness instead of the bodies which give them physical form. For instance, I am talking to your spirit, not to your body, even though it is your body that is infront of me.
Uh-huh. Even if there are people like that in Planeshift, I think it's safer to assume that the people in the Death Realm are calling you a spirit because you're a spirit, not because they all happen to be new-age hippies that don't acknowledge a body as being a part of one's self.
Ishtar; LMAO.
Darkmoon has spent a lot of time working on the DR as the Settings team leader.
Well, tell him to get off his lazy arse and divulge some of those secrets 'fore we get riotous. :P
And if he doesn't listen, seduce him. and video-tape it
EmF out. (ooh, I like that acronym...)
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Well, tell him to get off his lazy arse and divulge some of those secrets 'fore we get riotous. :P
And if he doesn't listen, seduce him. and video-tape it
lol... funny..
i think that the orig. dumping of the bodies into a well leading to dr would be the best.. maybe we have a vote on it?
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Not necessarily. Some people think of other human beings as the spirit that represents their conciousness instead of the bodies which give them physical form. For instance, I am talking to your spirit, not to your body, even though it is your body that is infront of me.
Uh-huh. Even if there are people like that* in Planeshift, I think it's safer to assume that the people in the Death Realm are calling you a spirit because you're a spirit, not because they all happen to be new-age hippies* that don't acknowledge a body as being a part of one's self.
*Christians
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Not necessarily. Some people think of other human beings as the spirit that represents their conciousness instead of the bodies which give them physical form. For instance, I am talking to your spirit, not to your body, even though it is your body that is infront of me.
Uh-huh. Even if there are people like that* in Planeshift, I think it's safer to assume that the people in the Death Realm are calling you a spirit because you're a spirit, not because they all happen to be new-age hippies* that don't acknowledge a body as being a part of one's self.
*Christians
You're joking, right? I have never met a Christian who called me a 'Spirit', that's for damn sure, and I've met a lot of Christians...
And even still, think it's safer to assume that the people in the Death Realm are calling you a spirit because you're a spirit, not because they all happen to be Christians :P
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Chriastians are Duelists and believe what Zanz said. They believe that the spirt and body are entirely seperate. Christian is one example. You also have Jews muslims etc.
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Chriastians are Duelists and believe what Zanz said. They believe that the spirt and body are entirely seperate. Christian is one example. You also have Jews muslims etc.
Re-read my post (said in a non-snotty way :P). I never said Christians don't believe that, I'm saying that the Death Guardian is most likely not a Christian. And besides that, Christians generally don't call people 'Spirits'.
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Aye, its a given that Christians are unlikely to feature in PS. I'm saying its not all that strange a belief. They may not call you spirit but they believe they are talking to a spirit.
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Aye, its a given that Christians are unlikely to feature in PS. I'm saying its not all that strange a belief. They may not call you spirit but they believe they are talking to a spirit.
Well, now that you mention it, I'd be hard-pressed to think of a religion that didn't believe that. It's just the way Zanzibar worded it... :P
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Those of you looking for the next four pages that were here, please take a look at the split thread (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27205.0).